45 replies to this topic

[Guy Haines]

Agreed on TSWLM - Yeah, a MI6 and Russian agent killed on his turf (although operating covertly) yet by his invite would have brought Hell down on Atlantis and his operation.

As to MR, the centerfuge bit could have been claimed as a terrible accident and Bond did, largely beacause of Holly's disdain for him, willingly agree to climb in. It still would have brought undue attention to Drax, but he wouldn't have cared as his plan was less than a week from execution and he already had a hidden space station in orbit.

"Bond Logic" - or lack there of, should become a new thread of it's own.

On reflection, it would draw attention to an otherwise secretive billionaire ("I'm somewhat of a recluse") if he had used Bond and Anya as shark food on his own turf. On the other hand, once back in Sardinia, the methods of attempting to dispose of Bond and Anya were not exactly subtle, were they? One can only imagine Bond's report back to HQ - "Major Amasova and I survived a motorcycle missile attack, car chase, machine gun assault from an armed helicopter - pity about the way the machine guns were fixed under the fusalage, the bullets just whistled past either side of the Lotus! - then I activiated the car's submarine function, only to be attacked by a number of mini submarines and armed frogmen. By the way, that Stromberg tanker looks a bit dodgy. Otherwise, nothing much to report!"

I'm amused that we've started something called "Bond logic". In fairness, when you think of the whopping plot holes in some films just for the sake of an action scene, the Bonds don't do that badly. But you can sometimes leave the cinema thinking "hold on a moment?" As Professor Higgins sang, or rather shouted in "My Fair Lady" - "Why is logic hardly ever tried?"

[sharpshooter]

So why the hell did Bond go after Mitchell? He and M had White. Mitchell was blown. So he gets away. The only reason to chase him was so that Bond could show off what he'd learned from Molloka a few months earlier. Sweating White was more important - to find out what his 'position' was with his organization - missionary or reverse cowgirl?

I think this is a fine example of Craig’s hasty Bond still developing into the fully formed agent we all know. Sure, the mandatory action scene was slipped in, but I think chasing after Mitchell was the adrenaline of the moment. Shots were fired, M was put at risk and the need for retribution was there. Make no mistake, it was personal. Especially early on, with Bond in that frame of mind, wanting to let out his emotions physically and hunt down those responsible. As the film went on, he let his baggage go, learnt from it and moved on.

In this particular scene, not only logic. How does a man who has been shot in the leg with a high powered gun suddenly get up and walk away, because that, presumably, is what Mr White did whilst Bond was busy tracking down Mitchell across the sewers and rooftops of Sienna.

Who is to say he wasn’t rescued by Quantum operatives? Mitchell is told in advance by M, or some other high ranking MI6 official, that Bond has acquired White and he’s on his way. The information is relayed. Mitchell stands by waiting, and hoping White remains silent in the meantime, but as he begins to talk, he makes an executive decision to silence him. Mitchell sprints off, and with the room vacant, White is later carried to safety. You could spin it any way you wanted.

[Captain Tightpants]

I think Mr. White is some kind of right-hand man. He knows the identity of Quantum's Senior Management, and owes his alleigances to them and them alone. In the event that Quantum is compromised, it is White's job to clear house. He knows everything about everyone and has a single task: to protect the Powers That Be. He speaks for them, acts for them and answers only to them.

[Aris007]

I think Mr. White is some kind of right-hand man. He knows the identity of Quantum's Senior Management, and owes his alleigances to them and them alone. In the event that Quantum is compromised, it is White's job to clear house. He knows everything about everyone and has a single task: to protect the Powers That Be. He speaks for them, acts for them and answers only to them.

Sounds reasonable to me. It's the man with the connections here and there. I'd say that he's paid by similar organizations just to get the job done for them.

[Bryce (003)]

On reflection, it would draw attention to an otherwise secretive billionaire ("I'm somewhat of a recluse") if he had used Bond and Anya as shark food on his own turf. On the other hand, once back in Sardinia, the methods of attempting to dispose of Bond and Anya were not exactly subtle, were they? One can only imagine Bond's report back to HQ - "Major Amasova and I survived a motorcycle missile attack, car chase, machine gun assault from an armed helicopter - pity about the way the machine guns were fixed under the fusalage, the bullets just whistled past either side of the Lotus! - then I activiated the car's submarine function, only to be attacked by a number of mini submarines and armed frogmen. By the way, that Stromberg tanker looks a bit dodgy. Otherwise, nothing much to report!"

