22 replies to this topic

[AMC Hornet]

Over at "MR: I assure you your hate is misplaced", Die Another Day is taking a beating when compared to Moonraker, and I'm tired of it.

A little about me, first:

Diamonds Are Forever was the first Bond film I saw, at the tender age of 12. In the 18 months that followed I saw all the previous films, out of which I liked Thunderball and OHMSS the best. Then I was blown away again by Live and Let Die.

Having been introduced to Bond by the Maibaum/Mankewicz/Hamilton combine, theirs became the style of Bonds I prefer. To this day my top favorites are those I just mentioned plus TMWTGG, TSWLM, Octopussy, The Living Daylight...and Die Another Day.

Like everyone else, I regret that one bad moment of obvious CGI in the parasurfing scene, but consider how much CGI went unnoticed in the composition of Graves' ice palace/botanical garden complex and the disintegrating Antonov. Lee Tamahori's use of slow-mo and ram-zooms was a bit jarring, but he wasn't hired to crank out another John Glen film. Even as I watched those moments I accepted that they were his signature and they would not necessarily ever appear again.

As for the invisible car: well yes, the optics were a little too perfect. Looking at the car from an angle should have been like looking into the corner of a fishtank, but I can forgive that because the technology to disguise a vehicle that way is based on something that was already being developed by the military. Funny that everyone loves the submersible Lotus Esprit (myself included) and doesn't pick on how, after 30 years, it is still impossible to pack all that conversion machinery into a car that small.

But I digress. How can people dis on Halle Berry's acting, when they know bally well that she had to leave the filming in Spain to appear in Hollywood to accept her Academy Award for best actress in The Monster's Ball? I found her performance to be refreshingly natural. And as for lines like "your mama," actors seem to get too much credit for writing their own lines and directing their own scenes. Purvis & Wade co-wrote TWINE and Casino Royale too, y'know.

I also enjoyed the no-so-subtle references to the previous films, and did not find them too distracting or self-indulgent. The scenes in the ice palace (built inside the A.R.B. 007 stage) and the car chase were also highlights for me. I'd always wanted to see what would happen if Bond found himself being chased by a car as well-equipped as his own.

A space laser controlled by an ergonomic control suit? Why not? It fit Moon/Graves desire to be personally in control of everything. As for Moon's conversion into Graves (and Zao's freakish appearance), again, why not? At least Graves had a back-story and wasn't sending a fleet of space shuttles into orbit to command a gigantic invisible space station, before exterminating Earth's entire population....

And now the defenders of Moonraker will descend upon us to rain on our parade (as I did on theirs, shame on me). But I felt it was necessary to start this thread, not for the purpose of dissing Moonraker, but for the purpose of expressing our appreciation for DAD in its own forum, rather than trying to defend it in a forum set up to praise another movie.

So, tell us about your experience watching Die Another Day for the first time. Was it your first Bond film seen in a theatre? How do you feel it holds up as a bookend to the 'old' Bond series?

The floor is yours, fellow geeks...

Edited by AMC Hornet, 13 September 2010 - 05:49 PM.

[Aris007]

Well the first time I saw DAD I was stunned by the incinsible car, the car chase on the ice all these. And I liked all these cause I was 10. Now every time I see DAD I dislike it even more, cause it's not how a Bond movie should be. I don't hide that I forward the DVD when we reach the crazy-lazer scene with Mr. Kill, Bond and Jinx. It's just annoying. And the slow-motion second is like "Come on!".

Now the lines are terrible from every aspect. Brosnan is totally out of place(and I'm a supporter of his) and I don't blame him, cause he didn't even try on this one. He played as soon as the check was on his pocket. The selection of Berry as the Bond girl is totally wrong for me. No personallity, stupid come-backs (eg. "I think I got the thrust of it" and the epic "Oh, there's a mouthfull!"). It's like watching Linsday Lohan or Paris Hilton in a movie. She may deserved the Oscar, that's another story, but on the role in DAD she was pathetic.

Now, I also don't get up-to-date why on earth we had all these flashbacks on other previous films. They tried to squezze them all in a scene or two thing that resulted in out of place sequences. I know that it was a 40 year celebration, but they could have celebrated in a different way. In that way the film looks like a documentary on those particullar scenes.

What, I like about the film is the title song and the title sequence in general. The song is preety good and it matches the titles just perfectly. It's a mood-setter and in combination with the torture background it makes an exploding start-up on a film that lets down I'm afraid.

[onthetracksof007]

The first time I watched DAD, I thought 'Okay, I am so NOT gonna watch this one ever again'..

