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James Bond was a neo-fascist gangster, says John Le Carré


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#1 Ambler

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:00 PM

John Le Carre's early animosity to the literary James Bond is reconfirmed in an 1966 interview that is to be rebroadcast by BBC4 later this month:

"I dislike Bond. I'm not sure that Bond is a spy. I think that it's a great mistake if one's talking about espionage literature to include Bond in this category at all. It seems to me he's more some kind of international gangster with, as it is said, a licence to kill... he's a man entirely out of the political context. It's of no interest to Bond who, for instance, is president of the United States or of the Union of Soviet Republics."

"...At the root of Bond there was something neo-fascistic and totally materialist. You felt he would have gone through the same antics for any country really, if the girls had been so pretty and the Martinis so dry."


Full story in today's Daily Telegraph.

#2 Aris007

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:25 PM

"I dislike Bond.


Thanks for letting us know! :rolleyes:

#3 The Shark

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:32 PM

He's certainly no spy, that I agree with. More of a counter-intelligence operative and commando. Everything beneath that for Bond just includes mundane tasks. That's what the double-o section is, the strong heavily concealed arm of MI6.

However, he's only fascist or neo-fascist if the state that he serve is so, in my book. He may have his own personal prejudices, chauvinist ideas, neo-imperialist hangups and quirks - but he's a long way from being fascist in any sense of the term. No more so than any other heavy-duty civil servant is and was.

Seems to me to be pithy invective and hyperbole from Mr. Le Carre, whose just doing his best to stick his middle finger at anther more popular, imaginative, engaging, colourful and witty than his own drab, authentic, dirges of post-war spy fiction.

The lady doth protest too much, and these are the words of a man who probably secretly enjoyed Fleming's pulp fiction, when no one was around.

#4 Harmsway

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:37 PM

He's certainly no spy, that I agree with. More of a counter-intelligence operative and commando. Everything beneath that for Bond just includes mundane tasks. That's what the double-o section is, the strong heavily concealed arm of MI6.

Sure. As for the rest of Le Carré's accusations, I'm not sure the "neo-fascistic" label fits Bond.

Seems to me to be pithy invective and hyperbole from Mr. Le Carre, whose just doing his best to stick his middle finger at anther more popular, imaginative, engaging, colourful and witty than his own drab, authentic, dirges of post-war spy fiction.

Eh, Le Carré > Fleming, as far as I'm concerned.

#5 The Shark

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:46 PM

Seems to me to be pithy invective and hyperbole from Mr. Le Carre, whose just doing his best to stick his middle finger at anther more popular, imaginative, engaging, colourful and witty than his own drab, authentic, dirges of post-war spy fiction.

Eh, Le Carré > Fleming, as far as I'm concerned.


Oh I agree. I simply find Fleming's writing more colourful, engaging and imaginative than Le Carré's. Not that his entire collective works are stronger.

If I want quick, breezy entertainment I read Fleming. If I want substance I read Le Carré.

#6 plankattack

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:47 PM

He's certainly no spy, that I agree with. More of a counter-intelligence operative and commando. Everything beneath that for Bond just includes mundane tasks. That's what the double-o section is, the strong heavily concealed arm of MI6.

However, he's only fascist or neo-fascist if the state that he serve is so, in my book. He may have his own personal prejudices, chauvinist ideas, neo-imperialist hangups and quirks - but he's a long way from being fascist in any sense of the term. No more so than any other heavy-duty civil servant is and was.

Seems to me to be pithy invective and hyperbole from Mr. Le Carre, whose just doing his best to stick his middle finger at anther more popular, imaginative, engaging, colourful and witty than his own drab, authentic, dirges of post-war spy fiction.

The lady doth protest too much, and these are the words of a man who probably secretly enjoyed Fleming's pulp fiction, when no one was around.


Exactly!

The continual sniping that's been thrown the character's way - from Le Carre, through to Paul Greengrass - only underlines the unbelievable success of Fleming's creation. There are only a handful of characters with the longevity and resonance of Bond. It's a sign of being on top when others look to make hay through taking shots. The criticism is, in an oblique way, a compliment. No-one has a go at George Smiley for example, because popularity-wise, what would be the point? There's no better way to bring attention to oneself than taking on the person who has all the attention........

#7 Garth007

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:55 PM

http://movies.yahoo....angster-reuters

personally this article is a crime against humanity to me and should pay!!

#8 Safari Suit

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:44 PM

You want to hurt John le Carré? He's pushing 80!

