189 replies to this topic

[iBond]

How is it that Connery, Moore, Dalton and even Craig did films based off the books? I mean, I know not all of the movies...probably half of them are somewhat accurate to the writings that Fleming did-let's not forget Quantum of Solace-, but in terms of what to base the story off of and what to change...it's just a little messed up that all of the films starring Pierce Brosnan were completely original with original characters. I guess they felt it not important to base books off of Fleming's other novels or even the ones that were written by other authors following his death. I feel that if Brosnan had done a film that was directly based off a novel, it would give him a better reputation as 007. Anyway, the only things that I can think of that gave at least a nod to Ian Fleming, was the title GoldenEye, which was based off of Fleming's beach house Goldeneye where he wrote his novels, and the small scene in Die Another Day where he picks up the "Birds of the West Indies" novel by James Bond. It just kind of sucks. I mean, I guess Licence to Kill was the first time an original story was made out of scratch, but at least that included some scenes from Fleming's "Live and Let Die" and "The Hildebrand Rarity", but over all was an original story in and of itself, but by the time GoldenEye came along...dang, everything was just written on their own. This tradition is continued with Quantum of Solace, but I guess that title was from one of Fleming's books....even though nothing else was used in the short story.

I mean, the name Die Another Day just seemed...I don't know...like they squeezed something out at the last minute. That is not to say that I don't like the films, but I just think it could have been...thought out a little more is all.

[JimmyBond]

The World is Not Enough was established as Bond's family motto in the novel (and film) On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

So there you go, another Fleming connection.

[iBond]

True...

[jaguar007]

[size="3"][color="#FFA500"][font="Palatino Linotype"]How is it that Connery, Moore, Dalton and even Craig did films based off the books?

Don't forget Laz

I would not say it is "unfair" for Brosnan, maybe unfortunate. By the time Brosnan was cast, they had really used up Fleming's books. EON did not get the rights to film CR until 1999, so that was not an option until toward the end of Brosnan's run.

[iBond]

Don't forget Laz

Oh, oops! Yeah, I forgot about him. Sorry George!

Well, even though Eon didn't get the rights until 1999, I'm glad they pushed for one more Brosnan film before his time was up. In addition, I'm sure it would be a pain to find a new Bond and have it all done before 2002.

Edited by iBond, 18 March 2011 - 03:15 AM.

[jaguar007]

Well, even though Eon didn't get the rights until 1999, I'm glad they pushed for one more Brosnan film before his time was up.

I certainly would not say EON 'pushed' for one more film with Brosnan. It is fairly common knowledge that Barbara and Pierce did not get along and it was Sean Bean that she wanted to cast as Bond in GE. It was John Calley of MGM who pretty much insisted on Brosnan. I think the reason she was able to recast for CR was because of the involvement of Sony and Amy Pascal.

[WhatMeWorry?]

I don't feel Pierce was robbed of any Fleming elements. Die Another Day has many connections to the Moonraker novel, arguably more than the 1979 film does.

[Jump James]

Couldn't/wasn't this being discussed in the PB thread you already started IBond?Edit: My mistake, you cant see the sub headers when viewing the forums on a phone.

Edited by Jump James, 18 March 2011 - 08:17 AM.

[00Twelve]

Goldeneye and Die Another Day both have strong inspiration from Fleming's Moonraker (as WhatMeWorry mentioned above).

The novel featured an ex-Nazi posing as an upright multimillionaire British knight who'd had half his face severely scarred in his own bomb during the war when he'd been infiltrating a British unit, who created a nuclear rocket that could reach any enemy of England in Europe but was secretly meant to target London itself as Drax's revenge. The novel features a bridge game that plays more like a duel at the social club called Blades before moving to the coasts of dover while Bond allies with Gala Brand, a Special Branch agent infiltrating Drax's organization. Let's look at the films now.

Goldeneye:

- The villain is Alec Trevelyan, a former 00 who fakes his death in the explosion of a Soviet weapons facility (one which scarred half his face) only to come back years later to target London with a weapon that delivers the same EMP that would come from a nuclear bomb, and reveals that he hated the English government and always wanted to exact revenge for the treatment of his cossack parents.

