55 replies to this topic

[Daddy Bond]

Now, let me say at the start that the Goldeneye PTS is actually one of my favorite PTS's (up there with QOS, TSWLM, GF, TLD, etc.). There are a lot of things I like about this PTS. However, there are a FEW things I'm not fond of. Anyone share these slight dislikes?

1. Why didn't Bond's body slam up against the dam wall when he bungee jumped? I've never bungee jumped - perhaps there are some physics involved that I have missed, but it seems to me that he should have hit the wall at some point.

2. Broz looks really sissy and silly with his handling of his Walther and silencer when he first comes out of the men's room (IMHO) - kindof like a kid pretending to be Bond.

3. Why did 006 and 007 need to identify one another? Don't they know each other pretty well? The room was definitely not too dark for 006 to recognize 007 IMO. Perhaps to make sure that neither had been compromised - but still.

4. Why did 006 put that electronic door opening device back into the door lock once they had access to that room where they were going to place the charges? Yes, I know that 006's plan was to alert the guards on purpose (so I understand HIS reasoning for doing it), but clearly it was part of the double-o plan that he do that, but why??? You're in the room, I would have just let well enough alone and not risk setting off the alarm. Perhaps to lock the door once inside.

5. I just don't buy the physics of Bond pulling the plane out of its dive in time (any more than that helicopter that fell out of the plane at the end of DAD).

6. I don't like Broz's shaking of the plane's control stick - seemed very fake - not at all like the shaking you'd expect if he was fighting the plane's dive - the stick seemed too loose.

Any other problems with the Goldeneye PTS???

[JimmyBond]

1) From the looks of things, the damn curved inward before sloping back outwards. Perhaps Bond pushed off with enough force that he was far enough away from the damn that he wouldnt hit the side. By the time he recoiled, he had already fired the hook to anchor himself to the bottom.

3) I can't possibly come up with an in-universe reason. It was simply there to let the audience know who Sean Bean's character was.

4) I wondered that too until I figured he put it back up there to lock the door, in case anyone tried to ruin the party.

[DaveBond21]

Well, the entire plot doesn't really make sense, because Alec Trevelyan had countless chances to kill Bond before Ourumov and the guards arrived.

But it's a Bond movie, so I forgive these little issues!

My only other problem is the line from Trevelyan:- "Closing time, James! Last call!"

Since they are both Brits, they wouldn't use an American bar expression, and would more likely say "Last orders", as in the term used in British pubs before closing time.

[Daddy Bond]

Well, the entire plot doesn't really make sense, because Alec Trevelyan had countless chances to kill Bond before Ourumov and the guards arrived.

But it's a Bond movie, so I forgive these little issues!

My only other problem is the line from Trevelyan:- "Closing time, James! Last call!"

Since they are both Brits, they wouldn't use an American bar expression, and would more likely say "Last orders", as in the term used in British pubs before closing time.

Very interesting. I hadn't caught onto that tidbit of info.

[Jim]

It's outrageously homoerotic and this makes it tolerable as a result. Without such amusing frisson, it's a bit, y'know, there.

[captnash2]

my problem is with the big stunt with the plane.
the bluesctreen work was terrible.

either they should have had bond skydive towards the plane in one continuous shot as he did with the ski parachute bit in TSWLM or they should filmed it as they did the plane slide stunt in 'cliffhanger'.

[zerominus]

Well, the entire plot doesn't really make sense, because Alec Trevelyan had countless chances to kill Bond before Ourumov and the guards arrived.

But it's a Bond movie, so I forgive these little issues!

My only other problem is the line from Trevelyan:- "Closing time, James! Last call!"

Since they are both Brits, they wouldn't use an American bar expression, and would more likely say "Last orders", as in the term used in British pubs before closing time.

But did Alec want to kill Bond in the PTS? I thought it was because Bond left him behind (to die) having changed the timer, that he wanted to kill him years later when re-acquainted.

[tim partridge]

Can anyone actually explain to me clearly the intent of the OO6 "death" plan and the resulting scar on his face? It didn't make sense to me in 1995 and still doesn't now. Was it supposed to appear that the scar appeared after Ourumov shot OO6 and grazed his face to make the gunshot look authentic to Bond, or was it because of the chemical facility explosion that he was presumably engulfed by?

