26 replies to this topic

[Sark2.0]

I love CR, but the poker scenes are pretty awful for the most part. I'm talking about the poker itself. Movies and TV always seem to fall into this trap when doing poker. So here's some things about the poker scenes that have come to bother me more as I've gotten more into poker:

Le Chiffre boat poker scene:
Le Chiffre correctly (apparently) guesses that his opponent has a straight draw, which means he has a 20%~ of making his hand on the river. Wouldn't Le Chiffre want him to call the allin bet since he's an 80% favorite? That makes his comment about having two pair just pointless showing off that probably cost him money.
(edit: unless of course le Chiffre was bluffing. I'm actually pretty embarrassed that I just realized that people sometimes lie about their hands )

Bahamas poker scene:
Overall pretty good, no real complaints. The stakes don't get high enough to warrant betting an Aston Martin in more than a handful of places (this is the biggest game in Vegas, for example) but it's not that big a deal when compared to the rest of the poker scenes.

Montenegro scenes:
Bond claiming to find Le Chiffre's "tell" (also when Bond tells Vesper everyone has a tell). This is the most common fallacy of film/TV when it comes to poker. The fact is, 'tells' are a very, very small part of poker. And the idea that someone as allegedly good as Le Chiffre would have one as obvious as a twitch whenever he bluffs is almost comical.

Le Chiffre's comment "you must of thought I was bluffing". the board was JKAJK. Bond has AK giving him KKKAA, while Le Chiffre has JJ, giving him JJJJA. I don't think anyone in the world would blame Bond for calling. Also, Le Chiffre slowrolled Bond. This made me hate him more than trying to blow up the airliner, because it's one of the biggest dick moves in poker. So that fits his character, actually.

The last hand. Jesus. Bond might as well have played baccarat, because this hand was pure luck. To refresh your memory, one player had a flush, two has full houses, and Bond has a straight flush. So yeah, he basically just won the lottery with that hand. Congratulations Bond, you lucky bastard. It would have been a lot better if he had defeated Le Chiffre heads up through better play than juts getting obscenely lucky.

For the record, I love CR. Those scenes as just a little LOL-worthy for anyone who is seriously into poker.

Edited by Sark2.0, 04 January 2010 - 06:39 PM.

[Tarl_Cabot]

I love CR, but the poker scenes are pretty awful for the most part. I'm talking about the poker itself. Movies and TV always seem to fall into this trap when doing poker. So here's some things about the poker scenes that have come to bother me more as I've gotten more into poker:

Le Chiffre boat poker scene:
Le Chiffre correctly (apparently) guesses that his opponent has a straight draw, which means he has a 20%~ of making his hand on the river. Wouldn't Le Chiffre want him to call the allin bet since he's an 80% favorite? That makes his comment about having two pair just pointless showing off that probably cost him money.

I play a lil poker as a hobby and have some live play experience in Vegas so I'll tackle your thread if you don't mind.

If the other player has a 20% to hit the straight, that doesn't necessarily mean Le Chifre has an 80% advantage to win the hand if played out since there are other variables and purmutations to consider so Le chifre was correct to bet huge on the turn to discourage his opponent to chase his straight. I never assumed Le Chifre had him beat-two pair can lose to trips.

Bahamas poker scene:
Overall pretty good, no real complaints. The stakes get high enough to warrant betting an Aston Martin in more than a handful of places (this is the biggest game in Vegas, for example) but it's not that big a deal when compared to the rest of the poker scenes.

I played that exact hand scenario at the Mirage over thanksgiving. I've had poor results with AA lately-I either lose to weaker hands or get no action so I limped in with AA preflop, which is not by the book play, and I got a nice board: AK8. My opponent had KK and so I made a raise on the flop: 3 X BB and he called. I then checked him down all the way until he raised on the river I and I re-raised(dick move™ ). He went all in and I called...he had no Idea I had the nuts because of my preflop decision which paid off...anyway, I didn't get a classic sports car out of it but it was fun.