Sorry, hate it.

Big time!

[jaguar007]

I will say I like DAD better than TWINE

Toby Stephens and Rosamund Pike were entertaining in the film.

As far as your comment

How do you feel it holds up as a bookend to the 'old' Bond series?

I believe I gave you my thoughts on that in another thread but I will give them again on this thread. I don't consider DAD to be the last Bond film in the 'original' series, I consider LTK to take that honor. LTK was the last Bond film from the 'original' production team (Cubby as full time producer, Richard Maibaum as screenwriter, John Barry's last score was the previous Bond film with Dalton etc). GE marked the beginning of the 'modern' Bond series produced by Barbara Broccoli (and MGW who also produced some of the earlier film). To a certain extent it can be argued that everytime an actor changes, that is a reboot as well.

[zencat]

This thread is not going to go well.

(See my 2002 self.)

[DamnCoffee]

I love Die Another Day. It's really grown on me. It's a lot better than The World Is Not Enough. I've learned to see it for what it is. A fun Bond film. Nothing more, and nothing less. If you want to go and watch a dark and gritty Bond film, go watch Casino Royale. Just don't complain about the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously. It's not supposed to be ground breaking. It's entertainment.

[AMC Hornet]

Thank you, Zencat, for resurrecting your original thread. I too wouldn't go so far as to put DAD at the very top of my favorites list, but it is definitely up there, despite what the naysayers say. As far as Brosnan goes, I personally rate his films as follows:
1: DAD
2: TND
3: GE
4: TWINE
Please remember that this is just my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone else, nor am I seeking to be corrected by anyone more knowledgable than myself. Like I said earlier, I like DAF and Moore's first three films too, and am aware that my tastes fly in the faces of other serious fans, but I don't care. I like what I like. Even though AVTAK shares the bottom of my list with CR '67 (right below Moonraker), I won't endeavour to correct anyone who has their own reasons for liking it best.

I liked Moonraker when it was new, but I am still glad that the series did not continue in that direction. I thought Roger Moore should have settled for sailing off into the sunset with Octopussy and let someone new take on Zorin & co. but that didn't happen. I'm just glad that TLD and LTK did happen, and that Pierce got his chance to say "the name's Bond - James Bond." I just wish he'd got a chance to do it once more before the reboot.

As it was, Pierce's tenure ended with DAD and brother, what an exit!

Edited by AMC Hornet, 13 September 2010 - 09:56 PM.

[elizabeth]

How do you feel it holds up as a bookend to the 'old' Bond series?

Well, nothing's EVER gonna be the 'old' Bond series, but I enjoyed DAD.

[ChristopherZ22]

I appreciate your thread AMC Hornet. My first Bond film in theaters was For Your Eyes Only at age 6 (I'm 35). For Your Eyes Only is probably my favorite Bond film, but lets talk about Die Another Day.

I'm going to say that it is impossible for me to hate Die Another Day. It was an absolute life savor and helped me cope with difficult times. The week before Die Another Day was released in theaters, my parents separated because my mother was being unfaithful to my dad and having an affair with another man. She was always unfaithful to my dad. It did an enormous amount of damage to my family as it would to any family, and we were all torn up that week.

My dad and I decided to see Die Another Day the following week when it was released, and it helped us get our minds off of our family problems. For the first time in over a week, we were able to set our problem with my mother aside, and have a good time. The odd thing is that I always saw Bond films in theaters with my mother since my dad was never a Bond fan. However, my dad and I had a good time seeing Die Another Day which we both thought was a lot of fun and clever.

It is easier for me to become a fan of Die Another Day since I had a good experience seeing it in theaters and because it helped me cope with the separation of my parents. James Bond pretty much came to the rescue.

[Turn]

When I first saw DAD when it premiered I loved it. Of course, a lot of us have the tendancy to love a new film when it comes out because we're pumped up by the hype and excitement.

DAD was miles ahead of the turgid TWINE. It had a lot on its plate from trying to make it somewhat serious, to have fun, to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the series and to keep things modern by introducting techniques such as speed ramping and more CGI, which worked with mixed to horrid results, as well as featuring a big-name female star and a song and cameo by one of the most popular artists of the past 20 years.

I liked DAD less and less when I saw it a second time and from the many times I watched it on DVD. I caught part of it recently on network television and couldn't help but be underwhelmed.

That said, I still kind of like DAD for what it was and still find it more straightforwardly enjoyable than TWINE or GE. The invisible car thing doesn't bother me that much. I still think things were a bit over the top, but since I also enjoy MR, I enjoy it for what it set out to do, much as I also enjoy TND.