Also, how the heck does the dam connect to the chemical facility when it's clearly not there as Bond escapes by plane? Wouldn't it have burst open or have been badly contaminated?

my problem is with the big stunt with the plane.
the bluesctreen work was terrible.

either they should have had bond skydive towards the plane in one continuous shot as he did with the ski parachute bit in TSWLM or they should filmed it as they did the plane slide stunt in 'cliffhanger'.

In the behind the scenes footage there were some great takes of the stuntmen freefalling towards the plane for real, so like you I don't see why they needed those extra, lingering composite shots. I think the motion control shots of the model plane are equally as naff, and I really dislike that very static looking motion control POV from the plane as it soars down the baking powder and papier mache mountain. It looks so artificial and tiny.

I remember when watching the film at the cinema what really struck me out was that incredibly static extreme wide matte shot of the chemical plant, with the army chasing Bond in the middle of it (out of focus). That and the obvious, boxy CGI plane flying over the mountain as it explodes (running at an obviously different frame rate to the model work).

I kinda wish GoldenEye had been made before the advent of digital, because I think had they been forced into doing it all in camera like the Glen films it would have been much improved, in my opinion. They also wouldn't have had the money/luxury of motion control and instead just tried to fake it all with fast editing, force perspective, stunts and models.

Edited by tim partridge, 30 March 2010 - 10:41 AM.

[sharpshooter]

Was it supposed to appear that the scar appeared after Ourumov shot OO6 and grazed his face to make the gunshot look authentic to Bond, or was it because of the chemical facility explosion that he was presumably engulfed by?

The scar was from the chemical explosion.

"It wasn't God who gave me this face. It was you, setting the timers for three minutes instead of six."

[David Schofield]

My take has always been that Treveleyan worked loyally as a Brit until 1986.

He then feels betrayed by Bond with the timers/the gunshot/explosion of the factory screwing with his head and he starts working with Orumov building the Janus syndicate as the Soviet Union collapses. He probably uses the fact that his parents were Lienz Cossaks as a way of justifying and easing his guilt as betraying Britain and his friend, Bond.

My best guess to make it workable, anyway.

[Marcato]

i've always believed that Alec was shot with some kind of sleep bullet (like the one used on animals to get them to sleep when examinate them in africa) hence the reason to need six minuttes - perhaps the dosis were set to 2 or 2½ minutes and Alec needed to get in safe range before the explosion - and then while he is on his way to a safe place the building explodes and he get's the scar

[Lachesis]

My take has always been that Treveleyan worked loyally as a Brit until 1986.

He then feels betrayed by Bond with the timers/the gunshot/explosion of the factory screwing with his head and he starts working with Orumov building the Janus syndicate as the Soviet Union collapses. He probably uses the fact that his parents were Lienz Cossaks as a way of justifying and easing his guilt as betraying Britain and his friend, Bond.

My best guess to make it workable, anyway.

Its a while since I saw this one, as I have been patiently waiting for the Blu Ray, but I think Treveleyan is certainly planning to fake his death to slip out of MI6 (either taking Bond down with him or using him as a patsy)...so his defection must have begun prior to this incident (perhaps on discovering his parentage and their fate in WW2 at some unknown juncture before)?

[David Schofield]

My take has always been that Treveleyan worked loyally as a Brit until 1986.

He then feels betrayed by Bond with the timers/the gunshot/explosion of the factory screwing with his head and he starts working with Orumov building the Janus syndicate as the Soviet Union collapses. He probably uses the fact that his parents were Lienz Cossaks as a way of justifying and easing his guilt as betraying Britain and his friend, Bond.

My best guess to make it workable, anyway.

Its a while since I saw this one, as I have been patiently waiting for the Blu Ray, but I think Treveleyan is certainly planning to fake his death to slip out of MI6 (either taking Bond down with him or using him as a patsy)...so his defection must have begun prior to this incident (perhaps on discovering his parentage and their fate in WW2 at some unknown juncture before)?

