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What could have been...


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#121 The Ghost Who Walks

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 12:04 AM

While I like Pierce very much in the Bond role, I think all of the basic ideas for his films would've been even better suited for Dalton. They all tried to, in a subtle way, shake things up a little (Bond fights his former buddy/colleague, Bond meets a woman he fell in love with again, Bond falls in love with the villain, Bond is captured and tortured for around a year). Having Dalton in the part might have made these excellent ideas being executed a bit better, more seriously and less concerned with sticking to "the formula", akin to Licence to Kill.

And don't tell me Dalton would have been too old to be Bond in 2002 when DAD came out. B)


I don't know. With GE I have little doubt the whole film would have worked better with Dalton, even if the plot had been exactly the same (unlikely). But somehow the later films to me give a strong indication of being tailored more or less on Brosnan's Bond. They would still work with Dalton, but I don't have that same feeling of 'this should have been a Dalton film' I get when seeing GE.


I think the plots of TND and TWINE could have fit Dalton well. Both films have fine ideas and basic stories, they are just not executed all that well. In my head it sounds logical they would have been executed a bit better with Dalton in the lead. The fact that he was an, um, untraditional cinematic Bond could have made the films feel less bound down by "the magic formula" and the filmmakers might have been more willing to actually do something with their terrific ideas, rather than drown them in explosions and machine gun fire.

Just imagine TWINE with Dalton's Bond falling in love with Michelle Pfeiffer's Elektra (fanboy fantasy, please bear with me). It would no doubt have been a much darker film than they dared to make with Brosnan, and while I think Pierce is excellent in the final film, I'd imagine Dalton would have blown him out of the water.

I know this is completely pointless speculation, but heck, I really enjoy it. :tdown:

Slating Dalton was certainly Martin Campbell's modus operandi at the time.


Little did he know he'd go on to work with a Bond who owes a great deal to Dalton (same goes for Pierce, BTW, who tries to be quite Dalton-ish at times).

Yeah, I know. Die Another Day would not have happened the way it did with Dalton in the role. Makes the cut all that deeper...


What?! Can you really not imagine Dalton surfing a massive CGI wave?
(I'm sure he'd look as embarrased as Connery did while "disguised" as a Japanese fisherman in YOLT)

Edited by The Ghost Who Walks, 22 November 2009 - 12:09 AM.


#122 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 02:16 PM

What?! Can you really not imagine Dalton surfing a massive CGI wave?
(I'm sure he'd look as embarrased as Connery did while "disguised" as a Japanese fisherman in YOLT)


What I could imagine Dalton doing in DAD is saying "Stuff yer momma!" to Jinx and then leaving her to be hacked up by the lasers... B)

I think I can safely say that I speak for a great many people when observing that the wrong Bond girl got the knife at the end of that film...

#123 jaguar007

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 05:59 PM

I think I can safely say that I speak for a great many people when observing that the wrong Bond girl got the knife at the end of that film...

B)

#124 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 04:51 PM

I think I can safely say that I speak for a great many people when observing that the wrong Bond girl got the knife at the end of that film...

B)


Thanks! I really must say, of all the things that film got wrong (and there were LOTS, LOTS of things), one of the more criminal was squibbing the chance for Bond to face off with the person responsible for ratting him out to the Koreans in the PTS, which thereby lead to his capture and 14 months of torture, during which time she leaked classified information for which MI6 blamed Bond and thus removed him from duty.

For Bond not to have been the one to fight her, instead sending him to face Emperor Palpatine and his Force Lightning, is a prime example of why that thing called Die Another Day is the cruellest joke played on the Bond series in its nearly 50 year history.

#125 Trident

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:03 PM

I think I can safely say that I speak for a great many people when observing that the wrong Bond girl got the knife at the end of that film...

B)


Thanks! I really must say, of all the things that film got wrong (and there were LOTS, LOTS of things), one of the more criminal was squibbing the chance for Bond to face off with the person responsible for ratting him out to the Koreans in the PTS, which thereby lead to his capture and 14 months of torture, during which time she leaked classified information for which MI6 blamed Bond and thus removed him from duty.

For Bond not to have been the one to fight her, instead sending him to face Emperor Palpatine and his Force Lightning, is a prime example of why that thing called Die Another Day is the cruellest joke played on the Bond series in its nearly 50 year history.





The real cruelty in my view was that DAD would have had the chance to take up CR's plotline here with Frost falling for Bond and committing suicide in the end. That would have given the venture so much more depth.

Upside is of course that this opened up the door to do CR relatively close to the original. So I think we may have seen the better of two possibilities.

#126 Zorin Industries

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:08 PM

Thanks! I really must say, of all the things that film got wrong (and there were LOTS, LOTS of things), one of the more criminal was squibbing the chance for Bond to face off with the person responsible for ratting him out to the Koreans in the PTS, which thereby lead to his capture and 14 months of torture, during which time she leaked classified information for which MI6 blamed Bond and thus removed him from duty.

