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How dated is LICENCE TO KILL?


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#1 Righty007

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:17 PM

Licence to Kill is only 20 years old (only 4 months older than myself) so I don't typically consider it an "old" Bond film but as I was watching it the other day, a few things caught my attention as being really outdated:
1. "He's been there all day. He's planning a party for some Orientals tomorrow night." - Lupe Lamora

The term "Oriental(s)" is used a few times to describe the Asian drug dealers. Nobody uses this term anymore and I've certainly never heard it used to describe Asians in my lifetime. I looked up the term in the dictionary and it says "dated, often offensive."

So my question is: Was this term acceptable in 1989 or can its use be chalked up to the fact that Dick Maibaum was 79 years old when he wrote the script?
2. "Now, would that be smoking or nonsmoking, Mr..." - Pan Am Employee

This line never struck me as odd during previous viewings but the other day, I was like: They still allowed smoking on airplanes in 1989!?

I did a little research and found out that on April 23, 1988, a law went into effect in the United States that banned smoking on "any flight scheduled for two hours or less even if delays cause it to take longer" (source). Another source indicated that "later on, international flights departing from the U.S. were also included" in the smoking ban. Since Bond was flying to Istanbul we have to assume that the international flights ban had not yet gone into effect or that the scene was filmed before the ban.
3. Felix Leiter's huge CD-ROM drive isn't really a surprise to me but it's another thing that certainly dates the film.
Does anybody have anything else to add to the list?

#2 DamnCoffee

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:25 PM

The only thing that makes the movie remotely dated is the soundtrack. It's too 80's. Not that it's a bad thing. The soundtrack may be bad, but there's some good themes in there.

#3 zencat

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 11:34 PM

A lot of LTK felt dated even in 1989. "Orientals" sounded weird even then.

But I do recall the CD-ROM drive looking quite modern, even futuristic. I guess these were in use in the UK by 89, but in the US we were still using floppies, by in large.

#4 [dark]

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:02 AM

It's odd that Licence to Kill has aged like a loaf of bread while The Living Daylights has largely held up pretty well (Mujahedin alliance aside).

#5 DamnCoffee

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:05 AM

I personally find The Living Daylights a lot more dated than Licence to Kill. Daylights was a contemporary Bond film, it was a little ahead of it's time. Licence to Kill was a totally different Bond film, more violent and didn't rely on technology much. Probably why I find the latter more modern.

It's more low key, hence the lack of gadgets. There really isn't anything to date it in the slightest, visually anyway.

#6 Turn

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 02:45 AM

A couple of other examples come to mind:

-A crooked televangelist seeking donations for elicit purposes and seducing young followers. Back in the late '80s the Jim Baker PTL scandal was big news.

-Sanchez is modeled after Manuel Noriega, a Latin American drug traffiker of large cartel, money launderer and dictator who was wanted at the time LTK was being filmed, released. He was wanted by the U.S. and had a puppet president and had the nickname "Pineapple Face" by enemies. Robert Davi's complexion is similar.

-One other small note: one of the truck drivers is playing a version of "La Bamba" as he's driving. The film "LaBamba" and a cover version of the song were big in the late '80s.

#7 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 03:00 AM

He's been there all day. He's planning a party for some Orientals tomorrow night." - Lupe Lamora

That was Lupe Lamora talking...a kept women who gets beat up regularly by her macho but yet appealing(He's rich and powerful and doesn't suffer fools glady, hence he gets lots of chics and would in 2010 as well) lover...not exactly the model of the progressive woman but...more realistic. PC didn't Latin America in 1989. I have no problem with this line...and I don't think she meant it as derogertory becasue she had no idea it was offensive to some people(who need an extra layer of skin).

#8 jaguar007

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:55 AM

It's odd that Licence to Kill has aged like a loaf of bread while The Living Daylights has largely held up pretty well (Mujahedin alliance aside).


I agree. I think TLD has a bit more epic film like feel to it that holds up well, while LTK is lit like a made for TV movie.