LOL! Yeah, some of Bond's field reports had to have M and Tanner and Moneypenny rolling their eyes or hitting the scotch.

I'm amused that we've started something called "Bond logic". In fairness, when you think of the whopping plot holes in some films just for the sake of an action scene, the Bonds don't do that badly. But you can sometimes leave the cinema thinking "hold on a moment?" As Professor Higgins sang, or rather shouted in "My Fair Lady" - "Why is logic hardly ever tried?"

Excellent quote. Actually though in both films and literature, the phrase/description of such things is called "suspension of disbelief". If you can present something and, to a degree, via either action or description, cite reasons or give explanations to them, it becomes believable.

Stromberg was a perfectionist or really anal. Imagine his briefing.

"Okay, once they get back, have the motorcycle with the explosive rocket sidecar blow them up if they should take a drive. Then, if that doesn't work, have Jaws and a few of his boys give chase and shoot them off the road, then, if that doesn't work, have Naomi take one the helicopters and shoot them off the road, then, if that doesn't work, have some submersibles and frogmen standing by....Failing all of that this Bond guy will have majorly pissed me off....Screw it! Should have just had Naomi shoot them on the boat....That's all. Dismissed...and I'm still waiting for my lobster dammit!...and don't forget the tabasco!"

[Guy Haines]

On reflection, it would draw attention to an otherwise secretive billionaire ("I'm somewhat of a recluse") if he had used Bond and Anya as shark food on his own turf. On the other hand, once back in Sardinia, the methods of attempting to dispose of Bond and Anya were not exactly subtle, were they? One can only imagine Bond's report back to HQ - "Major Amasova and I survived a motorcycle missile attack, car chase, machine gun assault from an armed helicopter - pity about the way the machine guns were fixed under the fusalage, the bullets just whistled past either side of the Lotus! - then I activiated the car's submarine function, only to be attacked by a number of mini submarines and armed frogmen. By the way, that Stromberg tanker looks a bit dodgy. Otherwise, nothing much to report!"

LOL! Yeah, some of Bond's field reports had to have M and Tanner and Moneypenny rolling their eyes or hitting the scotch.

I'm amused that we've started something called "Bond logic". In fairness, when you think of the whopping plot holes in some films just for the sake of an action scene, the Bonds don't do that badly. But you can sometimes leave the cinema thinking "hold on a moment?" As Professor Higgins sang, or rather shouted in "My Fair Lady" - "Why is logic hardly ever tried?"

Excellent quote. Actually though in both films and literature, the phrase/description of such things is called "suspension of disbelief". If you can present something and, to a degree, via either action or description, cite reasons or give explanations to them, it becomes believable.

Stromberg was a perfectionist or really anal. Imagine his briefing.

"Okay, once they get back, have the motorcycle with the explosive rocket sidecar blow them up if they should take a drive. Then, if that doesn't work, have Jaws and a few of his boys give chase and shoot them off the road, then, if that doesn't work, have Naomi take one the helicopters and shoot them off the road, then, if that doesn't work, have some submersibles and frogmen standing by....Failing all of that this Bond guy will have majorly pissed me off....Screw it! Should have just had Naomi shoot them on the boat....That's all. Dismissed...and I'm still waiting for my lobster dammit!...and don't forget the tabasco!"

Glad you appreciated my comments.

Roman emperors often had a slave standing by who, in their hubristic moments, would say to them, "Remember thou art mortal". Not one of these movie super-villains has a minion to hand offering the sage advice of Dr. Evil's very sensible son, Scotty - "Why don't you just shoot him???"

[byline]

I do love the last scene in QoS and Bond's confrontation. Say what you will of the film, but that end bit cemented Craig as Fleming's Bond. I was sold after CR on him, but that drove the final nail in for me and made me anxious to see his next outing.

Same here!

Who is to say he wasn’t rescued by Quantum operatives? Mitchell is told in advance by M, or some other high ranking MI6 official, that Bond has acquired White and he’s on his way. The information is relayed. Mitchell stands by waiting, and hoping White remains silent in the meantime, but as he begins to talk, he makes an executive decision to silence him. Mitchell sprints off, and with the room vacant, White is later carried to safety. You could spin it any way you wanted.