For Bond not to have been the one to fight her, instead sending him to face Emperor Palpatine and his Force Lightning, is a prime example of why that thing called Die Another Day is the cruellest joke played on the Bond series in its nearly 50 year history.


And spare us the opportunity to see two hot women fight each other to the death? I think not.

Gala may have ratted Bond out to the North Koreans, but it wasn't entirely her fault. She was confused; a somewhat sexually naive and innocent girl when she was discovered and turned by Verity (and in turn corrupted even further by Colonel Moon). She was somewhat of a minor player in the end; it was better for Bond to have a showdown with Colonel Moon/Gustav Graves than to beat up on a poor, innocent country girl like Gala Brand.

But the character was not called GALA BRAND and that idea was dropped very early for a couple of reasons - one being that MIRANDA FROST was NOT the character GALA BRAND.

I'm surprised you are not calling THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH by its working title (!).

However, I do agree with you about the FROST / VIXEN bitch fight. The greatest flaw about that fight was that it was better realised than the one next door which is a no-no for a Bond film. It is wrong that BOND's fight to the death is upstaged by anyone.

On other people's retiring BOND notion....there are great problems to overcome with the ageing protagonist idea.

One being that that very idea adds a finality to the series that Eon and others would not have wanted. In a studio delicate era such as the 1980's was to Bond, it would have been a massive gamble to go down the final mission route (even if a next Bond was done and dusted). Eon / Danjaq had every intention of continuing the series. Also, it makes the notion of introducing a new Bond very hard for the audience and others when the series would sort of acknowledge it had winded down in - for example - A VIEW TO A KILL had it had Moore very much so on a swansong mission. It could look like the series was trying to wring out a cash cow rather than organically freshen itself up and progress with Dalton.

#127 Trident

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:24 PM

And spare us the opportunity to see two hot women fight each other to the death? I think not.


Actually, tons of that to be found just a click away, doesn't really strike me as that fantastic Bond material nowadays.



Gala may have ratted Bond out to the North Koreans, but it wasn't entirely her fault...
... girl like Gala Brand.



Now isn't this taking things a little bit far? I mean, what are you going to call characters if one of the scribes one day confesses to originally have named a character Juicy Shagwell, Creamy Blowup or Bimbo Threeway-McCount?

#128 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 05:28 PM

The real cruelty in my view was that DAD would have had the chance to take up CR's plotline here with Frost falling for Bond and committing suicide in the end. That would have given the venture so much more depth.

Upside is of course that this opened up the door to do CR relatively close to the original. So I think we may have seen the better of two possibilities.


Well, there is a silver lining for every cloud...

Trident (and others), you are right about the 'ageing Bond' concept. The more pragmatic route (in terms of commercial success) is/was to proceed in the way that EON did with GoldenEye and the movies that followed it. Might not have made for as interesting a story, but at least the series is still with us, all the same.

Still, an 'ageing Dalton Bond'. Gives me an excuse to go off and write some fan-fiction...

#129 The Ghost Who Walks

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 07:11 PM

The real cruelty in my view was that DAD would have had the chance to take up CR's plotline here with Frost falling for Bond and committing suicide in the end. That would have given the venture so much more depth.

Upside is of course that this opened up the door to do CR relatively close to the original. So I think we may have seen the better of two possibilities.


Well, there is a silver lining for every cloud...

Trident (and others), you are right about the 'ageing Bond' concept. The more pragmatic route (in terms of commercial success) is/was to proceed in the way that EON did with GoldenEye and the movies that followed it. Might not have made for as interesting a story, but at least the series is still with us, all the same.

Still, an 'ageing Dalton Bond'. Gives me an excuse to go off and write some fan-fiction...


Just remember to give your old Dalton Bond a moustache.

#130 Turn

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 02:50 AM

It's a philosophy I picked up on after studying Bill Clinton for 8 years: 'It's not a lie if you believe it's true.' B)

Wasn't it the great '90s philosopher George Costanza who coined that phrase? :tdown:

#131 Major Tallon

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 03:16 AM

It's part of my attempt at altering my reality. In my parallel Bond universe, Brosnan's second Bond film was actually called TOMORROW NEVER LIES (the better title), OHMSS and YOLT have not been adapted for the screen yet, and Tanya Roberts was never born, thus could never have been in *FROM A VIEW TO A KILL*, which actually starred Simon McCorkindale because Roger Moore retired in 1983.

It's a philosophy I picked up on after studying Bill Clinton for 8 years: 'It's not a lie if you believe it's true.' B)

Alas, I can't see the point in persisting on calling characters and films by names that were considered and discarded. To use the example of TND, we'd have had a heroine named Sidney Winch, which I don't think works at all.

Were the same philosophy to be applied to Fleming's novels, we'd be discussing his books Mondays Are Hell, The Richest Man in the World, and The Belles From Hell, the latter featuring the heroine's father, whose name was Marc-Ange Stromboni (yep, that was his original name in the OHMSS manuscript). And all of us would be discussing these topics on Peregrine Carruthers Net.

