16 replies to this topic

[Auric64]

Re another thread regarding the QoS PTS "getting better and better", maybe it`s just me, but, from a logical point of view, (as opposed to the action side of it) I don`t think the sequence works at all.

What are Mr. White`s/Quantum men doing in this sequence? Are they trying to rescue Mr. White? If so, why are they shooting at the Aston? Perhaps they`re aim is to disable the Aston, force it off the road and rescue White that way, but there is also the possibility that, trying to achieve this, the machine gun fire could hit White in the car`s boot, thus killing him, and defeating the object of his rescue in the first place. Likewise the same thing could occur if the Aston was forced off the road and White was killed in the resulting crash. Yes, it`s possible that White could have survived if the Aston had crashed, but in planning the operation, would Quantum have taken a 50/50 chance on it going the way they wanted, i.e. White`s survival?

If the attack on the Aston was to rescue White, why was Mitchell already in Italy, waiting to rescue White from the forthcoming MI6 interrogation? Some will defend this by saying that a back up plan was required, but wouldn`t it have been better for the Quantum organisation to have had just Mitchell rescue White in the MI6 building? As it turned out, the MI6 building was the best environment in which to rescue White, because Mitchell was able to control the situation better, unlike the Aston attack on an open, winding road, where just about anything could have happened.

Likewise, if the attack on the Aston was to kill White, (thus preventing him from revealing anything about the Quantum organisation to MI6) why, shortly afterwards, did Mitchell help White escape? Why didn`t Mitchell just shoot White there and then?

As an exciting action packed sequence, the car chase works for me. As a logical sequence of events taking place just after Bond meets White at the end of CR, it doesn`t.

Anyone else agree/disagree?

Best

Andy

Edited by Auric64, 20 May 2010 - 09:30 AM.

[jamie00007]

Quantums main aim, imo, was not to kill White or rescue him, it was first and foremost to avoid exposure. Mitchell was the backup plan, but it also meant that Quantum (and Mitchell) were exposed, which is what they were trying to prevent in the chase.

I dont think it mattered so much whether White was killed or rescued in the chase, either way would have prevented him from falling into MI6's hands which was the main objective. They failed, so they had to go to the backup plan which meant compromising Mitchell, who in his position would have been invaluable to them, and it also tipped off M that MI6 itself had been compromised by Quantum.

The chase was basically a last ditch effort to save themselves and Mitchell from exposure. Failing that they had to sacrifice one of their highest placed double agents to get White out of there.

As to why Mitchell didnt kill White, White is obviously a high up guy (and I get the impression he's the one Mitchell is working for, they seem pretty familiar with eachother), much better to try to get him out alive and kill M instead. They just didnt count on Bond's reflexes and fast thinking.

Edited by jamie00007, 20 May 2010 - 09:33 AM.

[Zorin Industries]

The sequence works extremely well.

If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't keep rewatching it. It won't help. But for those that like SOLACE and rate the pre title sequence then it is the perfect overture to the film - a Bond entry that throws you in late and makes you leave early in most of its beats. If you want ABC exposition in every scene of every Bond film, then tough - it ain't happening any more...! ;o)

[The Shark]

The sequence works extremely well.

If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't keep rewatching it. It won't help. But for those that like SOLACE and rate the pre title sequence then it is the perfect overture to the film - a Bond entry that throws you in late and makes you leave early in most of its beats. If you want ABC exposition in every scene of every Bond film, then tough - it ain't happening any more...! ;o)

For one film?

[Auric64]

Quantums main aim, imo, was not to kill White or rescue him, it was first and foremost to avoid exposure. Mitchell was the backup plan, but it also meant that Quantum (and Mitchell) were exposed, which is what they were trying to prevent in the chase.

I dont think it mattered so much whether White was killed or rescued in the chase, either way would have prevented him from falling into MI6's hands which was the main objective. They failed, so they had to go to the backup plan which meant compromising Mitchell, who in his position would have been invaluable to them, and it also tipped off M that MI6 itself had been compromised by Quantum.