To me his comments, especially now, seem fair enough, even appealing at times

You felt he would have gone through the same antics for any country really, if the girls had been so pretty and the Martinis so dry


[censored]in-eh!

I know some people really like the "for queen and country" aspect of Bond, but it's never been a big factor for me.

#9 Matt_13

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:48 PM

My intellectual response: James Bond is cool. End of story.

#10 Aris007

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 03:56 PM

Why make two threads out of the same story? :confused: Merge please!

#11 Johnboy007

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 05:03 PM

Sometimes I wish le Carre would ease up on the indignation. He worked it will early in his career to spice things up and give his stories some grittiness/interesting twists.

After the Tinker Tailor trilogy, it seemed like it all fell apart for him. Characters and plots took a backseat entirely to long diatribes about how terrible people are, or how corrupt everything is in the world at all points in time until forever. Little Drummer Girl and A Perfect Spy come to mind as books where there wasn't enough story to justify sitting through another 400 pages of some current political, social, or personal issue feeding an outraged le Carre morality tale. In a way he is like John Gardner. The early books are good but eventually it turns into "Win, Lose, or Die: John Gardner saw Top Gun", "Little Drummer Girl: Israelis and Palestinians are bad", "A Perfect Spy: John le Carre hated his daddy", and "Absolute Friends/A Most Wanted Man: John is really pissed about the War on Terror"

A Small Town in Germany and The Looking Glass War are two others where nothing much seemed to happen and none of the characters were worth caring about.

The Tailor of Panama is the only "recent" book of his I managed to finish, but only because of Graham Greene's plot. Anything since then I feel better off reading a comparable Frederick Forsyth story and the relevant moral outrage op/eds on the internet.

#12 MkB

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 05:46 PM

If I understand well, this interview was given in 1966 and this is just a repeat, so it's not John LeCarré's fault if he seems to be rambling again and again about James Bond.

About Bond being the lousiest spy an intelligence agency could dream of, I see his point. Although I just don't care: Smiley and Bond just don't belong in the same universe. Bond is plain pulp fantasy, that's all, and when I want fantasy, I go for Bond. When I want my fix of gloom and a reminder of the base nature of human beings, I go for Smiley.
I'm fine with other writers hating Bond. LeCarré's entitled to his opinion, after all :)

@Johnboy007: I happened to read The Looking-Glass War quite recently, and found it interesting, although a very, very, VERY gloomy, disillusioned, borderline misanthropic take on the intelligence world - even by LeCarré's standards.

#13 Napoleon Solo

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 07:24 PM

In 1980, when Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy aired on PBS in the U.S., the episodes were introduced by PBS newsman Robert MacNeil. MacNeil, also, had to get his digs in at Bond in those intros.

Also, in the '70s, LeCarre was profiled on 60 Minutes and said pretty much what he said in the 1966 interview.

#14 Revelator

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:13 PM

The article makes clear that LeCarre's attitude has remained consistently dim throughout the years. His most recent comments on the subject:

"These days I would be much kinder. I suppose we've lost sight of the books in favour of the film versions, haven't we? I was a young man and I knew that I had written about the reality in The Spy Who Came In From The Cold and that the Fleming stuff was a deliberate fantasisation of Fleming's own experiences when he was safely in New York. But at the root of Bond there was something neo-fascistic and totally materialist. You felt he would have gone through the same antics for any country really, if the girls had been so pretty and the Martinis so dry."


Note the underhanded slam against the real-life espionage experience of Fleming, who apparently spent World War II hiding in New York! No mention of the fact that as Assistant to the Head of Naval Intelligence, Fleming probably helped save more lives and helped his country more than LeCarre ever did. That reality would be harder to acknowledge.

Note the tone-deaf ignorance of the hardly subtle or easy-to-miss patriotism in Fleming's work--I highly doubt that LeCarre has ever read Fleming, at least in anything resembling depth. Bond's girls (most of whom aren't British) and martinis are the rewards he gives himself after having gone through extreme pain and tension for a country he's quote obviously fond of, even at its weakest (note the angry speech in Britain's defense in YOLT). But they're not the reason he does what he does. Shallow readers can easily read Bond as being a hedonist who spends all his time in casinos eating caviar--a reading that ignores all the moments of drabness and physical discomfort that pervade the novels.

The idea that Bond would go wherever material benefits took him is belied by his repeated moments of national pride, as exhibited in Bond's flash of homesickness in Dr. No, or the loving, secretly complimentary portrayal of the Secret Service given by the Russian spy-chiefs in FRWL, where the Russians wonder why English spies are so dedicated despite their low pay and anonymity (unlike the USSR, where killers like Grant get private vacation villas and anything else they could ask for). And Bond's notorious attitudes toward foreigners and other races are reflections of someone who thinks God is an Englishman. LeCarre doesn't seem to have picked up on what is bloody obvious for everyone else.