Die Another Day:

- The villain is Colonel Moon, a North Korean who fakes his death in Bond's attack only to get plastic surgery and come back as an upright billionaire British knight (Gustav Graves) who uses his wealth to create a solar energy device that is secretly meant to destroy the enemies of North Korea as an act of revenge.

- Drax had a crew of former Nazis led by his closest confidant, Willy Krebs. Graves' closest confidant was his fellow North Korean second in command, Zao.

- Graves' PR person is a woman whom we believe is secretly on assignment as an undercover MI6 agent that allies herself with Bond (the only difference being the twist that she really is with Graves). Fun fact: Her name was originally to be Gala Brand. Bond, however, does end up with another female government agent working to take down Graves.

- Graves and Bond engage in a more literal duel at a London social club called Blades, but ostensibly as just a sporting fencing match.

Both movies feature adaptations of Drax and Die Another Day is (sadly) probably the closest we'll ever get to a literary adaptation of Moonraker. That's not to say I don't appreciate EON's Moonraker, I love it to death. And there's more in there from the novel than it generally gets credit for.

Tomorrow Never Dies is not adapted from a novel, per se, but follows on the well established tradition of the megalomaniac starting WWIII to gain control in the aftermath, so it is in a sense a traditional adaptation of those original stories featuring those types of baddies.

[marktmurphy]

Yeah, DAD is very Moonraker, to the extent that Frost's name was changed from Gala Brand at the last minute. There's even various MI6 reports from the movie with Brand's name on in the London Film Museum.

[David_M]

I got the impression that at the time, they just weren't interested in using any "Fleming" elements. There were -- and I think still are -- plenty of unused bits and pieces of the novels left over from films that had used Fleming's titles and almost nothing else, but at the time EON seemed more interested in turning out the live-action equivalents of video games.

I would, however, hesitate to apply a phrase like "completely original" to the Brosnan films. They weren't averse to borrowing material, they just chose to borrow it from the earlier films instead of the novels.

[Dustin]

The films always were open to influences from outside; for tributes and parodies. Sometimes openly, such as the Lawrence-from-Arabia/Magnificent-Seven moments in TSWLM and MR. And sometimes borrowing whole sequences/scenes from earlier films. And not always earlier Bond films either. For example the climb to Saint Cyril's monastry when Bond takes out the guard by throwing his piton is directly lifted from an old James Stewart Western where he takes out the enemy by throwing his spurs. It's baffling that they sampled so much, yet left such vast potential as the canon offers nearly untouched after LTK.

Edited by Dustin, 18 March 2011 - 07:05 PM.

[M_Balje]

The world is not enough is based on a element from the FYEO novel, because of Bernard Lee his death not yused in FYEO. M having a connection with the havelocks in the orginal storie, for Twine M have a connection with the King family.

The only way i agree with the topic starter is if i look to QOS. Then i mean the Connery, but in specialy Roger Moore elements. For example a small thing like Mathis his girlfriend. But in specialy TMND is made at something to QOS like Twine did this for CR. But QOS wins.

I think the best Bond movie of DC stil must release with Bond 23. His era is suport by the Pierce Brosnan era and Brosnan his movies are moost of the time standalone movies whyle DC all his three movies aren't. Bond 23 location be in TMND a litle part of a plot element.

[iBond]

Goldeneye and Die Another Day both have strong inspiration from Fleming's Moonraker (as WhatMeWorry mentioned above).

The novel featured an ex-Nazi posing as an upright multimillionaire British knight who'd had half his face severely scarred in his own bomb during the war when he'd been infiltrating a British unit, who created a nuclear rocket that could reach any enemy of England in Europe but was secretly meant to target London itself as Drax's revenge. The novel features a bridge game that plays more like a duel at the social club called Blades before moving to the coasts of dover while Bond allies with Gala Brand, a Special Branch agent infiltrating Drax's organization. Let's look at the films now.

Goldeneye:

- The villain is Alec Trevelyan, a former 00 who fakes his death in the explosion of a Soviet weapons facility (one which scarred half his face) only to come back years later to target London with a weapon that delivers the same EMP that would come from a nuclear bomb, and reveals that he hated the English government and always wanted to exact revenge for the treatment of his cossack parents.