The chase was basically a last ditch effort to save themselves and Mitchell from exposure. Failing that they had to sacrifice one of their highest placed double agents to get White out of there.

As to why Mitchell didnt kill White, White is obviously a high up guy (and I get the impression he's the one Mitchell is working for, they seem pretty familiar with eachother), much better to try to get him out alive and kill M instead. They just didnt count on Bond's reflexes and fast thinking.

Once Mitchell shot the MI6 agent dead, and was forced to escape, (having not killed Bond and also not knowing at that moment if he had killed M or not) his cover was blown in that moment. It would have made no difference if Bond had brought him back for interrogation or, as it turned out, had killed him, Quantum would have been exposed.

Best

Andy

[jamie00007]

Once Mitchell shot the MI6 agent dead, and was forced to escape, (having not killed Bond and also not knowing at that moment if he had killed M or not) his cover was blown in that moment. It would have made no difference if Bond had brought him back for interrogation or, as it turned out, had killed him, Quantum would have been exposed.

Thats my point, Quantum certainly wouldnt have wanted Mitchell to have to blow his cover to rescue White. Thats what they were trying to prevent by rescuing/killing White in the chase before he got there. But they failed, so they had to resort to Mitchell blowing his cover to get White out of there. It was the lesser of two evils, Mitchell blowing his cover was preferred to having a high up guy like White in MI6 hands. Even if they caught Mitchell and interrogated him, it would have been better to have someone like Mitchell captured than someone like Mr White who seems to be very high in Quantums chain of command.

Had they succeeded in rescuing or killing White during the chase, all that could have been avoided, MI6 would never have gotten White and Mitchell would have been able to maintain his cover. But they failed and had to sacrifice Mitchell's cover to get White out.

Edited by jamie00007, 20 May 2010 - 10:25 AM.

[Auric64]

The sequence works extremely well.

If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't keep rewatching it. It won't help. But for those that like SOLACE and rate the pre title sequence then it is the perfect overture to the film - a Bond entry that throws you in late and makes you leave early in most of its beats. If you want ABC exposition in every scene of every Bond film, then tough - it ain't happening any more...! ;o)

Wow, Zorin, once again you defend Qos when, in this case, you don`t have to.

All I asked when I started this thread was answers to my questions. In your reply you have offered me nothing, except to say, "Don`t keep rewatching it. It won`t help."

For your information, I don`t, as you say, "keep rewatching it." because the film isn`t a favourite of mine. I haven`t watched it in months, and don`t plan to do so for a very long time. That doesn`t mean, however, that I can`t like a sequence(s) in it. I don`t care much for Moonraker, but I love the PTS, (well, until Jaws begins flying through the air).

I had these thoughts immediately after the PTS had ended, on my FIRST viewing of the film, having seen it at a charity screening a few days before the general public saw it. Now, a forum like this, enables one to ask questions and hopefully get replies that may enlighten them to see something that they didn`t see originally.

Jamie00007 took the time to reply, and give a version that he believes in, and I thank him for doing that. I don`t agree with his version and have replied, explaining why I think this. Perhaps someone else on here will come up with something that will make me see the sequence in a more positive/different light.

I guess you won`t be doing that, because it`s much easier just to diss someone, (because they don`t like something that you do) instead of taking a bit of time to give their thoughts on the subject matter and give a different opinion/take on it.

Best

Andy

[Zorin Industries]

How to see the pre title overture to SOLACE in a better light...

The sequence is about the story - not the stunt (the stunt in question is the whole panache and guile of the chase - in the old days we would have someone jumping off a cliff for the wow factor, now we have a breathless overture that is visceral, painful and exactly what it is like being involved in a high speed chase and crash/es). The whole chase is about BOND VS QUANTUM. It's there from the get-go. The film does the same - so the pre title sequence is not some jarring overture but a deliberate teaser completely linked to the film itself.