Why then does LeCarre think this way? Aside from the obvious answer--that he looks down on the Bond books too much to actually read them--it may have something to do with his mentality. The idea that Bond might do what he does out of love for his country might seem incomprehensible and unbelievable to LeCarre, to whom patriotism is nothing more than a fig leaf for villainy. If Fleming had originally appealed to reader's fantasies, LeCarre made his fortune by appealing to their guilty conscience. His picture of the world ultimately became as cartoonish as Fleming's, but it's the sort of cartoon designed to flatter the sensibilities of intelligent, educated, upper-middle class Westerners trying to deal with cold war misgivings, colonial guilt, anti-corporate outrage, and so on. Because LeCarre was on the right side, he was "realistic," even at his most contrived (and even though Fleming used just as much, if not more detail in describing espionage). The Bond films made people think the books were just as escapist, and so middle-brows decided that LeCarre's glumness and drabness, no matter how stylized and occasionally overdone, were reality and thus greater art. This is not to deny The Spy Who Came In From The Cold's genuine status as a masterpiece, or that my own politics are closer to LeCarre's than Fleming's. But it is meant to emphasize that LeCarre can be a lousy reader, and a singularly petty one too. Shame.

Edited by Revelator, 19 August 2010 - 04:54 PM.


#15 elizabeth

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 11:28 PM

My intellectual response: James Bond is cool. End of story.

:tup:

But seriously though, Sean Connery looked gangster-esque in his younger Bond days, sporting the hat and suit.

#16 Major Tallon

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 12:18 AM

Beautifully said, Revelator. Whatever one makes of Bond's musings in Casino Royale on the nature of evil and his stated purpose in pursuing his career as a secret agent, they give the lie to Le Carre's assertion that Bond is motivated by a hedonistic enjoyment of the good life, and that, if only the Russians outdid the British in making wine and beautiful women available, Bond would change sides. There is, in fact, not a single sentence in the Fleming novels that supports such a claim. That's doubtless why Le Carre doesn't point to any.

#17 stromberg

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 10:20 AM

Why make two threads out of the same story? :confused: Merge please!

Done.

And, well said, Revelator :tup:

#18 Ambler

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 01:01 PM

LeCarre can be a lousy reader, and a singularly petty one too. Shame.

I think Le Carre's objection to Fleming is ideological, nothing more, nothing less.

#19 Guy Haines

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:13 PM

Bond has always struck me as an old fashioned, understated British patriot. No flag waving or chest beating involved, but a patriot nevertheless. Consider the scorn he turns on Sir Hugo Drax in the novel Moonraker when this super patriotic benevolent multi millionaire is revealed in his true colours. Bond comes from a long tradition of British fictional action adventurers, from Richard Hannay to Bulldog Drummond and beyond. But he was always his creator's reflection, hence the side interest in "wine, women and song". Not a spy in the truest sense though, prepared to spy on another country or even betray his own.

As for David Cornwell's apparent antipathy towards Bond, who knows? Ideological? A rival author competing for readership - bear in mind that "John Le Carre" came to prominence as the last few Bond books were being published (as did the works of Len Deighton), and when that BBC interview took place Ian Fleming was no more, though the film version of Bond influenced millions about the world of espionage for decades to come.

Might even be something simpler than the above. Inter college rivalry. "Le Carre" was Oxon. Bond, according to the films at least, was Cantab. :)

#20 jaguar007

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:17 PM

I just skimmed over the article rather than read it in depth, but it sounds like LeCarre is more familiar with the screen version of Bond rather than the literary version.

#21 Revelator

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:28 AM

I think Le Carre's objection to Fleming is ideological, nothing more, nothing less.


Most of the truly virulent attacks on Fleming have been lousy readings that were ideologically motivated--when a work is viewed as nothing more than gift-wrapping around a central ideology, one always gets a deeply reductive, and often distorted or even flat-out wrong reading as a result. The work becomes little more than a sociological symptom, whose detection flatters the amour-propre of the self-righteous critic, who has found what he was determined to find (or create if it wasn't there--hence LeCarre's bizarre ideas about Bond's patriotism).