Die Another Day:

- The villain is Colonel Moon, a North Korean who fakes his death in Bond's attack only to get plastic surgery and come back as an upright billionaire British knight (Gustav Graves) who uses his wealth to create a solar energy device that is secretly meant to destroy the enemies of North Korea as an act of revenge.

You know, I never considered this connection. Pretty cool!

[Royal Dalton]

Yeah, DAD is very Moonraker, to the extent that Frost's name was changed from Gala Brand at the last minute. There's even various MI6 reports from the movie with Brand's name on in the London Film Museum.

At least that's something we can be grateful to Halle Berry for.

Shame they never did a proper version of Moonraker. They could still do it now, with someone like Brian Cox in the Drax role (renamed, of course). Doubt it will ever happen, though.

[sharpshooter]

I view TWINE's Spanish torture chair as the Brosnan era equivalent of CR.

[Royal Dalton]

And Elektra King was 'inspired' by Vesper Lynd.

Slightly jumped the gun there, didn't they.

[Mr_Wint]

It is fairly common knowledge that Barbara and Pierce did not get along (...)

I must have missed that.

[Agent Sidewinder]

DAD has the plot of Moonraker the book and the OTT factor of Moonraker the film. And lacks the strengths of either.

Although the thread title is valid (I've seen footballs that take less of a kicking than Brosnan) I'm not entirely sure a lack of source material - ignoring the MR connections - is to blame. A good story is a good story, irrelevant of where its roots lie.

[Dell Deaton]

It's always been my impression that Tomorrow Never Dies and The World Is Not Enough are two of the all-time strongest films in the Eon Productions 007 film franchise. No issues with the material.

For those who were around and followers at the time, there was a strong desire to have him play James Bond (even before Timothy Dalton was cast) and he was very well-received in the role. In fact, many came to acknowledge that they'd grossly underestimated him through assumptions that he couldn't do 007 as anything other than as a Remington Steele.

That said, I came to this Thread with the thought that he's gotten "a bad rap" based on how he left the role. Regardless of who we believe as to why and how, it was unexpected. And with that came a certain bias toward feeling that Pierce Brosnan had to be invalidated in order to validate, accept Daniel Craig in the role. That's unfortunate. As someone whose first association was Sean Connery, I never had a problem seeing Roger Moore in the role, albeit differently. But maybe it does harken back to the apparently requisite disclaimer that comes with praise for any successor-actor, "yeah, even though he's no Sean Connery, he's great in that...."

[David Schofield]

It is fairly common knowledge that Barbara and Pierce did not get along (...)

I must have missed that.

Quite, because if it's true Miss Broccoli really is one hard-headed so and so.

I have no reason to disbelieve she wanted Bean as opposed to Brosnan for GE; Bean-Bond is clearly a Craig-Bond prototype. Sadly, she didn't then have the balls of steel or financial negotiating strength back in the mid-90s to tell Calley where to get off with his stipulation of Brosnan and insist on Bean instead.

By the mid-00s, of course, things had changed. SHE could call the shots, and insist on her rougher, made-over Bond...

... thanks to the massive financial success of DAD, and its predecessors. That success due to the huge popularity as James Bond of... Pierce Brosnan!

Yes, Pierce YOU allowed Dan Craig to be James Bond, just Tim Dalton couldn't pave the way for Sean Bean.

"Yes," said BB, "Pierce's films make huge amounts of money and leave me obscenely wealthy. I can't find anything to like about him..."

[Turn]

I'm not sure this thread is going where it was intended to. Looking at the majority of the films in this series and many of them early on had little to do with Fleming aside from a title and a few names of the characters and maybe some settings. YOLT was a major example of them throwing out just about everything from the novel early on.

TWSWLM was stipulated by Fleming that it could have nothing to do with the novel aside from the title. Was there anything in AVTAK that had anything to do with a Fleming story aside from the abbreviated title?

So does the title Die Another Day not having been created from the mind of Fleming damage Brosnan's reputation as Bond? This just seems like an excuse to create another poor Pierce got screwed during his era in retrospect thread when he was seen as nothing short of a saviour back in the mid '90s although his four films were very successful, at least in terms of their reception by audiences and critics for the most part.

I can't speak for Bond purists. But even they will vouch that the films have had relatively little to do with Fleming for the most part.