The sequence suggests we are a bit late. It has already started when we are allowed in. THAT is clever. Like the creatures in JAWS and ALIEN, we are filling in more gaps and creating what happened in our heads - rather than having every beat of the second unit's expertise laid bare with expositional awkwardness.

The machinations of WHITE / QUANTUM, BOND and MI6 are there. BOND has the treasure (MR WHITE) and QUANTUM want it back. That is all you need to know. There are countless times in countless other Bond films where the logic and progression of who knows what and who could have done what is not the point.

The sequence takes the cinematic car chase a bit further. You can have countless static mid-shot cutaways detailing every wider master shot if you like. But how many times has cinema and Bond done that already? Bond is about pushing the envelope, not buying a multipack of exactly the same ones.



Just my thoughts...

(Re Jamie's thoughts. All good and fair. But the character of MITCHELL - however and whoever kills / frees or questions him - has no audience cache or appeal. MR WHITE was a favourite of ROYALE and a welcome return for the wider audience who don't notice the story links the way the fans do. MITCHELL is not in the film to help QUANTUM either way. He is a narrative device to allow MR WHITE to escape (MITCHELL's impulsive actions create a window for WHITE to flee) and to underline for MI6 and the audience that Quantum does indeed have "people everywhere")

[David Schofield]

Auric 64, try this reading.

Hubris. Not Bond's of course, but Quantum's.

Consider the evidence. This is not the fully formed Bond "we know and love"™. He is a rookie. How many times does M berate him in CR, particularly early on? This is not the man who has saved world's etc. As M points out, she knew it was too EARLY to promote him. He is a novice. There is no "James Bond" biography among rival espionage organsiations (nor, I should add, among the world's barmen).

So what did we see? Quantum in CR had two clear opportunities to kill Bond; after White shoots Le Chiffre and as Bond is crying his eyes out over Vesper. Why? Because they didn't think he was a threat! Similarly, later, obviously oblivious to the carnage Bond has wrought on the Quantum motor fleet not long before, Mitchell choses to shoot a nameless guard and NOT James Bond! Why? Obviously because Quantum did not rate James Bond, the little guy with the tight suits, lifts, craggy face, etc.

So to answer your question about the PTS, Quantum simply thought when Bond saw the Quantum artillery he was up against, he would simply pull the Aston to the side of the road and hand White over.

Obviously, Quantum underestimated James Bond relentless skills. As, in their defence, numerous other nutcases and their organisations would do as Bond's career and reputation developed.

That do you as justification for their actions?

[Lachesis]

I can't agree that the PTS is mysteriously more about the story than the stunt presentation than most preceeding Bond's, nor that the cinematic brings anything radically new to cinema art, it was what every Bond PTS offers a burst of excitment to kickstart the film a moodsetter or teaser for what is to come.

The only real link/treat to Quantum is White and we can only presume, given the response, that whether he is rescued or killed is irrelevent, but even in killing Bond in that chase was likely to open the doors for deeper investigation so it could only be a form of damage mitigation for the organisation. Indeed White later says that Quantum believe MI6/CIA know about Quantum already in any event (he is amused at the fact they are just being paranoid) so the literal impact of the sequnece if Mitchelle had stayed silent might be to prove MI6 know less than ever with or without White (whose status we really do not know).....though through Mitchell you'd really think they knew more accurately the level of intel they held already, its not entirely consistent.

What I find more difficult to understand is the subsequent footchase with Mitchell (and I'm not reffering to the editing), I see zero logic behind his actions - he has Bond, M and white down, is comfortably the first to his gun and......he runs, there were so many positive options he could have pursued and he elects to take what to me is the most destructive, of course he could have panicked, but is this therefore the same guy that worked double agent for how long and to how deep?