My problem with any idea of pre-planning by Trevelyan is why would he tell Bond to "blow them all to hell" if he wanted to survive: surely, he knows his death and that of Bond is irrelevant in the successful destruction of the chemical plant (in Gardner's novelisation, he plays up on how vital it is that the chemical being produced HAS to be destroyed).

[Lachesis]

But surely Orumov's shooting Treveleyan has to be a set up by prior arrangement? 006 may have been a loyal agent originally but something prior to this mission generated the need to defect or disapear (perhaps the destruction of this base, blamed on MI6, is enough to create an instability that he exploits to rise in the ranks etc).

[Royal Dalton]

I tend to put these sorts of things down to bad writing.

[David Schofield]

But surely Orumov's shooting Treveleyan has to be a set up by prior arrangement? 006 may have been a loyal agent originally but something prior to this mission generated the need to defect or disapear (perhaps the destruction of this base, blamed on MI6, is enough to create an instability that he exploits to rise in the ranks etc).

Not sure. An awful lot of colatoral damage just for Trevelyan to defect. And it enables Bond to get into the chemical factory (and blow it up). Surely, a more "professional" effort could have been made to disguise Trevelyan's defection AND get Bond as well?

I take it that Orumov actually shot to kill Trevelyan when he was on his knees.

And note there is no mention of any trechery by Trevelyan at MI6 in 1995: Bond remarks to the effect he feels guilty he got Trevelyan killed - surely, had there been evidence that Trevelyan was a double agent, Bond wouldn't have cared that he might have caused Trevelyan's death?

[Royal Dalton]

Okay, I've just had a look at Jeffrey Caine's original version of this scene. The whole thing is explained later on in the script as a set-up. Trevelyan was supposed to be 'killed' (along with Bond), whilst escaping from the chemical plant. But Bond spoiled the plan by allowing Trevelyan to be 'shot' and by setting the timers to go off early.

That still doesn't explain why Trevelyan allowed himself to be captured in the first place, though!

[Lachesis]

Okay, I've just had a look at Jeffrey Caine's original version of this scene. The whole thing is explained later on in the script as a set-up. Trevelyan was supposed to be 'killed' (along with Bond), whilst escaping from the chemical plant. But Bond spoiled the plan by allowing Trevelyan to be 'shot' and by setting the timers to go off early.

That still doesn't explain why Trevelyan allowed himself to be captured in the first place, though!

wasn't that to draw Bond out...again I can't shake the notion that Treveleyan was already duplicit in the affair.

[BryanHerbert]

I have a question, How did Trevelyan get captured so easily? I think Trevelyan was bad even in the beginning of the movie, everything was a setup. How come when Ourumouv shoots Trevelyan in the face he comes back later in the movie. Were the bullets blank? If they were then it was a definite setup, But Ourumouv Shot that guard when bond was behind that crate of barrels.

Edited by BryanHerbert, 30 March 2010 - 06:35 PM.

[stromberg]

1. Why didn't Bond's body slam up against the dam wall when he bungee jumped? I've never bungee jumped - perhaps there are some physics involved that I have missed, but it seems to me that he should have hit the wall at some point.

5. I just don't buy the physics of Bond pulling the plane out of its dive in time (any more than that helicopter that fell out of the plane at the end of DAD).

As to #1, in a German TV show a few months, they recreated the bungee stunt on location with a stuntman. With the proper equipment and a bit of training this can be done (there are videos of people doing the jump on Youtube). But what's definitely impossible is the part with the laser gun. But it's not as impossible as cutting the ice with a laser from his wristwatch in DAD - that one was just ridiculous.

In the same show, they also talked about that plane stunt. Absolutely impossible. When you watch that scene, you have to listen very carefully to hear a distant humming noise. That's Isaac Newton spinning in his grave

[jamie00007]

The biggest problem is what was the point of Trevelyan and Ourumov's big song and dance routine when they were just going to kill Bond anyway? Why did they need to have Bond see Trevelyan be "captured" and "killed" when they were just going to kill him?

[Royal Dalton]

Well, quite. None of it makes any sense.