Montenegro scenes:
Bond claiming to find Le Chiffre's "tell" (also when Bond tells Vesper everyone has a tell). This is the most common fallacy of film/TV when it comes to poker. The fact is, 'tells' are a very, very small part of poker. And the idea that someone as allegedly good as Le Chiffre would have one as obvious as a twitch whenever he bluffs is almost comical.

Le Chifre planted the "tell" in Bond's mind...it was a nice inside baseball move...granted,but one that doesn't happen in real poker. Again, just a movie. Rounders isn't much better is it? The oreo cookie thing?



Le Chiffre's comment "you must of thought I was bluffing". the board was JKAJK. Bond has AK giving him KKKAA, while Le Chiffre has JJ, giving him JJJJA. I don't think anyone in the world would blame Bond for calling. Also, Le Chiffre slowrolled Bond. This made me hate him more than trying to blow up the airliner, because it's one of the biggest dick moves in poker. So that fits his character, actually.

Poker is all about "dick moves", as long as you're not dick at the table all is fiar. I hate poeple who complain about slow plays or check-raises. The object of the game is to get paid off. Now slow rolling is not something I'd do but it part of the big mind game at work. Besides, Bond is his nemesis away from the table too.


The last hand. Jesus. Bond might as well have played baccarat, because this hand was pure luck. To refresh your memory, one player had a flush, two has full houses, and Bond has a straight flush. So yeah, he basically just won the lottery with that hand. Congratulations Bond, you lucky bastard. It would have been a lot better if he had defeated Le Chiffre heads up through better play than juts getting obscenely lucky.

At least Bond didn't win with a Royal spade flush-now that would have been unimaginative.



For the record, I love CR. Those scenes as just a little LOL-worthy for anyone who is seriously into poker.

I love it too. I think they made the game entertaining to watch which is a challenge because most people would rather see Bond in a ski-car-boat chase...etc.

[Cilogy]

Your last line is exactly the point. If this were a poker movie it would involve more strategic play. Since it is a Bond audience, and thus a more varied audience, then the poker would have to be a little easier to understand and therefore more luck oriented.

Essentially, its a movie.

[Judo chop]

My opinion is completely personalized, as would be expected. I understand poker basics, but I’m not a hound and I find ZERO enjoyment in merely watching others play, which is what CASINO ROYALE’s poker scenes would amount to if certain liberties hadn’t been taken.

So, only one thing about CR’s presentation offends me and my Poker 101 education, and that is the multiple lightning bolts which all strike simultaneously in that final hand. To me, the moment is unnatural and clearly the product of forced writing. There was no need for such incredible hands, all laid out in progressively increasing incredibleness no less. I’d like to have seen Bond with a full house to beat LeChiffre’s flush (as an example of something impressive, but more realistic), and I’d also like to have seen just one other fella still in the game, and to seem him begrudgingly, but logically, call with a pair of Aces or trip 3’s or such; he’d figure these two guys are caught up in bluffing each other, are feeling confident with all their winnings and are simply too stubborn to back off. It wouldn’t have hurt at all to give this third character a little fleshing out; perhaps included within a comment between him and another player at the bar as they discuss the intense bravado and other strange goings on they’ve witnessed between LeChiffre and Bond at the table.

Nothing else Sark notes really bothers me. The idea that LeChiffre would sacrifice an extra dose of cash in order to prematurely gloat over his (likely) defeated opponent doesn’t bother me. It’s a character moment rather than a poker moment; that kind of satisfaction is probably worth more to LeChiffre than the extra money he’d have bled from the loser.

And I wonder if “tells” are as important to cinematic poker as “drama” is important to cinematic courtroom trial scenes. Neither really exist in real life to the degree they tend to exist in film, but then the real life versions are insanely boring to watch to all but a few well-studied select.

[Sark2.0]

Like I said, this is a relatively minor quibble on my part. Frankly, I can't think of a movie that really got poker right entirely (Rounders included), so I can't blame the Bond filmmakers. After all, if I don't expect an accurate portrayal of an officer of MI6 what business do I have expecting an accurate portrayal of poker?