Ultimately the questions raised become less important depending on the entertainment value you get from the sequence, but we have to accept them for what they are, no more no less....if you enjoy them isn't that enough?

[Auric64]

Once Mitchell shot the MI6 agent dead, and was forced to escape, (having not killed Bond and also not knowing at that moment if he had killed M or not) his cover was blown in that moment. It would have made no difference if Bond had brought him back for interrogation or, as it turned out, had killed him, Quantum would have been exposed.

Thats my point, Quantum certainly wouldnt have wanted Mitchell to have to blow his cover to rescue White. Thats what they were trying to prevent by rescuing/killing White in the chase before he got there. But they failed, so they had to resort to Mitchell blowing his cover to get White out of there. It was the lesser of two evils, Mitchell blowing his cover was preferred to having a high up guy like White in MI6 hands. Even if they caught Mitchell and interrogated him, it would have been better to have someone like Mitchell captured than someone like Mr White who seems to be very high in Quantums chain of command.

Had they succeeded in rescuing or killing White during the chase, all that could have been avoided, MI6 would never have gotten White and Mitchell would have been able to maintain his cover. But they failed and had to sacrifice Mitchell's cover to get White out.

You make some good points. Perhaps I should explain my points in a different way.

At the beginning of the PTS, we, the audience, see Bond`s Aston being fired at. From that we would assume that at that moment in time, those in the chasing car wanted to kill Bond. How would we assume that? Well, if they had wanted Bond alive, would they be firing so recklessly at the Aston, where a stray bullet could kill him? I don`t think so. There would be easier ways to disable the Aston without having to fire at it and force Bond to stop.

Now, those in the chasing car, (the Quantum members) know that White is in Bond`s car, (though at this point many in the audience wouldn`t necessarily know that White is in the car, because all they see is Bond, and some might not remember White`s capture at the end of CR) and if they`re brief is to rescue White, why would they endanger his life by firing so recklessly at the Aston, when White could also be killed by a stray bullet?

So, it`s logical to assume for those in the audience, (including the Bond fans) that the Quantum members want Bond (and White in the boot) dead. At this point in the narrative no one knows that Quantum does, in fact, want White alive. When Mitchell shoots the MI6 agent, and not White, we realise that Mitchell is there to get White out. This, then, is at odds with the car chase, when we were then thinking that the Quantum members wanted Bond and White dead.

The two sequences would have worked together if Mitchell had finished the job those in the car failed to do, and kill White before MI6 interrograted him. As you have said, Mitchell, had he lived, would have been interrogated by MI6, but wouldn`t have known anywhere near the stuff White would know. In this respect, Quantum`s identity would still be relatively safe.

I believe that the interrogation scene would have worked on its own, had the PTS started when Bond`s car entered the MI6 building. The car chase before the interrogation has the audience believing one thing, then being asked to believe something else. That`s fine if it`s a twist of some kind, but the change seems to be just to get two action sequences into the first 10-15 minutes of the film, regardless whether the narrative works or not.

I`m not the only Bond fan I know who feels this way about the PTS. Maybe those on here that think we`re wrong, can steer us right and make things a little clearer.

Best

Andy

[SecretAgentFan]

... also: the sequence makes it clear that Mr.White is replaceable and CANNOT be the secret No.1 of QUANTUM. He is just one foot soldier whose knowledge would be dangerous if Mi6 got hold of it.

It also alludes to Mr.White not really being trusted by QUANTUM to keep his mouth shut.

That´s why Mitchell is not afraid to blow his cover. I don´t think that he absolutely intends to free Mr.White. Things happen so fast in that moment that it also could very well be that Mitchell wants to just silence Mr.White and then flee.

Since White does manage to get out without having told more than "We have people everywhere", he resumes working for QUANTUM and therefore enjoys the opera meeting.

Personally, I would love him to return in BOND 23. Wouldn´t that be fun, having not the master honcho a la Blofeld return again and again but one of the foot soldiers?

