24 replies to this topic

[Double-0 Six]

As you probably know, For Your Eyes Only was going to be the start of a new Bond era. What if Timothy Daltan had started with FYEO, do you think the following films would be different? Would the comedic moments of Roger Moore's last few films have been toned down? Would we have reached the darker Licence To Kill much sooner, or would it have never happened?

I think we would have seen a much more serious tone throughout, along the lines of The Living Daylights, especially with A View To A Kill, which I'm sure wouldn't have featured half the humour.

I also think Daltan would have gone on to do five or six films and probably become one of the most popular Bond actors.

Obviously that's just my humble opinion, but what do you lot think?

[Xenobia]

Certainly had Dalton started with FYEO and we had that image of Bond at Tracy's grave...it would have added to the poignancy of the early scenes in LTK.

Also, had it been established from FYEO that this was not a Bond that slept around (no fun with the young ice skater...maybe a moment with Lisel, or maybe not, but mostly eyes on Melina), then his later monogamous movies would have also made sense. (Although, truth be told, he did have two women in LTK.)

I think Dalton's Bond would have remained the same, but Kara from LTK might have been cut more along Melina's lines (not in the vengeful sense, but in the sense that she could take care of herself). Pam could have been softened a tad, which would have been good for the character.

I think we would have all been spared Bond in clown make-up in Octopussy, which by all means is a good thing. But that means we would have wound up with another woman playing Octopussy, and given that I like Maud Adams, that could be a problem.

And it would have been utterly painful to watch TD acting with Tanya Roberts in A View to a Kill. I do not think Dalton gives to his leading ladies the way Moore does, so the deficencies that we all saw in TR would have been the more obvious had Dalton been playing the role then. However, I wouldn't mind seeing Dalton and Walken go at each other.

So yes, it would have been better for Dalton had his series started from FYEO. That being said, I don't have a problem with Roger played Bond in FYEO (and folks can search for my much longer discussion on that matter), and I have a few quibbles but not major problems with the way he played Bond in Octupussy and AVTAK.

-- Xenobia

PS: Alright everyone one question: Had Dalton started with FYEO...where would he have ended...would 1986 had happened???

[Turn]

I had never really though about this one before. Nobody really mentions if Dalton was in the running to replace Moore when he was going through his games with Cubby Broccoli as he did before each new Bond.

It makes me wonder if Dalton would have been able to pull off the harder-edged Bond any more successfully. I think Moore made the transition from the ultra light fare of Moonraker to the grittier FYEO because the audience grew to accept Moore as Bond. I'm not sure if Dalton could have. And we may well have ended up with PB or somebody else in the role in '86.

[brendan007]

if dalton had taken over the role in FYEO, bond probably wouldnt be here today. audiences clearly didnt like the hard eged dalton bond, the grosses and attendances on LTK proved that. FYEO was accepted purely because of Moore, having Dalton in that film would have been too much. then in 83 when the two bonds (connerys return) films were in competition, we all know connery would have won against dalton

[Bondpurist]

FYEO was in 1981, not 1983, that was Octopussy. The fact that LTK failed at the box office was due to MGM's virtually non existant advertising campaign, not Dalton'a portrayal. If the Americans understood the word 'revoked' then LTK wouldn't have wasted half of its budget on a dud marketing strategy anyway. FYEO would of suited Dalton's hard edged Bond down to the ground and would of been a fine debut by anyone's standards. The exciting, mysterious, dangerous Dalton would have hacked the geriactic Connery and McClory's cronies to bits had there of been a competition. Which there wouldn't seeing as FYEO was two years earlier.

[Xenobia]

Originally posted by Bondpurist
If the Americans understood the word 'revoked' then LTK wouldn't have wasted half of its budget on a dud marketing strategy anyway.

Careful Bondpurist. Despite what you might think, Americans do have a strong vocabulary, and we do know what the word "revoked" means. What on earth makes you think that Americans wouldn't have understood what that word meant?

MGM's choice was foolhardy to be sure, and if they made it under the false assumption that the audience wouldn't understand the title, then MGM are bigger fools than I ever thought they were.