He's been there all day. He's planning a party for some Orientals tomorrow night." - Lupe Lamora

That was Lupe Lamora talking...a kept women who gets beat up regularly by her macho but yet appealing(He's rich and powerful and doesn't suffer fools glady, hence he gets lots of chics and would in 2010 as well) lover...not exactly the model of the progressive woman but...more realistic. PC didn't Latin America in 1989. I have no problem with this line...and I don't think she meant it as derogertory becasue she had no idea it was offensive to some people(who need an extra layer of skin).


I was actually going to post something very similar, I agree.

#9 DR76

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 05:11 AM

How dated is LICENSE TO KILL? Just as dated as many other James Bond movies. Why is this movie being pointed out as dated?

#10 00Twelve

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 05:57 AM

As my brother has had to point out to my mom before, "A rug is Oriental. A person is Asian."

Yeah, LTK was definitely attempting to follow the overwhelmingly popular trends set by the likes of LETHAL WEAPON and DIE HARD. I don't think that can really be disputed; a Michael Kamen score, appearances by Robert Davi and Grand L. Bush, (comparatively) graphic deaths, American predominance, etc. testify strongly on behalf of this fact.

Problem is, that's never been the kind of action movie that Bond has been. Thus, in a 20 year hindsight, it looks quite obviously like a trend follower that looks more than a little impotent next to the trendsetting pictures that preceded it. Reasons for this range from the R rating that would never be permitted to the fact that Bond is a spy franchise, not a cop franchise.

Risking a digression, I will say that it's not uncommon for the Bonds to adapt to the trends of the day. It's been going on since FRWL took heavy inspiration from NORTH BY NORTHWEST, continuing with LALD and the Blaxploitation era, then MOONRAKER after STAR WARS, and has gone on to our day with CR and now QOS taking inspiration from the action choreography of the Bourne trilogy. LTK stands out rather more obviously to me, possibly just because I grew up watching LETHAL WEAPON and DIE HARD all the time.

LTK's got its good points; most of them being shared among Dalton, Davi, and Hedison(IMO).

#11 Onyx2626

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 09:11 AM

LTK plays to Dalton's strengths. It's a close fight, but this aspect wins out and gives the film it's legs. Like CR, it's plot is character driven.

(I had to get that out)


Only two things date this film for me: It's the last time you see 007 smoke & that melodramatic slow motion shot of Rafer and the guys charging across the runway. I just can't get into that shot.

And I loved Miami Vice!

The Oriental line and the airline smoking and all that is a good observation, but it wasn't so strange back then.



Note - The bow to the still being debated condition of PC was actually in TLD. All the talk was of Bond's newfound monogamy, due to all of us being terrified of you know what.

#12 Safari Suit

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 09:30 AM

I personally find The Living Daylights a lot more dated than Licence to Kill.


I think the score is certainly a lot more dated. Kamen's LTK score may be too redolent of several popular 80s movies that he also scored, but it isn't as clearly date-stamped as the drum machine claps and so forth of TLD.

-A crooked televangelist seeking donations for elicit purposes and seducing young followers. Back in the late '80s the Jim Baker PTL scandal was big news.


The same year's Flecth Lives also took inspiration from the PTL scandal. Maybe the Fletch producers were pissed the Bond series had stolen the villain from their first movie and wanted to jump the gun over LTK on the televangelist thing?

As it happens Miami Vice also took inspiration from PTL once or twice, including an episode with Brian Dennehy as a televangelist.

#13 Loomis

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 12:53 PM

Can anyone here explain why the word "oriental" is unacceptable? I'm not saying that it isn't, but I'd like to know why it's considered offensive. I know that it's an archaic term, and consequently it's one that I've never used in conversation (just as I've never spoken of "the occident"), but that's not necessarily the same as being pejorative or offensive. Britain is surely one of the more PC societies on earth, but when I went to university in London the college I attended was called the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), and it continues to trade under that name.