One of the benefits of passing of time is that later critics approach the material from a distanced perspective, without old axes to grind. Much of the recent, post-1990s academic work on Fleming has been surprisingly non-condemnatory, perhaps because the cold war and ideological contests of the period are of fainter concern to younger critics and academics. I doubt Fleming will ever again be bashed with the enraged hysteria of gremlins like Paul Johnson and LeCarre.

Edited by Revelator, 19 August 2010 - 01:32 AM.


#22 Lachesis

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 12:08 PM

Fleming wrote adventures, boys own stuff for grown ups this criticism is indicative of trying to shoehorn or envisage the character in the cold light of the real world and tossing up the layers of pretention and contempt along the way....there are more than a few parallels with the current screen incarnation whereby some fans want to distance themselves from a long and very successful heritage to suddenly rub shoulders with the Le Carre's of this world...apples and oranges they dont conform to the same rules, you don't view or read them in the same mood or tone and imo should never do so.

#23 marktmurphy

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 12:34 PM

Note the tone-deaf ignorance of the hardly-subtle or easy-to-miss patriotism in Fleming's work


Well which is it? Hardly-subtle or easy-to-miss?

Personally I've never felt that Bond was ideologically driven particularly- it's hard to know what drives him, but generally it seems to be more the thrill of the action (hence all that accidie stuff) than any particular patriotism.
There's a bit in the Spy Who Loved Me novelisation by Christopher Wood where Bond looks out of an MI6 window and eulogises on the Britain he loves, and it seems wildly out of character- he may wear a Union Jack parachute but he never seems all that fond of Britain; he prefers spending his time out of it after all. And Fleming speaks more admiringly of the United States than he does Britain as I remember in the novels.

#24 Revelator

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 05:04 PM

Well which is it? Hardly-subtle or easy-to-miss?


I've gone back and taken out that first dash for clarity.

There's a bit in the Spy Who Loved Me novelisation by Christopher Wood where Bond looks out of an MI6 window and eulogises on the Britain he loves, and it seems wildly out of character


Would that bit in Dr. No where a homesick Bond thinks back fondly on England also be out of character? Or his passionate defense of Britain to Tiger Tananka?

And Fleming speaks more admiringly of the United States than he does Britain as I remember in the novels.


You'll have to let me know where such passages are, because Fleming's portraits of Harlem, Florida, and Las Vegas do not seem all that admiring. Some (Christopher Hitchens comes to mind) have even spoken of Fleming as slightly anti-American, though I would not go so far. The Smersh conference in FRWL is clear evidence of how Fleming built up Britain at America's expense. David Cannadine's In Churchill's Shadow makes an excellent case for Fleming's work as a deliberate attempt to raise England's wounded national pride.

Edited by Revelator, 19 August 2010 - 05:10 PM.


#25 Major Tallon

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 05:41 PM

It wouldn't hurt to re-visit Anthony Burgess' 1987 introduction to the Bond novels.

On Bond as hedonist: "In Bond there is a powerful vein of puritanism and a capacity for self-disgust which denies the amorality of his murderous calling and its sensual compensations."

On Bond's patriotism: "What Fleming did was to dream of an espionage system far more dangerous and ingenious than reality allowed, and to man it with a new kind of agent, one 'licensed to kill'. American respect and Soviet fear of this dream figure attached itself to the servace that employed him and, by a natural extension, to Great Britain herself. There was a patriotic motive hiding behind Fleming's primary desire, which was to entertain."

#26 marktmurphy

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:31 PM


Well which is it? Hardly-subtle or easy-to-miss?


I've gone back and taken out that first dash for clarity.


I still don't get it even without the dash; the two are opposites.

There's a bit in the Spy Who Loved Me novelisation by Christopher Wood where Bond looks out of an MI6 window and eulogises on the Britain he loves, and it seems wildly out of character


Would that bit in Dr. No where a homesick Bond thinks back fondly on England also be out of character? Or his passionate defense of Britain to Tiger Tananka?


It's been years so I honestly don't remember those moments; two in fourteen books doesn't make him seem driven by a passion for the country. There's so much more in the way of Bond's need for excitement or his love for women, the high life etc. than there is love for Britannia, making him look like he's more interested in enriching his personal experiences than he is in political idealism. He's more adventurer than activist.

And Fleming speaks more admiringly of the United States than he does Britain as I remember in the novels.


You'll have to let me know where such passages are, because Fleming's portraits of Harlem, Florida, and Las Vegas do not seem all that admiring. Some (Christopher Hitchens comes to mind) have even spoken of Fleming as slightly anti-American, though I would not go so far. The Smersh conference in FRWL is clear evidence of how Fleming built up Britain at America's expense. David Cannadine's In Churchill's Shadow makes an excellent case for Fleming's work as a deliberate attempt to raise England's wounded national pride.