-- Xenobia

[Bondpurist]

The reason that Licence Revoked was dropped as the title of LTK was because the American audience either didn't know what it meant, or thought it was a reference to their driving licence. Hence my quote.

[WC]

Whether or not the American audience thought 'revoked' referred to a driving licence, it wouldn't have been a good title anyway. Nearly all the titles refer to either a military phrase or a very powerful image along the lines of life, death, love, power, world domination etc. 'Licence Revoked' is almost along the same, run-of-the-mill lines as 'Beyond the Ice' - ie nothing mysterious. When there was that Hungerford massacre a few years ago (or possibly Dunblane, I can't remember), there was Licence To Kill on tv that very night. However, in the light of that shooting, LTK was taken off the tv schedule for precisely the reason that it conjured up such a strong and potentially sensitive image of giving absolute carte blanche to murder. A title like Licence Revoked wouldn't have had those same connotations, which shows it's a less powerful image.

Furthermore, can you really imagine Gladys Knight singing "Got my licence revoked"? - it does sound like something too trivial as losing your driving licence.

Back on subject, Dalton could have made a very good debut in FYEO - I personally would have liked to have seen more offerings from him - certainly AVTAK would have seemed a more titanic struggle between the hard-edged Dalton and the megalomaniac Christopher Walken.

[Spectre001]

Originally posted by Xenobia
 

And it would have been utterly painful to watch TD acting with Tanya Roberts in A View to a Kill.  I do not think Dalton gives to his leading ladies the way Moore does, so the deficencies that we all saw in TR would have been the more obvious had Dalton been playing the role then.  However, I wouldn't mind seeing Dalton and Walken go at each other.

I wouldn't be surprised to have seen TD shoot Roberts in AVTAK had he played Bond in thast movie.

[Xenobia]

Maybe not shoot her Spectre...but perhaps left her in that burning elevator...

-- Xenobia

[Bondpurist]

Anyone with any sense would of dealt with Stacey pretty quickly. I mean, she let Bond shoot the gun with rock salt how many times before teling him? Too many. Dalton would of been made to look like Laurence Olivier next to her. (Not that he's too far behind anyway.)
As for Licence Revoked - I think it's a pretty good title.It's certainly less cliched than most, and sounds a bit different from the norm, which would of been appropriate for LTK. It's quite Bondian and not as vague and dull LTK as a title. The theme tune would obviously be changed to something totally different. At least if they'd of stuck with LR they could of had a more successful marketing campaign.

[Mister Asterix]

Originally posted by Bondpurist
The reason that Licence Revoked was dropped as the title of LTK was because the American audience either didn't know what it meant, or thought it was a reference to their driving licence. Hence my quote.

Americans know the meaning of revoked, but the second part of your statement is true. Americans associate the term 'license revoked' with their driver's licenses and MGM's brilliant marketing geniuses thought that audience would confuse Licence Revoked with the 1988 Corey Haim/Corey Feldman comedy License To Drive. When British fans heard that Americans didn't understand the title they thought that it meant that Americans didn't understand the word 'revoked' the truth was was that Americans mearly had different association for the word.

Originally posted by Bondpurist (edited)
The fact that LTK failed at the box office was due to MGM's virtually non existant advertising campaign...

That's in large part true. GoldenEye's marketing budget was bigger than Licence to Kill's filming budget.

[Carver]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Dalton should have played Bond in FYEO, although he may have been very good. I can't really imagine any other actor in FYEO as Moore, but Dalton would have had the age advantage, as he would have been nearer to Melina Havelock's age than Moore was. I don't think Dalton would have been to good in OP either. He would probably have been to out of place, byt this is mean, I can't see him sharing a meal with Kahn, or doing the tarzan yell, OP was definately a Moore film. That brings me to AVTAK. Yes, Dalton should have done that. The right age, and he would have brought seriousness to a film which needed it a lot. Dalton would probably have complained to the producers about Stacy's character, and rightly so, and I think that Dalton would have been more suited to AVTAK than our Rog. (no offense to either parties meant here, Daltonites or Mooreites, as I'm neutral when it comes to these two now)

[Sir James]

Well I think everything happens for a reason. Moore was Bond in FYEO for a reason, and thats that. Personally, I am gald he was in it, it proved to many rabid Connery fans (as if TSWLM was not enough convincing) that Moore could play the part with well, and with a hard edge.