[Dell Deaton]

... I can't speak for Bond purists. But even they will vouch that the films have had relatively little to do with Fleming for the most part.

If we look critically across all the films, I'm going to guess that the 2006 Casino Royale would clearly fall into this category as well.

[TheREAL008]

... I can't speak for Bond purists. But even they will vouch that the films have had relatively little to do with Fleming for the most part.

If we look critically across all the films, I'm going to guess that the 2006 Casino Royale would clearly fall into this category as well.

Not quite.

With some obvious, but small exceptions; almost all of the novel is included in the cinematic Royale.

Sean Bean probably would have made a better Bond than Bronsan. But that's just my opinion.

Edited by TheREAL008, 19 March 2011 - 04:54 PM.

[iBond]

DAD has the plot of Moonraker the book and the OTT factor of Moonraker the film. And lacks the strengths of either.

Although the thread title is valid (I've seen footballs that take less of a kicking than Brosnan) I'm not entirely sure a lack of source material - ignoring the MR connections - is to blame. A good story is a good story, irrelevant of where its roots lie.

I'm not saying that since they aren't based off books that they are better. Not at all. Sorry you got that impression. I was just stating the fact that the stories were indeed original and not based off of the books. Heck, I thought The World Is Not Enough was a great story and that wasn't a novel. So, yeah. I was just making a statement.

[TheREAL008]

The real culprits (to me) are Purvis and Wade, and it shows because from Goldeneye - Die Another Day, the writing quality for the films gradually decline. Why they weren't sacked after DAD remains a mystery.

They share half of the blame in my eyes on why Bronsan's outings are inferior.

[JimmyBond]

The real culprits (to me) are Purvis and Wade, and it shows because from Goldeneye - Die Another Day, the writing quality for the films gradually decline. Why they weren't sacked after DAD remains a mystery.

They share half of the blame in my eyes on why Bronsan's outings are inferior.

I hope you aren't implying that Purvis and Wade wrote all four of Brosnan's films. I would think you'd know better than that.

[David Schofield]

The real culprits (to me) are Purvis and Wade, and it shows because from Goldeneye - Die Another Day, the writing quality for the films gradually decline. Why they weren't sacked after DAD remains a mystery.

They share half of the blame in my eyes on why Bronsan's outings are inferior.

Haven't those who've been lucky enough to have seen it said that the P&W CR script - sans Haggis - is better than the final screen version?

Isn't the finale - Vesper's simple suicide and note to Bond, avoiding th excess of the Venice collapsing house - and the Bond-Vesper meeting - devoid of Haggis ridiculous dialogue bollocks - thought to be of a higher callibre?

Strange when you consider some of the bilge P&W forced Brosnan to spout.

[Royal Dalton]

There were rumours that some crew members thought he'd got a bit too big for his boots on the last film.

[David Schofield]

[
Quite, because if it's true Miss Broccoli really is one hard-headed so and so.

I have no reason to disbelieve she wanted Bean as opposed to Brosnan for GE; Bean-Bond is clearly a Craig-Bond prototype. Sadly, she didn't then have the balls of steel or financial negotiating strength back in the mid-90s to tell Calley where to get off with his stipulation of Brosnan and insist on Bean instead.

Well, she is a "hard-headed so and so", but that's not a bad thing. It takes balls of steel to go against prevailing wisdom and replace a popular actor right when his last Bond film has also been his biggest grosser in a string of big-grossing films, not to mention replacing said actor with a very risky choice that seemed to come out of nowhere.

I have never heard, that I recall, Barbara and Pierce not liking one another, but if it were true, it would help to explain Brosnan's extremely personal, childish reaction to being terminated. I used to be a big, big Brosnan supporter until he decided to burn all his bridges upon being let go; I've never viewed him the same way since.

Quite. I'm sure "balls of steel" ARE required in BB's position.

However, the point I was making was that the steel only became solid in 2005; in 1994 she was taking from, not giving to, Calley. She wanted to give him Bean, he said no and and gave her Brosnan. She backed off and made the film. Not so quite steel-balled then. Just the boss's daughter.

Those balls only got to be made steel as I poined out in my previous post, by the success of Pierce Brosnan's James Bond films... the man she fired/sought not to re-employ.

As I said, though, that's multi million dollar business for you.