I have hammered away at TWINE in the past and will do so again, because what's glaring here is DAD is more successful in trying to be what it sets out to be - a fun celebration of Bond films - than TWINE, which overreaches to be something it's not and fails miserably, or GE, which also tries too hard to reestablish the series by playing things very safe. DAD lets it all hang out and works for the most part, at least in my view.

I will differ from AMC Hornet in that I hate Halle Berry's performance. There's just nothing there. Even Denise Richards supposedly portraying a nucelar physicist I can take because it just seems like somebody's playing a joke, doing it in the right spirit.

Halle is just the opposite because it feels like they were going for credibility with an actress on her way op and hitting the top and instead get just the opposite. I don't buy Halle for a minute as either a tough undercover agent or a sexy partner. She's like a character left over from one of the Matt Helm or Flint movies. Then come the stupid lines. What's left? For me, the worst part of DAD.

[AMC Hornet]

Thank you for your comments, ChristopherZ22. I had a similar, though less traumatic experience the first time I saw First Blood. I was roiling with resentment over how things were going with my job and new bride, and watching Stallone lay waste to his oppressors provided me with what I can only describe as a "vicarious catharsis" (in other words, it made me feel a lot better).

Die Another Day is also special to me, for it marks the point at which my life really started to improve after my divorce (somewhere in the forums menu is an old thread I'd started called "How DAD changed my life").

I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in my appreciation for this underrated blockbuster (however misguided some others may consider such appreciation to be). Bless ya (and you, Mharkin & Elizabeth) - I'm in your corner too.

[David_M]

How can people dis on Halle Berry's acting, when they know bally well that she had to leave the filming in Spain to appear in Hollywood to accept her Academy Award for best actress in The Monster's Ball?

Well, here's the thing: they're two different movies. Besides which, I wasn't impressed with her in "Monster's Ball," either, except that she took her clothes off. Which in my personal opinion had something to do with the Oscar; taking your clothes off for an exploitation film makes you a floozy airhead, but doing it for a "real" film makes you "courageous" and "committed." And doing it with Billy Bob Thornton ought to earn you the Congressional Medal of Honor, or at least a Purple Heart.

But this is a thread to celebrate what we do like about DAD, right? So here goes; I very much liked the idea of using the opening credits to move the story forward, as opposed to whiling away the five minutes with the umpteenth montage of naked girls on trampolines. I liked the idea of Bond being captured and (surprise!) the way Brosnan handled those scenes, especially the part where he looks thoroughly convinced he's going to be shot by a firing squad. I liked the scenes in Cuba, which I thought was the first attractive location in the entire Brosnan era (even though it wasn't really Cuba). I liked most of the sword fight, and can't believe it took them so many years to get one in a Bond film (I'm not counting Roger's brief sword vs stick encounter with Chang in MR).

Aaaand...that's pretty much it. I find DAD to be a film that wonderfully shows off the miracles of DVD technology, or to be more precise, the fast-forward button.

[Guy Haines]

I might be, if not unique among Cbn members, then certainly in a minority - much to my surprise, I found myself enjoying all four Pierce Brosnan flicks. Not in the same league as the 1960's classics I'll grant you, but enjoyable enough, with the screenwriters, directors and producers having the good sense to stop well short of teetering over the brink into complete parody, even when they seemed to be heading in that direction.

DAD is, to use that time honoured cliche beloved of football commentators "a game of two halves". Up to the trip to Iceland, it is quite gritty, and even its funny moments don't cause much of a cringe (such as 007's Robinson Crusoe look when he checks in to the Hong Kong hotel). After half time, it does seem more fantastic, but for some reason I found the invisible Aston Martin less of a problem than the gondola/hovercraft from MR. Probably because it is invisible - you can't have an animal doing a double take or a drunk looking amazed at something they can't see (statement of the blindingly obvious there!)

One aspect I liked was that, in the absence of Hugo Drax as Fleming envisaged him in the MR novel, we had an inkling of what he might have been on screen in the character of Gustav Graves. A clean cut well suited type to be sure, rather than the colourful ogreish Drax, but to me its obvious who Graves is, at least in part, based upon.

I admit I wasn't keen on the CGI work, but apart from that, I didn't mind DAD at all.

Edited by Guy Haines, 14 September 2010 - 06:48 PM.

[AMC Hornet]

taking your clothes off...with Billy Bob Thornton ought to earn you the Congressional Medal of Honor, or at least a Purple Heart.