Oh and I am from the U.S. and Bondpurist, I KNOW WHAT REVOKED MEANS!

[Bondpurist]

Shame not enough of you knew in 1989, eh?

[Sir James]

does it really matter what it was called, either way LTK looked like trouble right from the start, all through filming, through release, and the horror after it. First the writers guild goes on strike, goodbye Dick Maibum, then the whole Licence Revoked stuff (which really does not matter because although some of us Americans have not yet mastered English, we wont not go see a movie over a title, besides LTK is more Bondish anyway.) Than all the troubles with the budget and shooting, and finally the box office bomb in the U.S. I hate to say it becuase I do enjoy LTK, but maybe it was just destined to fail...

[Bondpurist]

It may of failed at the box office, but artistically it has always been a roaring success.

[Sir James]

Artisitically?

Well personally, I always thought it looked like a re run of Miami Vice. And what is so artistic about a dated looking film, and people are swearing every 3 minutes. While in terms of script it may be the closest representaion of Flemings 007, it really looks kind of old when on screen...

[Loomis]

I don't think LTK is either the most dated-looking Bond film, or the closest screen representation of Fleming's Bond.

As for people swearing every three minutes, this is news to me. Having sat through LTK far more times than I would be prepared to admit even under torture, I cannot think of a single incidence of foul language in the film.

On the other hand, watching the PG-rated LIVE AND LET DIE this morning (made as far back as 1973), I was fairly stunned to hear the expression: "Holy ****". And from the lips of a woman who looked old enough to be Roger Moore's grandmother!

[Loomis]

Okay, thinking about it, I do seem to remember Carey Lowell muttering "****" at one point, but that's about it for profanity....

[1q2w3e4r]

Licence to Kill wasn't viewed by EON as a failure. I think everyone needs to realise that. Neither was The Man With The Golden Gun.

The reason between the lengthly periods of no films between '74-'77 and '89-'95 was due to legal reasons concerning the studio and Harry Saltzman's bankrupcy putting the rights to his half of DANJAQ up in the air.

Everyone knows that LTK and TMWTGG weren't box office succecsses as far as the series goes but EON were quite happy to have made that third Dalton film in '91 if they'd had the chance.

Anyway it would have rocked having Dalton in FYEO. While i like Rog's movies, and consider SPY easily his best. He was looking long in the tooth in FYEO. Most noticebly when you can see his ever expanding waist line.

[1q2w3e4r]

I think LTK looks fine on screen. And nothing ages quite as bad as poor Roger's safari suit and flared tux pants. Gotta feel sorry for him being stuck with 70's styling.

[ChandlerBing]

Roger was great in FYEO. The music is pretty dated, though, but some parts are still great.

[RossMan]

It would have been good had Dalton started with FYEO since it would give us at least three more movies with him as Bond. FYEO is the down to earth and serious type of Bond movie which Dalton is good at so he'd probably have been better than Moore in it. I can just imagine Dalton's Bond kicking Locke's car over the cliff.

[B5Erik2]

Dalton's my favorite Bond, but had he been Bond in FYEO it would have been a disaster.

Not artistically - because it probably would have been an even better movie - but at the box office. Coming off the biggest joke-fest of the series to that point, Moonraker, the serious Fleming-esque Bond of Dalton would have gone over like a lead baloon.

Once Moore did FYEO audiences would have been ready for Dalton. The series would have been best off had Dalton done Octopussy through LTK. The goofy things in OP and AVTAK would have been dropped, and I'm guessing that Dalton would have shot Tanya Roberts himself during rehearsals if the producers refused to replace her! (Ooops - was that gun really loaded?)

As it was, though, Moore did a fantastic job on FYEO, and a passable job on both OP & AVTAK (although he was clearly too old to be playing Bond by that point).