[Trident]

Like I said, this is a relatively minor quibble on my part. Frankly, I can't think of a movie that really got poker right entirely (Rounders included), so I can't blame the Bond filmmakers. After all, if I don't expect an accurate portrayal of an officer of MI6 what business do I have expecting an accurate portrayal of poker?

Very well put!

[bondrules]

I love CR, but the poker scenes are pretty awful for the most part. I'm talking about the poker itself. Movies and TV always seem to fall into this trap when doing poker. So here's some things about the poker scenes that have come to bother me more as I've gotten more into poker:

Le Chiffre boat poker scene:
Le Chiffre correctly (apparently) guesses that his opponent has a straight draw, which means he has a 20%~ of making his hand on the river. Wouldn't Le Chiffre want him to call the allin bet since he's an 80% favorite? That makes his comment about having two pair just pointless showing off that probably cost him money.
(edit: unless of course le Chiffre was bluffing. I'm actually pretty embarrassed that I just realized that people sometimes lie about their hands )

Bahamas poker scene:
Overall pretty good, no real complaints. The stakes don't get high enough to warrant betting an Aston Martin in more than a handful of places (this is the biggest game in Vegas, for example) but it's not that big a deal when compared to the rest of the poker scenes.

Montenegro scenes:
Bond claiming to find Le Chiffre's "tell" (also when Bond tells Vesper everyone has a tell). This is the most common fallacy of film/TV when it comes to poker. The fact is, 'tells' are a very, very small part of poker. And the idea that someone as allegedly good as Le Chiffre would have one as obvious as a twitch whenever he bluffs is almost comical.

Le Chiffre's comment "you must of thought I was bluffing". the board was JKAJK. Bond has AK giving him KKKAA, while Le Chiffre has JJ, giving him JJJJA. I don't think anyone in the world would blame Bond for calling. Also, Le Chiffre slowrolled Bond. This made me hate him more than trying to blow up the airliner, because it's one of the biggest dick moves in poker. So that fits his character, actually.

The last hand. Jesus. Bond might as well have played baccarat, because this hand was pure luck. To refresh your memory, one player had a flush, two has full houses, and Bond has a straight flush. So yeah, he basically just won the lottery with that hand. Congratulations Bond, you lucky bastard. It would have been a lot better if he had defeated Le Chiffre heads up through better play than juts getting obscenely lucky.

For the record, I love CR. Those scenes as just a little LOL-worthy for anyone who is seriously into poker.

I'm glad I don't know much about cards, cause for me, especially the Montenegro card game, is pure tension! Much better than watching the typical dumb car chase.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

Of course it isn't a realistic poker scene, but it's a Bond movie (what about Bond skiing on one ski in OHMSS). Perfect example of willing suspension of disbelief, I'd say.

[Sark2.0]

Of course it isn't a realistic poker scene, but it's a Bond movie (what about Bond skiing on one ski in OHMSS). Perfect example of willing suspension of disbelief, I'd say.

Since I don't know much about skiing I'm less likely to say laugh and say, "yeah, right!" in that scene.

[Judo chop]

Of course it isn't a realistic poker scene, but it's a Bond movie (what about Bond skiing on one ski in OHMSS). Perfect example of willing suspension of disbelief, I'd say.

Since I don't know much about skiing I'm less likely to say laugh and say, "yeah, right!" in that scene.

I don’t think it’s a fair comparison. Bond skiing on one ski is an exaggeration of Bond’s physical skill whereas the poker game is an exaggeration of statistical probabilities which should apply to everyone, the superhuman and otherwise.

The final hand in CR is more like Bond spilling a box of toothpicks on the ground and seeing the little twigs fall in such a way that they spell out the final vital clue which leads Bond to Blofeld’s hideout.

Or, like certain parts of MOONRAKER.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

Or, like certain parts of MOONRAKER.

[JimmyBond]

This thread is ridiculous, I almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a straight flush. Getting them is like getting candy, it always happens!

