72 replies to this topic

[Bryce (003)]

Watching CR the other day, I do like the hard stare he gives himself in the mirror after the stairwell fight and slugging the tumbler of scotch. That sort of "What the Hell am I into?" moment with something to numb the debate.

That scene perhaps makes me think of Bond in the books more than any other scene in the entire series.

Cheers my friend. Remember the novel in OHMSS, Bond has a flask of schnapps after his ski down the mountain. But, re: your quote of my own , yes, the "gotta bandage myself up, clean myself up, stop the bleeding and put on a new shirt and get back to the game" totally is Fleming's Bond.

[The Shark]

a new composer providing a purely orchestral score

I agree. It annoys me that Barry didn't do more scores for the movies. But i don't remember Arnold being that bad.

Well, I thought score for the PTS, Le Chiffre's appearance, Miami sequence, Stairwell fight, and sinking house finale was awful, to be honest.

[Dr. Metz]

a new composer providing a purely orchestral score

I agree. It annoys me that Barry didn't do more scores for the movies. But i don't remember Arnold being that bad.

Well, I thought score for the PTS, Le Chiffre's appearance, Miami sequence, Stairwell fight, and sinking house finale was awful, to be honest.

IMO, the best scores of the bond franchise were Goldfinger, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds Are Forever, And Thunderball. Some of the others were annoying to listen to (I'm looking at you, FYEO), and some sounded too much like the era they were made in but were OK(LALD, TSWLM, Parts of TMWTGG). I haven't heard Arnold's score for Casino Royale in a while, I'll try and listen to it sometime.

[The Shark]

a new composer providing a purely orchestral score

I agree. It annoys me that Barry didn't do more scores for the movies. But i don't remember Arnold being that bad.

Well, I thought score for the PTS, Le Chiffre's appearance, Miami sequence, Stairwell fight, and sinking house finale was awful, to be honest.

IMO, the best scores of the bond franchise were Goldfinger, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Diamonds Are Forever, And Thunderball.

Those are probably my favourites too, I also love YOLT, FRWL, AVTAK, LALD and GE.

Some of the others were annoying to listen to (I'm looking at you, FYEO), and some sounded too much like the era they were made in but were OK(LALD, TSWLM, Parts of TMWTGG). I haven't heard Arnold's score for Casino Royale in a while, I'll try and listen to it sometime.

I would if I were you mate, particularly the expanded version of the soundtrack. The original release rather cleverly leaves out some of the more tarnishing, and sub-par tracks.

[Dr. Metz]

I just listened to a few of the tracks of the score so far (Parts of Miami International, License: 2 Kills, Stairwell Fight), and to be honest, i felt no emotions listening to them. With a soundtrack like Thunderball, when it came to the "Bond With SPECTRE Frogmen" and "Underwater Mayhem/Death Of Largo" scores, I felt like i was underwater with bond, and on the Disco Volante trying to stop Largo. With this, i felt little to nothing, not really being able to get into the music. It sounded generic, which was the complete opposite of Barry's scores. For example, the Diamonds Are Forever soundtrack, when Mr. Wint and Mr. Kidd appeared, they had their own theme. The theme was mysterious and creepy, fitting the characters to a T. With this soundtrack, however, it basically goes like this: quiet music or no music at all for dialogue, loud music for action. The tracks have no uniqueness from each other, as far as I've heard. Also, the "License: 2 Kills" track reminded me of someone banging their hands on a thin wooden table.

Edited by Dr. Metz, 14 April 2010 - 06:26 PM.

[blueman]

When I read the novels, I don't picture any one actor or person, which is a testament to Fleming IMO, the character he wrote is his own self entirely in my mind. EON helps with that a lot, even in DN they began introducing non-Fleming humor and presented Connery as a far more modern hero/anti-hero (for '62) than Fleming ever wrote the character (Bond would feel more at home in a Dornford Yates novel than an EON Bond film IMO): there's a bad boy feel to Connery's Bond in DN that carries through his tenure (the entire series IMO) which doesn't exist in Fleming's Bond. When Fleming's Bond makes choices counter to his orders (happens a lot), I never get the more youth-market oriented vibe of coolness that Connery exuded in his sleep. It's a uniquely cinematically-created side of Bond wholy to do with Connery's screen presence, matched perfectly to the times (ala Moore's more flippant tone in the 70s).

One thing I appreciate about Craig's Bond is the relative lack of EON-created Bond veneer. Sure there's some, but a lot less than with any actor we've yet seen in the role IMO. Fleming's Bond is nothing if not earnest, and Craig is very much that especially in the thrillerish QOS (one reason why I like that film so much). Some will laugh, but Lazenby may come the closest for me to the Bond Fleming wrote, the voiced-over one-liners pretty much suck but so much of Lazenby's presentation in OHMSS is so very Fleming IMO, again due to his (in an inexperienced, non-actory way) earnestness.

Moore had the ability to be Fleming-like, but the times were against him. He had a couple good scenes early on but his forte was a wink and a smile and it worked much better with general audiences than his serious moments (which I love and are very Fleming IMO). I can almost picture him as Fleming's Bond when I read the novels, but then the image of him smiling at Jaws blows that up, lol.

Dalton presents the same issue, just can't see his goofy grin on Fleming's Bond at all. And Brosnan seems altogether wrong, too slight and glib and even his more serious Bondy moments seem to riff on Moore's than to be honestly his own.