(I gather that Americans tend to use "Asian" to refer to people from China, Japan, Korea, etc., whereas if Brits talk about someone who's "Asian" they usually mean a person from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh or that neck of the woods.)

An element in LTK that strikes me as somewhat strange is that Sanchez and co. welcome the Hong Kong drug squad agents in Japanese. Although that may have been deliberate to show the villains' ignorance of matters Orien----, I mean Asian.

#14 DamnCoffee

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:13 PM

Was this term acceptable in 1989 or can its use be chalked up to the fact that Dick Maibaum was 79 years old when he wrote the script?


Probably, which was why it made it into the movie. If anyone considered it that offensive, it would've been cut out.

#15 O.H.M.S.S.

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 01:44 PM

Ok, some things changed since 1989, but I don't consider it to be dated. I would say term is not important anyway. Of course films become dated after a while, but who cares? It's not a negative aspect in my opinion, it's just how things go.

#16 tdalton

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 03:46 PM

Of course LTK is dated. All of the films are dated, even CR and QoS.

#17 Professor Dent

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:10 PM

2. "Now, would that be smoking or nonsmoking, Mr..." - Pan Am Employee

This line never struck me as odd during previous viewings but the other day, I was like: They still allowed smoking on airplanes in 1989!?

I did a little research and found out that on April 23, 1988, a law went into effect in the United States that banned smoking on "any flight scheduled for two hours or less even if delays cause it to take longer" (source). Another source indicated that "later on, international flights departing from the U.S. were also included" in the smoking ban. Since Bond was flying to Istanbul we have to assume that the international flights ban had not yet gone into effect or that the scene was filmed before the ban.

It wasn't until the mid to late 80's that a lot of the non-smoking bans started going into effect. Second hand smoke wasn't really considered dangerous prior to this. B)

3. Felix Leiter's huge CD-ROM drive isn't really a surprise to me but it's another thing that certainly dates the film.

This always happens. What is high tech today looks like it is something from the stone ages a decade later if not sooner. Just look at cell phones in movies from five years ago versus today. In 2005, an iPhone would a fantasy device when compared to the popular Motorola Razr. At the time of Licence to Kill, a lot of computers were still using 5 & 1/4" floppy disks. The newest machines had moved to 3.5" floppy disks so a CD-ROM drive in someones house was very high tech. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how we even survived those days. :tdown:

#18 Righty007

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:18 PM

He's been there all day. He's planning a party for some Orientals tomorrow night." - Lupe Lamora

That was Lupe Lamora talking...a kept women who gets beat up regularly by her macho but yet appealing(He's rich and powerful and doesn't suffer fools glady, hence he gets lots of chics and would in 2010 as well) lover...not exactly the model of the progressive woman but...more realistic. PC didn't Latin America in 1989. I have no problem with this line...and I don't think she meant it as derogertory becasue she had no idea it was offensive to some people(who need an extra layer of skin).

Lupe was not the only character to use the term...

"We have a deal with the Orientals. We've got their money!" - Truman Lodge

#19 Righty007

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:33 PM

Britain is surely one of the more PC societies on earth, but when I went to university in London the college I attended was called the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), and it continues to trade under that name.

I personally don't know why the term is considered offensive to some. I just know it's not an acceptable term these days.

I'm not surprised the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) has never changed its name. For example, the term "colored people" is considered offensive yet it's still in the name of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). Many organizations don't change/update their names due to tradition.

#20 Turn

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 04:38 PM

As my brother has had to point out to my mom before, "A rug is Oriental. A person is Asian."

Yeah, LTK was definitely attempting to follow the overwhelmingly popular trends set by the likes of LETHAL WEAPON and DIE HARD. I don't think that can really be disputed; a Michael Kamen score, appearances by Robert Davi and Grand L. Bush, (comparatively) graphic deaths, American predominance, etc. testify strongly on behalf of this fact.