It's better overall, I think, to accept the titles and character names from the actual films. It's fun to think about what might have been, but there comes a point when we've just got to accept what is.

#132 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 03:31 AM

Just remember to give your old Dalton Bond a moustache.


Oh, well played, sir. B)

#133 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 05:25 PM

Loved the fight scene in Total Recall between Sharon Stone and Rachel Ticotin. So, bringing that back to Bond, I'd prefer to see two equally strong, equally beautiful women going at each in other in a Bond movie than not.



Don't disagree with that, in principle. My gripe with the Jinx/Frost fight is that, apart from having the wrong girl die, it shames the already weak fight between Bond and Graves. The better place to have Jinx and Miranda fight each other would have been where Miranda, Sparkles and co. go to see Jinx trapped in the room at the ice palace. I mean, was there any real need for Frost and friends to go to see Jinx, if they were not going to kill her in the first place?

I mean, there are easier ways to dispose of an enemy agent than to fire the Death Star at her...

Edited by Dalton_Craig, 29 November 2009 - 05:35 PM.


#134 Tybre

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 02:24 AM

Loved the fight scene in Total Recall between Sharon Stone and Rachel Ticotin. So, bringing that back to Bond, I'd prefer to see two equally strong, equally beautiful women going at each in other in a Bond movie than not.



Don't disagree with that, in principle. My gripe with the Jinx/Frost fight is that, apart from having the wrong girl die, it shames the already weak fight between Bond and Graves. The better place to have Jinx and Miranda fight each other would have been where Miranda, Sparkles and co. go to see Jinx trapped in the room at the ice palace. I mean, was there any real need for Frost and friends to go to see Jinx, if they were not going to kill her in the first place?

I mean, there are easier ways to dispose of an enemy agent than to fire the Death Star at her...


You seem to forget which film you're talking about here.

#135 Dalton_Craig

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Posted 01 December 2009 - 03:48 AM

You seem to forget which film you're talking about here.


What I was doing was responding to Gravity's desire to see a fight between two strong women (in the mould or along the lines of the one in Total Recall) in a Bond film and then comparing that intention to the final product in Die Another Day, by pointing out a way to have improved the fight (namely, shifting it to an earlier point in the film).

The wisecrack about "the Death Star" was a derogatory shot at the concept of the Icarus satellite.

Or were you taking a backhanded swipe at Die Another Day and how poor it is? B)

#136 Guy Haines

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:46 PM

I disagree. I think they could have made a Bond movie with more humor and style with Dalton, it just would have been a different type of humor than with Moore or Brosnan. Dalton showed much more charm in TLD than he did in LTK plus he could have played a more slicker and humorous Bond then he did in his two movies. Check out his performance in The Rocketeer, Hot Fuzz and even Scarlett. He demonstrated that he can do comedy in those films.


I own THE ROCKETEER on dvd. He's actually quite good at playing the cad, or charming rogue, so to speak, in THE ROCKETEER, but I wouldn't equate lines such as "Why didn't you learn the violin?" (from TLD) or "I do my own stunts." (from The Rocketeer) as being humorous. I would say Dalton's humor was decidedly deadly, and you either got it or you didn't. I loved "You earned it...you keep it...*OLD BUDDY*", or when Sanchez tells Bond he'll need to possess a certain skill that the locals in Isthmus don't have, and Bond looks around the room and says: 'That shouldn't be too difficult'. But I think those lines mostly went over the heads of the audience. I think the audience was probably even taken aback, somewhat, when Dalton cracks a smile in the plane, as he's rolling around in all that cash in LTK. I just don't think he was comfortable doing the kind of humor that was needed to lighten up the series. He was deadly serious all the time, with very little warmth, or humor that the audience could relate to.

American audiences aren't particularly sophisticated. You've got to basically spell out the jokes for them or they won't get it. God knows I've loved some really wacky, cult-type tv shows such as STRANGERS WITH CANDY or PARKER LEWIS CAN'T LOSE that don't have laugh tracks and make the audience work to understand the jokes. But that's because I possess a higher intellect, and am a physically superior specimen, than most of my contemporaries. While I can appreciate Dalton, the vast majority of my trailer-park pals preferred the more stylish adventures and humor of Connery, Moore, and Brosnan, or the dangerous thuggery of Craig.

Dalton may not have been finished after two films, but Maibaum and Glen certainly had no petrol, or fuel, left in their tanks; that's a fact.


I very much enjoyed both Dalton Bond movies, and have always rated Dalton very highly. But I always felt that the problem with both films was that the lead actor was trying to portray Bond as Fleming intended with a production team whose default setting was to create another Roger Moore Bond film. The tensions between these two approaches to Bond were obvious on screen, to me at least.

A Bond with a new approach needed a director and screenwriter who complimented that approach. A pity it didn't happen.