Fleming's Bond was a competent, sometimes highly skilled, usually incredibly lucky agent who needed that luck to survive most of the stories he was in. Craig actually checks those boxes for me, but transposing him to the world of Fleming's Bond is a tough fit, the modernity gets in the way, just too many social mores have changed since Fleming wrote his stories, I can't really divorce Fleming's stories - or characters - from his Bond world. I always think of the Bond world Fleming wrote as made-up as Tolkien's Middle-Earth or Burroughs's Africa, too many points of departure/conflict with reality (the era he was writing in, even the earlier era he was more active in before he started writing Bond stories); he wrote thrillers, in a highly romantic vein even if the "hero" went for sex more than love. Any actor will fail to embody this ideal, the best of them will hit some of it as we've seen, but the character in my mind when I read the stories is without a recognizable face - he's got one, mind, just ain't any of the usual suspects.

[AliasTheJester]

Moore had the ability to be Fleming-like, but the times were against him.

Not really; by the time of MOONRAKER perhaps that kind of campy fun was very much the order of the day, but in the age of LIVE AND LET DIE "nasty" cop thrillers like DIRTY HARRY and THE FRENCH CONNECTION were dominating the action genre and spawning copy-cats (e.g. MCQ) and nasty, "dark" films like THE EXORCIST were ringing Box Office bells loudly. Not that I think there was anything wrong with the lighter approach taken during the Moore era (far from it) but the idea it was necessary because of the times in never one that has sat well with me.

[The Shark]

Moore had the ability to be Fleming-like, but the times were against him.

Not really; by the time of MOONRAKER perhaps that kind of campy fun was very much the order of the day, but in the age of LIVE AND LET DIE "nasty" cop thrillers like DIRTY HARRY and THE FRENCH CONNECTION were dominating the action genre and spawning copy-cats (e.g. MCQ) and nasty, "dark" films like THE EXORCIST were ringing Box Office bells loudly. Not that I think there was anything wrong with the lighter approach taken during the Moore era (far from it) but the idea it was necessary because of the times in never one that has sat well with me.

I would make strong case for Moore possessing a harder edge in his first two films, particularly evident in GUN. I would say yes, it was in part a response to the grisly, early 70s thrillers, ruling the box office at the time.

[blueman]

Moore had the ability to be Fleming-like, but the times were against him.

Not really; by the time of MOONRAKER perhaps that kind of campy fun was very much the order of the day, but in the age of LIVE AND LET DIE "nasty" cop thrillers like DIRTY HARRY and THE FRENCH CONNECTION were dominating the action genre and spawning copy-cats (e.g. MCQ) and nasty, "dark" films like THE EXORCIST were ringing Box Office bells loudly. Not that I think there was anything wrong with the lighter approach taken during the Moore era (far from it) but the idea it was necessary because of the times in never one that has sat well with me.

I would make strong case for Moore possessing a harder edge in his first two films, particularly evident in GUN. I would say yes, it was in part a response to the grisly, early 70s thrillers, ruling the box office at the time.

Good points, agree that gritty was an option for EON in the early 70s that they shied away from, wisely or unwisely.

OHMSS's more serious tone was, right or wrong, something I think the producers felt was a cause of its poor (relative) showing at the box office. Bringing back both Connery and Hamilton for DAF and introducing crowd-pleasing camp into Bond to a degree not seen previously, and enjoying the resulting BO success, set a template for the next couple films. Even going back to EON's beginnings, DN and FRWL both added non-thriller, lighter moments that balanced nicely with the retained darker Fleming material. EON figured they misplayed the balance with OHMSS, and kneejerked the other direction with DAF, and BO told them which way to go. There's also not a lot of DIRTY HARRY or THE FRENCH CONNECTION or THE EXORCIST in 60s Bond, EON was always more interested in making a family entertainment and smoothing those harder Fleming edges. Maybe they didn't have to embrace that lighter side of Moore in the 70s, but if fit better for them, also with audiences (going off BO).

Man, I'd have loved to have seen a darker, revenge-driven thriller in '71, like OHMSS without the love story (or the added one-liners). And yes, I think it could've done good business at the BO. Harry and Cubby just weren't the guys to go that direction with Bond (and they may have had some pressure from their studio partner at that point to safely put butts in seats). Can't argue the success of films like TSWLM or MR, but those are so stripped of anything Bond for me as to be from a different spy movie series: largely going through the motions shouldn't be Bond. For better or worse, Moore's lighter touch (and Connery's in DAF) proved to be excellent counter-programming for those gritty 70s thrillers at the BO (less the darker TMWTGG).

The series has always been about the veneer of Bond more than Bond himself, OHMSS and QOS seem to me to fight against that the most, and pretty successfully too (IMHO). DN and FRWL have their moments too, the cinematic Bond was still forming, but the subtle difference between embracing the non-Fleming and purposely distancing from it is apparent to my eyes (no surprise those are my top 4 Bond films, eh? ). Anyway, more thoughts.

[Stephen Spotswood]

I still say they need to get this guy:

[captnash2]

realised i don't like the heavy emphasis placed on craig's bond role as an assassin, probably the porducers/writers attempt to match damon's bourne.
fleming's bond was ambivilant and a little self disgusted with that aspect of being a 00, showing a willingness to kill only when necessary.

i liked it better when he was a trouble shooter in the novels and films rather than just a killer.

Edited by captnash2, 19 April 2010 - 02:44 PM.

[captnash2]

interesting bit about fleming and dalton's bond at-

http://www.hmss.com/films/memory/

does craig measure up?

[Germanlady]

interesting bit about fleming and dalton's bond at-

http://www.hmss.com/films/memory/

does craig measure up?

I just rewatched LTK and must say, this resembles a bit QOS, which was mostly dark and lacking a bit the charme of CR. But CR was better in capturing both - the dark side of Bond as well as his charming one - so IMO he not only measures up but surpasses Dalton or maybe it was just the better script