In any event, the PTS works brilliantly and - like the rest of the film - is very clear and simple in the way it tells the story. Simple, however, does not mean boringly straight.

[Auric64]

Thanks to all those who replied, your contributions have certainly given me food for thought. I`ll have to watch the film again, (well, maybe just the PTS) to see if your comments have changed any of my views.

Thanks again,

Best

Andy

Edited by Auric64, 20 May 2010 - 12:46 PM.

[DaveBond21]

Apart from the editing, which has been discussed to death elsewhere, my other problem with the PTS is how much it devalues the final scene in CR. Here we have a classic moment where Bond has shot Mr White in the leg, and the bad guy is at Bond's mercy. Then he says the immortal line.

and the Bond theme kicks in - excellent.

But now we know that before the day is over, Bond will have somehow managed to lose Mr White. Kinda puts a dampener on things now.

[Guy Haines]

Quantum may not have wanted Mitchell to blow his cover, but when Mr White remarks "We have people everywhere" and then looks up at Mitchell and says to him "Am I right?", he's almost inviting him to reveal his true colours.

As for the car chase, Quantum might have wanted Mr White rescued, or if all else failed, dead. It would certainly not have wanted him questioned by MI6. Mitchell may have been there as part of a backup plan, but for what isn't entrely clear to me. To kill White and everyone else? Or to cause mayhem on command of the magic words "Am I right?" in the hope that White would flee in the ensuing chaos. (although quite how a man with a serious leg wound could suddenly get up and run away is beyond me. White must have either had other inside help we didn't see, or else had superhuman powers of recuperation! )

Or it might have been one of life's happy coincidences that, just as the interrogation is about to start, who should be there but one of those people that Quantum has everywhere. What a stroke of luck! No wonder Mr White found the whole interrogation business amusing.

[jamie00007]

Quantum may not have wanted Mitchell to blow his cover, but when Mr White remarks "We have people everywhere" and then looks up at Mitchell and says to him "Am I right?", he's almost inviting him to reveal his true colours.

I think thats exactly what he was doing. I dont think the interrogation thing was planned, or the chase. Otherwise White would have known Bond was coming for him and not been caught to begin with. Somehow Quantum found out what was happening after Bond got White, either they got tipped off by Mitchell or White somehow got a distress call out or something, and they quickly managed to get some henchmen after them. When that failed I think the whole interrogation scene was improvised. Obviously Mitchell and White wouldnt have been able to plan it out beforehand. White turning to Mitchell and saying "Am I right?" was his cue for Mitchell to act.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Mitchell had already acted before the interrogation began because he killed the guard in the passageway when he went to check the perimeter.

I think it's pretty easy to determine what happened leading up to the start of the PTS. Bond's unknown vehicle had to have been seen leaving White's estate or else he wouldn't have been chased. Immediately after Bond leaves, White's men had to have spotted their boss' blood on the driveway and quickly put two and two together and take off after Bond. They obviously haven't been firing on Bond before the PTS because 1) they are loading their automatic weapons when we first see them and 2) Bond's car is undamaged by bullets. No doubt White's men would have radioed a higher-up Quantum member of the situation, a member who has either belatedly learned from Mitchell of the operation to abduct White or who quickly contacts Mitchell to learn if he knows if MI6 is behind it. Whether Mitchell is able to confirm or not that MI6 is abducting White, he would have then been ordered to rescue White if Bond gets him to the safe house. Mitchell then begins making preparations to make their escape.

White obviously knew that Mitchell was a Quantum member and had to have known, or at least suspected, that the organization had an escape plan for him/them in play and so he gave Mitchell his cue to act at the first available opportunity.

As for White's men firing on Bond's car, I think they are most likely just trying to stop Bond in an effort to rescue White, but if White is killed in the process then he would probably be viewed simply as collateral damage--at least he wouldn't reveal any of Quantum's secrets to MI6.