Thanks, David_M, for my daily chuckle.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Thank you, Zencat, for resurrecting your original thread. I too wouldn't go so far as to put DAD at the very top of my favorites list, but it is definitely up there, despite what the naysayers say. As far as Brosnan goes, I personally rate his films as follows:
1: DAD
2: TND
3: GE
4: TWINE

That's how I would rank them also although more specifically it would go like this:

1)1st 2/3 of DAD
2)1st 1/2 of TND
3)1st 1/4 of GE
4)2nd 1/2 of TND
5)Final 3/4 of GE
6)Final 1/3 of DAD
7)TWINE

I think DAD contains Brosnan's finest Bond performance. In fact, the actors who stayed in the role the longest to actually have a 4th performance, the 4th one's been my favorite(TB for Connery, MR for Moore, DAD for Brosnan).

I liked Moonraker when it was new, but I am still glad that the series did not continue in that direction.

I wouldn't say it totally didn't. The series took a break from sci-fi until Brosnan's tenure began with GE but goofy comedy existed in all the remaining Moore films, even in the "serious" FYEO("Keep your hair on.", Bibi Dahl, 3rd appearance in a row of wine drinking tourist, Max the parrot, the finale with Dame Maggie and Dennis).

I thought Roger Moore should have settled for sailing off into the sunset with Octopussy and let someone new take on Zorin & co. but that didn't happen. I'm just glad that TLD and LTK did happen, and that Pierce got his chance to say "the name's Bond - James Bond."

Agree on all those points.

As it was, Pierce's tenure ended with DAD and brother, what an exit!

Indeed. Brosnan got his DAF and his MR combined with DAD. And I mean that in a good way. Sci-fi/fantasy and escapism that the series did so well are part of the joys of this series and DAD's a definite improvement over TWINE.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I like Die Another Day and rank it at number 13 in the series. Of the Brosnan entries, I rank them 1. GoldenEye, 2. Tomorrow Never Dies, 3. Die Another Day, 4. The World Is Not Enough.

While DAD is not a perfect film, I don't get all the hate directed toward it nor toward Pierce Brosnan which I find even more unfathomable.

Among the many highlights are the PTS which is great, the main titles are unique and entertaining, Brosnan gives arguably his best performance as James Bond (either this or TND), and the excellent sword fight with Gustav Graves. I also like the homages to celebrate past films (just this one time), Bond's Hong Kong hotel entrance, the Cuban clinic, Halle Berry's entrance, Toby Stephens' smarmy performance, and yes, the invisible car. I find the invisible car not to be a problem because technology is being worked on to do precisely what it does. Sure, it didn't exist at the time and still doesn't (at least to that extent), but neither does the rebreather from Thunderball to name one gadget. Bond films are supposed to exist a few minutes into the future and that is the case with the invisible car.

Surprisingly, I also like the fast ramping the two or three times it was used in the film particularly as Bond arrives in Iceland. However, the slow motion usage, I didn't like as well although I accept it. As to the use of CGI, I wish it could have been done better but I don't find it a fatal sin. As for the surfing scene, to do it real would have been better but admittedly next to impossible. As it is, I just roll with it. Personally, I have a harder time with the slow disintegration of the Antonov plane which I find harder to believe. Of course some of that may have to do with the climactic battle which I find a little underwhelming. And while some enjoy the film up until Iceland, I actually find the film working really well up until Bond's return to North Korea.

There's a lot of good things in DAD and a number of others that could have been done better. But DAD is still a fun movie and a financially successful one. One that I am glad we have. I just wish it would have led to a fifth and final Brosnan film. He certainly deserved it.

[captnash2]

though TSWLM did better job as anniversary flik and epic bond DAD not bad compared to some 60s/70s bonds.

best thing is that brosnan is still centre of the movie unlike epics like TB, YOLT and MR where 007 is swamped as a character by set pieces and effects.

i like that the way m treats him is quite harsh coming after TWINE but necessary to show she shows no favor to him.

the relationship between moon and son also intriguing and unique to bond films.

Edited by captnash2, 15 September 2010 - 09:12 AM.

[Goodnight]

While DAD is not a perfect film, I don't get all the hate directed toward it nor toward Pierce Brosnan which I find even more unfathomable.

I agree with this, and I also don't understand why everyone hates Pierce Brosnan soo much.

I admit I'm not keen on Halle Berry's acting in this film and I don't like the CGI.


However to focus on more positive things:

There was some decent casting/acting talent with Toby Stephens and Rosamund Pike.
The sword fight was really well put together.
I love the Aston vs Jaguar chase on ice.
Although it only lasted for a few seconds I love the bit where Bond swims in the icy water. I makes me hold my breath slightly every time I watch it.