[Turn]

The filmmakers obviously recalled Dalton's line from TLD, "Don't think, just let it happen." They figured audiences would be so thrilled by the arrival of Pierce Brosnan and fantastic stunts that we wouldn't think about plot details.

In doing so, they neglected that audiences had become more in tune with filmmaking and how it's done and not necessarily willing to accept what is handed to you. I've cringed for the last 15 years at the flying into the plane stunt.

[Daddy Bond]

The filmmakers obviously recalled Dalton's line from TLD, "Don't think, just let it happen." They figured audiences would be so thrilled by the arrival of Pierce Brosnan and fantastic stunts that we wouldn't think about plot details.

In doing so, they neglected that audiences had become more in tune with filmmaking and how it's done and not necessarily willing to accept what is handed to you. I've cringed for the last 15 years at the flying into the plane stunt.

Indeed, it would have been awesome if Bond had just caught up with the plane (while on the motorbike), just as he, the cycle and the plane sore off the end of the runway - having just a brief second where Bond catches some air, then literally slams into the plane (desperately grasping the edge of the open door) as the cycle plunges to the rocks below. I would have shot the moment of leaving the edge of the runway from overhead, up and back about 15 feet so that you don't see the plane leave the runway until it is suddenly upon you (if that makes sense as I've described it). Bond could have then pulled the plane out of a desperate (bur reasonable) dive.

[DaveBond21]

The filmmakers obviously recalled Dalton's line from TLD, "Don't think, just let it happen." They figured audiences would be so thrilled by the arrival of Pierce Brosnan and fantastic stunts that we wouldn't think about plot details.

In doing so, they neglected that audiences had become more in tune with filmmaking and how it's done and not necessarily willing to accept what is handed to you. I've cringed for the last 15 years at the flying into the plane stunt.

Ha ha. I love it! I love the flying in the plane stunt. It's perfect for a 1995 Bond movie. Yes, I joined in the laughter of the audience in the cinema, but we loved it and wouldn't have had it any other way.

[The Richmond Spy]

I always assumed 006 was not yet on Ouromov's side in the PTS, but he was planning something alone. This mission just happened to be where it all came to be. Ouromov was carrying a tranquilizer or some sort of "non-lethal" gun, so he could capture and question the spies (006 and 007)...they were worth much more alive than dead.

Eventually, 006 might have asked 007 to join in on his plan, but this just solidified his opinion that 007 was too loyal. So, once in custody, 006 begins to work with Ouromov and this exacerbates his scheme. You can tell by their unfamiliarity on the train that Ouromov and 006 weren't exactly best buds, but Ouromov/Russia was 006's vehicle for revenge. More of a partnership of convenience than choice.

Why is 006 so mad about 007 switching the times? Might have a little bit to do with nine years of persuasion?

[Dekard77]

my problem is with the big stunt with the plane.
the bluesctreen work was terrible.

either they should have had bond skydive towards the plane in one continuous shot as he did with the ski parachute bit in TSWLM or they should filmed it as they did the plane slide stunt in 'cliffhanger'.

I actually thought the bluescreen work was pretty good but the way he glides in seems effortless. Arnie pullled a similar stunt in Eraser a year later where the bluscreen work not very good, the effort and energy present on screen made it worthwhile to watch.

The bunjee jump, Brosnan walk all were fine. I just don't understand why Alec would let him live or get shot by Orumov later. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Either way one of my favourite Bonds! Campbell brought a particular direction to the series without being bland.

[David Schofield]

The filmmakers obviously recalled Dalton's line from TLD, "Don't think, just let it happen." They figured audiences would be so thrilled by the arrival of Pierce Brosnan and fantastic stunts that we wouldn't think about plot details.

In doing so, they neglected that audiences had become more in tune with filmmaking and how it's done and not necessarily willing to accept what is handed to you. I've cringed for the last 15 years at the flying into the plane stunt.

Ha ha. I love it! I love the flying in the plane stunt. It's perfect for a 1995 Bond movie. Yes, I joined in the laughter of the audience in the cinema, but we loved it and wouldn't have had it any other way.