He tries to make the UK seem stronger than it was, yes; but to stand next to the US- I always got the impression that he was impressed by the US. Live and Let Die is quite positive as I remember; Bond even goes native and feels at home there.

#27 Revelator

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 06:38 PM

I still don't get it even without the dash; the two are opposites.


The "hardly" is applied to both "subtle" and "easy-to-miss."

It's been years so I honestly don't remember those moments; two in fourteen books doesn't make him seem driven by a passion for the country.


But you can find something in practically every novel that indicates this, ranging from Bond's reflections on the cliffs of Dover in Moonraker to his remark about how the British can do things "supremely well" in OHMSS (where Bond even praises British cooking!) and so forth. Cannadine gives a good catalogue of Bond's patriotic thoughts and comments.

There's so much more in the way of Bond's need for excitement or his love for women, the high life etc. than there is love for Britannia, making him look like he's more interested in enriching his personal experiences than he is in political idealism. He's more adventurer than activist.


But the Bond books aren't simply about high living--that exists in a symbiotic relationship with hard living, and both are validated by Bond's moral sentiments. Bond is certainly not an activist--his concept of patriotism is passive, but it's bedrock. He does what he does because he believes enough in his country to act as its blunt instrument. In that respect, Bond is still part of the "clubland hero" tradition, and LeCarre could have more convincingly attacked Bond for that aspect instead. Bond lives in a world where England rarely does wrong--when Bond does his country's dirty work, it's almost always for a good cause (and with the small-time exception of Major Smythe, no Englishman does anything wrong in Bond's universe).

He tries to make the UK seem stronger than it was, yes; but to stand next to the US- I always got the impression that he was impressed by the US. Live and Let Die is quite positive as I remember; Bond even goes native and feels at home there.


As I recall, he says he physically fits in because of the "mixed blood" of Americans, but it's hard to miss how awful Fleming makes Florida look, or how he portrays Harlem as being plagued by both voodoo and communism. The persistent message of the Bond books is that the Americans may have money and power, but it takes a British agent to beat smash voodoo rings, save Fort Knox, and prevent nuclear holocausts.

#28 Johnboy007

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 07:49 PM

it's hard to miss how awful Fleming makes Florida look


Most of the Florida criticism was about the Tampa Bay/St Petersburg area being populated exclusively by old people. That's still true today so I don't see how you can argue against it. Also said that most things looked dead and dessicated from the heat. Without reliable A/C, I think it's a pretty fair thing to say during a miserably hot and humid summer in Florida. Other than that I only see complaints about the food and the coffee. Given that most of Fleming's food preferences are terrible I don't give much credence to his opinions.

#29 Stephen Spotswood

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 12:31 AM

I think Ian Fleming beat John Le Carre out the gate with a darker version of the traditional hero. James Bond was no Saint, nor Neyland Smith of Scotland Yard. He seemed closer to the Mickey Spillane type character he made fun of in the book Diamonds are forever, with a hard drinking, hard fighting, hard womanizing attitude, but with a certain British panache.

Bond seems to alternate between wanting to ravish women, or saving them from themselves. This is a man who often seems to be reduced to animal appetites only. He likes fine food, but is often starving for days as a prisoner or in the field. He likes fine clothes, but they can be literally ripped from his body.

James Bond is a spy who is like a vanguard, and calls in the commandos to finish the job when he's done, although he usually kills the bad guy himself.

I tend to picture a darker haired Peter O'Toole type that might be taken for a weakling by the bad guys, before he lashes out army style, not brawling. Perhaps Bond could be compared to a Lord Byron type who'd could hold his own in a bar room brawl.

This is a man who probably was a patriot, King and Country, and all that, when he was young, but starting with Casino Royale we are seeing the wreck he has become, questioning everything, why he's doing what he's doing, is he just playing game of Cowboys and Indians, why are agents the world over killing each other, when it's nothing personal, just orders?

James Bond is like the original Hurt Locker, a soldier who's now so addicted to the danger and the adrenalin, that he cannot leave it, although he takes breaks with his martinis, cigarettes and hedonistic lifestyle. He protects the world of normalcy of 9-5 jobs, homes in the suburbs, wife and kids, although he can no longer be a part of that world.

And then Ian Fleming places this character into plots that sometimes seem reminiscent of the old pulp novels and gangster movies.

And strangely enough he seem to anticipate the kind of threats we have today from terrorism.