This is what I assumed had happened. I didn't think that White, with his injuries, got away under his own steam.

I think Mr. White is some kind of right-hand man. He knows the identity of Quantum's Senior Management, and owes his alleigances to them and them alone. In the event that Quantum is compromised, it is White's job to clear house. He knows everything about everyone and has a single task: to protect the Powers That Be. He speaks for them, acts for them and answers only to them.

My thoughts, exactly. Others have noted that Mr. White led the opera discussion, and it's true that if you watch the captions, that's how it appears. However, I think that Quantum's leader would not have risked exposure by showing up in public like that with the rest of the members, so Mr. White is his representative in these matters. I also think back to Mr. White's words to Obanno at the beginning of "Casino Royale" about his organization just guaranteeing the meeting with Le Chiffre, nothing more. I don't think Quantum's leader would have been the one to do that, nor be the one to kill Le Chiffre.

Edited by byline, 25 August 2010 - 12:00 AM.

[Guy Haines]

So why the hell did Bond go after Mitchell? He and M had White. Mitchell was blown. So he gets away. The only reason to chase him was so that Bond could show off what he'd learned from Molloka a few months earlier. Sweating White was more important - to find out what his 'position' was with his organization - missionary or reverse cowgirl?

I think this is a fine example of Craig’s hasty Bond still developing into the fully formed agent we all know. Sure, the mandatory action scene was slipped in, but I think chasing after Mitchell was the adrenaline of the moment. Shots were fired, M was put at risk and the need for retribution was there. Make no mistake, it was personal. Especially early on, with Bond in that frame of mind, wanting to let out his emotions physically and hunt down those responsible. As the film went on, he let his baggage go, learnt from it and moved on.

In this particular scene, not only logic. How does a man who has been shot in the leg with a high powered gun suddenly get up and walk away, because that, presumably, is what Mr White did whilst Bond was busy tracking down Mitchell across the sewers and rooftops of Sienna.

Who is to say he wasn’t rescued by Quantum operatives? Mitchell is told in advance by M, or some other high ranking MI6 official, that Bond has acquired White and he’s on his way. The information is relayed. Mitchell stands by waiting, and hoping White remains silent in the meantime, but as he begins to talk, he makes an executive decision to silence him. Mitchell sprints off, and with the room vacant, White is later carried to safety. You could spin it any way you wanted.

Indeed, and you may be right. What I was having a dig at was what I thought was a bit of lazy plotting. No real explanation as to how White could have got away when he was seriously injured, and shaken up after that car chase. Also, didn't he catch a bullet himself when Mitchell was exposed by him and started firing at all and sundry? Yet he disappears, and then re-appears days later in Bregenz looking little the worse for wear. You are correct, you could spin it the way you describe. I just thought we deserved better than a case of "now you see him, now you don't". Hence my comment about White's "miraculous" powers of recovery.

[Captain Tightpants]

I think Mr. White is some kind of right-hand man. He knows the identity of Quantum's Senior Management, and owes his alleigances to them and them alone. In the event that Quantum is compromised, it is White's job to clear house. He knows everything about everyone and has a single task: to protect the Powers That Be. He speaks for them, acts for them and answers only to them.

Sounds reasonable to me. It's the man with the connections here and there. I'd say that he's paid by similar organizations just to get the job done for them.

Actually, if I were the one running Quantum, then I'd want Mr. White to work for me, and for me alone.

[Publius]

Good point. Let him go and grill White after securing M. Mitchell was just a point man for White. Track his butt down later. Alas no, that wasn't the option.

Clearly there are many issues of logic (or lack there of) in QoS.

Bond probably assumed a man with a blown-out knee wasn't going anywhere. Maybe White got away because M is actually the head of Quantum...

Hopefully White wasn't intended to be too important, though. Doesn't Jesper Christensen want nothing to do with Bond movies anymore?

[Single-O-Seven]

Good point. Let him go and grill White after securing M. Mitchell was just a point man for White. Track his butt down later. Alas no, that wasn't the option.

Clearly there are many issues of logic (or lack there of) in QoS.