True.

This was no longer Timothy Dalton's intense take on Fleming's Bond. Nor yet Daniel Craig's rugged everyman-Bond.

This was the very beautiful Pierce Brosnan Bond with his lovely flowing locks. And it worked perfectly in that context.

[Lachesis]

If you remove the presumption that Orumov and Trevleyan wanted Bond dead imo it actually makes sense. What they really wanted was a patsy.

Trevelyan isn't defecting to Communist Russia but rather to take his place at the head of the Russian Mafia (cant recall the name, still want to save the re watch for the hd version), Orumov is his stooge in the military. Trevelyan is effectively aiming to dissapear from both sides.

Trevelyan allows himself to be captured to draw Bond out so he can clearly see that he is shot in the head at close range...Bond is therefore conviced he is dead. Orumov aims to capture Bond, remove him from the room whereby Trevelyan can slip away and/or attempt to deactivate the bombs (thinking he had 6 minutes in either case). Orumov is hoping to have MI6 humiliated and Bond in his hands, becoming the hero for Mother Russia and allowing him to ascend in import becoming increasingly valuable to Trevelyans crime syndicate, later Bond will presumably be deported or allowed to escape to finalise the fate of 006 to the British.

What Bond does is to scupper/change the plan somewhat, escaping against the odds AND facilitating the explosion of the chemical works (whether Orumov/Trevleyan wanted this or not I cannot be clear but it is ultimately irrelevent later.)


Now to the admitedly ludicrous plane chase, we have to recall GE was Bonds return after an absence of 6 years. Reboots weren't even a concept at the time, the aim was to reintroduce the audience to the character and tone of 'a Bond movie'. The PTS is the key that sets the mood for the rest of the movie, it instructs the audiece in the level of 'suspension of disbelief' required to enjoy the film - the staples are laid out in rapid order and as long as these things are presented in an entertaining fashion the audience will buy them....never again does the film require quite the same level of concession in logic so everything else gets a free pass and is that bit more exciting as a result.

The PTS does exactly what it needed to in terms of character, audience investment and preparation for the movie beyond, the series was revitalised from its 6 year coma.

Edited by Lachesis, 31 March 2010 - 11:32 AM.

[Conlazmoodalbrocra]

If you remove the presumption that Orumov and Trevleyan wanted Bond dead imo it actually makes sense. What they really wanted was a patsy.

Trevelyan isn't defecting to Communist Russia but rather to take his place at the head of the Russian Mafia (cant recall the name, still want to save the re watch for the hd version), Orumov is his stooge in the military. Trevelyan is effectively aiming to dissapear from both sides.

Trevelyan allows himself to be captured to draw Bond out so he can clearly see that he is shot in the head at close range...Bond is therefore conviced he is dead. Orumov aims to capture Bond, remove him from the room whereby Trevelyan can slip away and/or attempt to deactivate the bombs (thinking he had 6 minutes in either case). Orumov is hoping to have MI6 humiliated and Bond in his hands, becoming the hero for Mother Russia and allowing him to ascend in import becoming increasingly valuable to Trevelyans crime syndicate, later Bond will presumably be deported or allowed to escape to finalise the fate of 006 to the British.

What Bond does is to scupper/change the plan somewhat, escaping against the odds AND facilitating the explosion of the chemical works (whether Orumov/Trevleyan wanted this or not I cannot be clear but it is ultimately irrelevent later.)


Now to the admitedly ludicrous plane chase, we have to recall GE was Bonds return after an absence of 6 years. Reboots weren't even a concept at the time, the aim was to reintroduce the audience to the character and tone of 'a Bond movie'. The PTS is the key that sets the mood for the rest of the movie, it instructs the audiece in the level of 'suspension of disbelief' required to enjoy the film - the staples are laid out in rapid order and as long as these things are presented in an entertaining fashion the audience will buy them....never again does the film require quite the same level of concession in logic so everything else gets a free pass and is that bit more exciting as a result.

The PTS does exactly what it needed to in terms of character, audience investment and preparation for the movie beyond, the series was revitalised from its 6 year coma.

Well said Lachesis, well said!