Problem is, that's never been the kind of action movie that Bond has been. Thus, in a 20 year hindsight, it looks quite obviously like a trend follower that looks more than a little impotent next to the trendsetting pictures that preceded it. Reasons for this range from the R rating that would never be permitted to the fact that Bond is a spy franchise, not a cop franchise.

Risking a digression, I will say that it's not uncommon for the Bonds to adapt to the trends of the day. It's been going on since FRWL took heavy inspiration from NORTH BY NORTHWEST, continuing with LALD and the Blaxploitation era, then MOONRAKER after STAR WARS, and has gone on to our day with CR and now QOS taking inspiration from the action choreography of the Bourne trilogy. LTK stands out rather more obviously to me, possibly just because I grew up watching LETHAL WEAPON and DIE HARD all the time.

LTK's got its good points; most of them being shared among Dalton, Davi, and Hedison(IMO).

Good post. I think the overused comparison of the Craig era to the Bourne films should take a look at the previous examples and consider it isn't necessarily new in this series.

#21 PrinceKamalKhan

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 06:52 PM

Of course LTK is dated. All of the films are dated, even CR and QoS.


Exactly, tdalton. For me, their datedness is part of their charm although I think I would prefer to use the term historical time capsule or period pieces. LTK is clearly set in the Miami Vice/Lethal Weapon/war on drugs era just as GE is set in the wake of the later breakup of the USSR. And TMWTGG dealing with the mid-1970s energy crisis, another time capsule. My favorite historical time capsule plot device is General Orlov's scheme in OP to disarm Western Europe and to lead Soviet armies in WWIII victory from the height of the early 1980s Cold War era.

#22 00Twelve

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 08:35 PM

Good post. I think the overused comparison of the Craig era to the Bourne films should take a look at the previous examples and consider it isn't necessarily new in this series.

Thanks, Turn. And yes, it's a weak criticism for sure.

#23 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 08:39 PM

Was this term acceptable in 1989 or can its use be chalked up to the fact that Dick Maibaum was 79 years old when he wrote the script?


Probably, which was why it made it into the movie. If anyone considered it that offensive, it would've been cut out.

There were two writers to LTK though, and this movie was not the usual collaborative affair between the two.

However, I don't consider LTK an old Bond movie either - I think it stands up well.
Had the deleted scene in the hotel room not been cut, then the portable TV in Bond's hotel room would be another throwback to '89. Seeing Sanchez on that TV would have dated the film quite a bit for me.
I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.

#24 The Shark

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 08:46 PM

I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.


Why? Despite it being less common-place, people still smoke. And I'm sure Bond would, particularly Craig's Bond. Seeing he doesn't seem like the type of man to care about health risks, and would need cigarettes to relieve stress.

#25 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 09:30 PM

I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.


Why? Despite it being less common-place, people still smoke. And I'm sure Bond would, particularly Craig's Bond. Seeing he doesn't seem like the type of man to care about health risks, and would need cigarettes to relieve stress.

It fits Bond character wise, that I agree. I think its the world we live in now though, with the dumbing down of tobacco advertising and such like. It's probably enough to make film makers think twice about such things, whereas twenty years ago they may not have done. Forward six years from LTK and there was a big (almost publicity) thing about Bond not smoking, interviews from Campbell about it if I remember correctly. Then we had the 'filthy habit' line in TND two years later.

#26 Colossus

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 09:51 PM

Some movies just date better than others no matter what year they were made in. Licence to Kill's fashion sense does look especially dated, the 80s really were a tough time to get through with some dignity fashion-wise lol, if they took place in contemporary times.

#27 jaguar007

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:02 PM

I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.


Why? Despite it being less common-place, people still smoke. And I'm sure Bond would, particularly Craig's Bond. Seeing he doesn't seem like the type of man to care about health risks, and would need cigarettes to relieve stress.

It fits Bond character wise, that I agree. I think its the world we live in now though, with the dumbing down of tobacco advertising and such like. It's probably enough to make film makers think twice about such things, whereas twenty years ago they may not have done. Forward six years from LTK and there was a big (almost publicity) thing about Bond not smoking, interviews from Campbell about it if I remember correctly. Then we had the 'filthy habit' line in TND two years later.