Bond probably assumed a man with a blown-out knee wasn't going anywhere. Maybe White got away because M is actually the head of Quantum...

Hopefully White wasn't intended to be too important, though. Doesn't Jesper Christensen want nothing to do with Bond movies anymore?

I believe he called the films "shyte" but later either took it back, apologised, or indicated he didn't quite mean it that way. I can't remember what his excuse was, but when he realises they are the only movies that put his face out to the world while paying him a decent wage, I'm sure he may reconsider and return to the series.

[Messervy]

And what if we thought horizontally instead of vertically?
Instead of trying to find out if White is #1, 2 or whatever, I would argue that he's the adviser/aide-de-camp/representative of Quantum's Head(s). Any good organization isn't just about 1>2>3 etc, but also (if not above all) about effective articulation.
Besides, who's to say Quantum only has one head? Wouldn't you think that a loose multi-faceted entity would be harder to identify and dismantle (and also harder for its own members to get of comprehensive knowledge thereof)?

[Aris007]

And what if we thought horizontally instead of vertically?
Instead of trying to find out if White is #1, 2 or whatever, I would argue that he's the adviser/aide-de-camp/representative of Quantum's Head(s). Any good organization isn't just about 1>2>3 etc, but also (if not above all) about effective articulation.
Besides, who's to say Quantum only has one head? Wouldn't you think that a loose multi-faceted entity would be harder to identify and dismantle (and also harder for its own members to get of comprehensive knowledge thereof)?

Totally agree! For me his work is to take jobs to find possible victims, get the job done and then go down the road and take a similar task in another "organisation". Something like an advisor, but with a more active role.

[Double-Oh Agent]

And what if we thought horizontally instead of vertically?
Instead of trying to find out if White is #1, 2 or whatever, I would argue that he's the adviser/aide-de-camp/representative of Quantum's Head(s). Any good organization isn't just about 1>2>3 etc, but also (if not above all) about effective articulation.
Besides, who's to say Quantum only has one head? Wouldn't you think that a loose multi-faceted entity would be harder to identify and dismantle (and also harder for its own members to get of comprehensive knowledge thereof)?

I think you're right about that. He's the front man for Quantum as well as being their go-to troubleshooter/problem eliminator if need be.

[Guy Haines]

I've commented about Mr. White's bullet wound, and the tendency of Bond villains to use anything but a direct method of bumping Bond off. But not, so far, about White and his role in Quantum, so here goes.

I think he's more than a mere henchman. If he is, then he must be the most well remunerated heavy in the Bond series, if he owns that villa by Lake Como we glimpsed at the end of CR.

But I agree with others on this thread that White is probably not the head of the organisation, rather an "eminence grise", who operates on behalf of the top level of Quantum. The shadowy middle man who the ones underneath fear, in spite of his unassuming appearance - consider the desperate expression on Le Chiffre's face when White interrupts the torture session, although as White was pointing a gun straight at him such an expression would be understandable! But I get the impression that when Mr. White turns up, the underlings of Quantum know that the game, for them, is up.

As for who runs Quantum, is there a single leader, or a loose collective? The opera scene in QoS suggests the latter to me. Loose to the point of each board member having a respectable background and job, and probably denying all knowledge of other members of the group if forced. Which seems vaguely similar to the SPECTRE of the Fleming book Thunderball, but without the all-powerful Number 2 figure. Another similarity to the Thunderball novel, which I've only seen noted in one QoS review, is that the US and UK end up doing a deal with Quantum through Dominic Greene. Isn't there some mention by M in Thunderball that MI6 had had dealings with an "independent outfit" in Europe over stolen nerve gas, and that the French had paid this outfit to assassinate a scientist who had defected to Russia? The inference was that even the allied intelligence services were not averse to doing deals with SPECTRE - which was subsequently picked up and used as part of the QoS plot.

[DuJour]

The conversation did seem a bit odd but I don't think Bond was oblivious to anyone involved in that meeting. Spies are trained to take in everything sround them, no matter how muffled someone's voice is. Bond is always on alert and knows who's where, what's in a room as he enters, probably has been trained to count heads at a glance and to make note of where everyone is located. So a conversation and who's in that conversation is going to be duly noted by Bond. An interesting topic, thanks OP!

Edited by DuJour, 01 October 2010 - 01:38 AM.