[Safari Suit]

Is that joke ^ funny? My knowledge of poker is such that I have no idea. Yet I still managed to win a game once.

[Sark2.0]

If it's not a joke I want to invest in JimmyBond's poker playing!

[Mr_Wint]

I think it was idiotic to go with Poker instead of Baccarat.

[bondrules]

I think it was idiotic to go with Poker instead of Baccarat.

How about "War"?

[O.H.M.S.S.]

I think it was idiotic to go with Poker instead of Baccarat.

I love poker, as I adore to play it, but wouldn't have mind baccarat, which is also quite amusing.

[Trident]

I'm not exactly sure at the moment but didn't Fleming mention Bond playing Poker in one of the novels too?

[Revelator]

Baccarat is a very easy game to explain (less than two minutes of screentime would have sufficed, of Bond showing Vesper the ropes and deepening his relationship with her in the process) and an easier game to follow on screen than poker. In other words, I think it's more cinematic and would have been the better choice. I was disappointed that the filmmakers chose to piggyback on an existing craze instead of helping to inspire one.

[Sark2.0]

I think it was idiotic to go with Poker instead of Baccarat.

Considering the amount of skillful play that was highlighted in CR, they might as well have gone with baccarat.

How about "War"?

They're basically the same thing (which I think is your point).

[JimmyBond]

This thread is ridiculous, I almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a straight flush. Getting them is like getting candy, it always happens!

Yes folks, this is a joke. And I couldnt even get it right, I meant to say Royal Flush but I screwed it up.

[Judo chop]

This thread is ridiculous, I almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a straight flush. Getting them is like getting candy, it always happens!

Yes folks, this is a joke. And I couldnt even get it right, I meant to say Royal Flush but I screwed it up.

I admit, even with the clarification I’m still a little confused by the first statement; you almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a Royal Flush? Heavens! When have you ever LOST to a straight with a Royal Flush?!

Rule #1: Never play cards in an army barracks against a guy named Ox.

[Sark2.0]

This thread is ridiculous, I almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a straight flush. Getting them is like getting candy, it always happens!

Yes folks, this is a joke. And I couldnt even get it right, I meant to say Royal Flush but I screwed it up.

I admit, even with the clarification I’m still a little confused by the first statement; you almost always beat a straight (or a flush) with a Royal Flush? Heavens! When have you ever LOST to a straight with a Royal Flush?!

Rule #1: Never play cards in an army barracks against a guy named Ox.

No, the rule is never play cards with a man named Doc, never eat a place called Ma's and never sleep with a girl that's got more problems than you do.

[MajorB]

The one thing I just noticed a few weeks ago--and my memory could be fuzzy, so apologies if I have this wrong--is in the Bahamas game. Doesn't Bond have a shutout hand against Le Chiffre? That is, there's no hand that Le Chiffre could have beaten him with? And yet he lets Le Chiffre raise the stakes! Le Chiffre must have known Bond set him up--that would have made him extra furious. Now that's cutthroat card playing!

[DR76]

I couldn't give a rat's about the accuracy of the poker scenes. I liked them for the dramatic impact upon the story. That's it.

[Aris007]

I'm not exactly sure at the moment but didn't Fleming mention Bond playing Poker in one of the novels too?

Well Poker was getting very popular at that time, and it still does, that's why the producers chose it against Baccarat. They tried to make Bond more up-to-date.

As for the first time I watched the film I didn't get a thing from the Poker scenes. When they reached the "river" in Montenegro and Bond shodowned every went like "Yeah" and I said "What the bloody hell did the see and went like that?" I finally got to understand what happened there when I searched the Net for information about Poker and the scenes seem perfect right now. I'm glad they chose to go with Poker.

[sharpshooter]

The poker scenes are the best parts of the film. For me at least. My love of card games aside, I find them as suspenseful as the action scenes. And the winning hands don’t really bother me. This is a film and poetic licence can be applied. The world of Casino Royale is still a heightened one.