Remember, LTK's end credits did display the surgeon general warning on smoking.

#28 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:10 PM

I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.


Why? Despite it being less common-place, people still smoke. And I'm sure Bond would, particularly Craig's Bond. Seeing he doesn't seem like the type of man to care about health risks, and would need cigarettes to relieve stress.

It fits Bond character wise, that I agree. I think its the world we live in now though, with the dumbing down of tobacco advertising and such like. It's probably enough to make film makers think twice about such things, whereas twenty years ago they may not have done. Forward six years from LTK and there was a big (almost publicity) thing about Bond not smoking, interviews from Campbell about it if I remember correctly. Then we had the 'filthy habit' line in TND two years later.


Remember, LTK's end credits did display the surgeon general warning on smoking.

Yeah, I remember that. But that in itself may be an indication perspectives were changing about smoking on film, even back then.

#29 The Shark

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Posted 23 January 2010 - 10:43 PM

I doubt we will see explosives hidden in cigarette packets anymore either.


Why? Despite it being less common-place, people still smoke. And I'm sure Bond would, particularly Craig's Bond. Seeing he doesn't seem like the type of man to care about health risks, and would need cigarettes to relieve stress.

It fits Bond character wise, that I agree. I think its the world we live in now though, with the dumbing down of tobacco advertising and such like. It's probably enough to make film makers think twice about such things, whereas twenty years ago they may not have done. Forward six years from LTK and there was a big (almost publicity) thing about Bond not smoking, interviews from Campbell about it if I remember correctly. Then we had the 'filthy habit' line in TND two years later.


Agreed, and then smoking returned briefly with DAD.

I still think if the producers are brave enough (which I doubt, since they won't seem to let go of the cheap and expendable P&W and Arnold) they can return to that, along with Benzedrine tinged vintage champagne.

Perhaps they could display that general warning again? This time including killing people, unprotected sex, drug use, dangerous driving, and use of alchohol.

#30 Publius

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 03:41 AM

I personally find The Living Daylights a lot more dated than Licence to Kill. Daylights was a contemporary Bond film, it was a little ahead of it's time. Licence to Kill was a totally different Bond film, more violent and didn't rely on technology much. Probably why I find the latter more modern.

It's more low key, hence the lack of gadgets. There really isn't anything to date it in the slightest, visually anyway.

I completely agree, and actually I consider LTK to have aged better than most Bond films, all things considered. The 60s Bonds glorified a level of machismo that seems totally alien nowadays (even if attitudes about gender roles still aren't much different in practice), while most of the 70s and 80s Bonds placed such a premium on wackiness and spectacle that they were destined to age quickly.

LTK escaped respectably unscathed by focusing on the character of Bond and how his sheer willpower could impose some measure of justice on the world. The only glaring exception to me is when Q shows up to display a bunch of tacky wannabe gadgets.

He's been there all day. He's planning a party for some Orientals tomorrow night." - Lupe Lamora

That was Lupe Lamora talking...a kept women who gets beat up regularly by her macho but yet appealing(He's rich and powerful and doesn't suffer fools glady, hence he gets lots of chics and would in 2010 as well) lover...not exactly the model of the progressive woman but...more realistic. PC didn't Latin America in 1989. I have no problem with this line...and I don't think she meant it as derogertory becasue she had no idea it was offensive to some people(who need an extra layer of skin).

I was about to post the exact same thing. This was a girl who blamed herself for being whipped.

And as for Truman Lodge, he spoke as many a money-grubbing businessman speaks even today, especially in private conversation (or in the middle of a fire).

But count me as one of those who's always been confused by why a term literally meaning "from the east" is intrinsically offensive, whereas calling an American a "Westerner" isn't. It has nothing to do with physical appearance, as other racial terminology does, and is simply based on geography -- presuming you consider the "center" to be somewhere between Europe and Asia, and maybe therein lies the offense?