It is a shame the film is littered with silly mistakes, like when Graves is talking about Icarus in Iceland how come everyone puts sunglasses on except Bond and Jinx?

Also when those sports cars fell out of that plane, they both land (and stay up) on the front bumpers and yet they are perfectly intact.


I think DAD should not be slated for not being dark and gritty, but celebrated for being an all out bonkers Bond film.

[David_M]

I agree with this, and I also don't understand why everyone hates Pierce Brosnan soo much.

I don't think "everyone" does. Not here anyway, and this forum doesn't reflect the world at large, which boasts many Brosnan fans.

Which is not to say that I'm one of them...:-)

My personal opinion is that Brosnan will be fondly remembered as Bond in the long run even if none of his individual films stands the test of time as a "classic," or even particularly memorable. He neatly fit the popular perception of the character and he does have his charm. Already I know people who think he was a "great" Bond but when pressed can't name a single one of his films or tell you one thing that happened in any of them. I think this will hold over time: Brosnan = Good Bond, Brosnan Films = Meh.

[Turn]

I agree with David M regarding Brosnan. From my personal point of view, he was presented as this savior of the series, played to expectations and fulfilled what he set out to do. He didn't exceed or underwhelm. That's what was called for at the time.

Personally, I think he could have done more with the lightheartedness of the character, which was a strength on Remington Steele, rather than trying to imitate Connery, who he admitted to trying to base his performance on.

Admittedly, I was surprised at times being convinced by his toughness. But whereas Roger Moore's occasional serious side coming out in his films felt more convincing to me, Brosnan's attempts at heavy drama left me cold; I just never bought it. I don't have a problem with developing the character or an actor stretching, but some are better than others.

Finally, when you compare what Brosnan did with the role and what Daniel Craig did, it is not surprising to see many people finding his portrayal less satisfying. Craig had things stacked against him from the day he was announced, had to to deal with criticism and juvinile web sites before anyone saw a frame of his work. Then when he blows people away with his performance it makes it that much more convincing.

Brosnan earned his place in the series and will be the definitive Bond for a whole generation. But those of us who don't agree with that shouldn't be slighted for having a differing view. Particularly now that there is some distance from his era.

[007luvchild2]

My two cents;

I can watch Die Another Day, I've grown to accept what it is, entertaining Brain Candy. The only thing that I still hate about the film is Madonna's cameo, because I felt it was forced. That may not be the case, but I still cringe when I see it. I personally didn't have a problem with Berry's performance. I just think it wasn't a challenge for her. The writers could have come up with something better than the "Yo momma, line." And then there was Miranda Frost, the one character who I wanted to see even more. Initially I hated the Title Song, and it's shame tha remixes were better. HOwever, I love the scoring of the ICE CHASE, Fencing fight between Bond and Graves, and Cuba. It has its good points.

[WhatMeWorry?]

I've learned to see it for what it is. A fun Bond film. Nothing more, and nothing less. If you want to go and watch a dark and gritty Bond film, go watch Casino Royale. Just don't complain about the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously. It's not supposed to be ground breaking. It's entertainment.

Exactly. It could not have been said better. Personally I prefer the more "fun" Bond outings. DAD, and James Bond as a whole is just entertainment (at it's very best).

[Gothamite]

When I first saw DAD I was only 12 and it was a few short years after my initial Bond obsession had subsided. I maintain that if I was just a year or two younger, I probably would have been jumping up and down in my seat with excitement at the more outlandish elements of the film but given that I had reached a certain pre-teen maturity by that point, I merely found it to be a satisfying, enjoyable inclusion in the series.

When the hype for CR really started kicking off, it became trendy to hate DAD and naturally I did. However, after (finally) buying all of the SE DVDs I discovered much to my horror that DAD remained an enjoyable film that utilised Brosnan's Bond very well. And say what you like about the invisible car, but the actual "car battle" between Bond and Zao is one of the most outrageously cool (if ridiculous) moments in the whole series, right up there with the sky-battle in the PTS of Moonraker. In fact, I would probably still rank it above the far duller GE in terms of enjoyment and succeeding in what it set out to do.

As many have said before, it was an effective "last hurrah" for the "Bond-and-Beyond" type spectacle-fests and it was a suitable end for Brosnan (although it certainly could have been far better in that regard). I'll certainly rewatch it a lot more than other entries in the series (including GoldenEye which is confusingly beloved by so many people).

I rank Brosnan's like this:

TND
DAD
TWINE
GE

Edited by Gothamite, 09 October 2010 - 10:31 AM.