220 replies to this topic

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The producers felt there was still a story to tell, so they decided to tell it.

You mean, the producers felt there was a huge success (CR) with critics and audiences to cash in further, through a direct sequel's vehicle, so they decided it to capitalize it.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 05 August 2009 - 02:13 AM.

[JimmyBond]

The producers felt there was still a story to tell, so they decided to tell it.

You mean, the producers felt there was a huge success (CR) with critics and audiences to cash in further, through a direct sequel's vehicle, so they decided it to capitalize it.

No, that is not what I said at all. In fact I imagine a standalone Bond film that had nothing to do with Casino Royale would have done just as well as QoS did. But that's not the route the producers wanted to go, and why should they? Why does art always have to be formulaic?

[tdalton]

The producers felt there was still a story to tell, so they decided to tell it.

You mean, the producers felt there was a huge success (CR) with critics and audiences to cash in further, through a direct sequel's vehicle, so they decided it to capitalize it.

No, that is not what I said at all. In fact I imagine a standalone Bond film that had nothing to do with Casino Royale would have done just as well as QoS did. But that's not the route the producers wanted to go, and why should they? Why does art always have to be formulaic?

Agreed. The producers had a chance to continue their story from CASINO ROYALE, and they took advantage of it.

I also don't understand the argument regarding whether or not they should continue the story in the way that they did based on how Bond appeared to have moved on from Vesper in LIVE AND LET DIE. EON's CASINO ROYALE is so far removed from Fleming's novel, that I don't think that it really matters whether they followed Fleming's character arc from LIVE AND LET DIE or not, considering that they didn't follow much of anything that Fleming had written in CASINO ROYALE.

[JimmyBond]

I know you're backing up my argument here tdalton, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with your assessment of Casino Royale. I think it's one of the most faithful adaptions of a Fleming novel since OHMSS. Ok so it's updated a bit, and stuff has been added to make it more cinematic. But the moment Bond gets to Montenegro the film follows the book virtually beat for beat.

[Dekard77]

Book wise whats the connection between CR,LALD and OHMSS ??? As in how does Bond change?

[JimmyBond]

At the end of the Casino Royale novel he vows to hunt down the organization behind what happend in the novel. Which turns out to be Smersh. And while I havent read the OHMSS novel, I believe that's the first time Bond mentions Vesper in any meaninful way (not out loud of course, this is all done with inner monologue).

[Dekard77]

Ok so how does LALD fit into the continuation? Just asking cos I haven't read the books.

[JimmyBond]

Been a while since I read it. But I think the fact that Mr. Big works for SMERSH is one of the reasons Bond is put on the case.

[Dekard77]

Been a while since I read it. But I think the fact that Mr. Big works for SMERSH is one of the reasons Bond is put on the case.

Thank You. Don't you think CR/QOS is a digested version of Bond's feelings for Vesper and the fact he is on the trail of The Organisation is what those three books also deal with?
For some strange reason I found that Bond was not in love but rather bitter about the whole betrayal.

[Major Tallon]

At the end of the Casino Royale novel he vows to hunt down the organization behind what happend in the novel. Which turns out to be Smersh. And while I havent read the OHMSS novel, I believe that's the first time Bond mentions Vesper in any meaninful way (not out loud of course, this is all done with inner monologue).

There's a little bit in Chapter 16 of Goldfinger where Vesper's name is mentioned. Bond has been captured and tortured into unconsciousness at Goldfinger's Swiss compound. He comes to initially on a plane bound for New York, thinking groggily that he's died and is headed for heaven. He wonders whether Tilly is "going up" with him. Then comes: "Bond squirmed with embarrassment. How would he introduce her to the others, to Vesper for instance?"

The passage isn't nearly as sentimental as the reference in OHMSS, but it shows that Vesper's still deep in Bond's subconscious.

[sorking]

The producers felt there was still a story to tell, so they decided to tell it.

You mean, the producers felt there was a huge success (CR) with critics and audiences to cash in further, through a direct sequel's vehicle, so they decided it to capitalize it.

You can keep repeating this point, it doesn't make it true. There's no evidence at all that reliance on a previous successes narrative makes for a more financially successful sequel. If there was, everyone would be doing it.

The logic simply doesn't add up. Neither does the term 'direct sequel'. Meeting Bond a year later, picking up the existing threads of the CR story, would also have been a direct sequel. So what are we actually talking about? That setting a film in an immediate time-frame after the previous one makes for bigger box office? Don't be ridiculous.

I guarantee you that the general public are indifferent to the difference. To the point where most ticket-buyers didn't even know it was direct a time-frame. The came for Craig, for the action, for the new Bond tone. 'How much time has passed' wouldn't even make the top ten in audience research 'reasons for seeing the film.

[Tybre]

Been a while since I read it. But I think the fact that Mr. Big works for SMERSH is one of the reasons Bond is put on the case.

That's specifically why. M knows Bond wants to hunt down SMERSH and make them pay, so the moment Bond is fit for duty, M puts Bond on the case of a suspected SMERSH agent.

[HildebrandRarity]

Here's some examples to compare Shaeffer's style with Meheux's.

Meheux:

http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0686.htm


Shaeffer:

http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0292.htm

Thanks, The Shark!

Phil Meheux gets the Goat prize for making Bond look like a bloated, ugly gimp in that shot in Casino Royale. Shame on him for the worst ever shot of James Bond on film. How the producers let that shot get into Casino Royale is beyond me. Everytime I saw that shot of our hero in the Hotel Splendide limo at the cinema, I had to whince in agony, in shame. I lowered myself into my seat repeatedly at the theatre not wanting others to know I was a James Bond fan. That's how Meheux made me feel.

Look at Shaefer's similar shot in comparison!

Roberto Shaefer kicks Meheux's 10 Ways To Sunday. Hands Down. No Contest. NO COMPARISON!!!

He's another reason why Quantum rates over most other Bonds, if not all of them.

[Mr_Wint]

Look at Shaefer's similar shot in comparison!

This is not still photography.

And if you really have to compare them like this, then at least do it with the same image quality.

[HildebrandRarity]

No improvement in image quality will get rid of that horribly bloated, ugly and greasy look 007 has in Casino Royale. It will highlight the glaring mess even more.

The way Craig is lit and shot in that scene is the cinematographic low point of the Eon Bond canon. Period.

The only way to get rid of the blight perpetrated by Meheux is to cut a few seconds out of that scene.

[sorking]

No improvement in image quality will get rid of that horribly bloated, ugly and greasy look 007 has in Casino Royale. It will highlight the glaring mess even more.

Yeah, you can tell how bad it was by the way women hated looking at the guy for two hours twenty. 'Look at that bloated fatty' they would say, disappointed that he looked so constantly dreadful.

'Low angle, head down, greenscreen shoot' vs 'direct angle, head up, location shoot'. This isn't a level playing field. Not least because the shot choice has to be agreed with the director, and the logistics aren't always the DP's call. More elements that means the two can't be directly compared.

Also amused by the fact that the QoS shot shows the damn camera reflected in Bond's dark glasses. Points off for that, surely?!

Regardless, cinematography isn't simply a beauty contest. I love Schaefer's work too, but Meheux's stuff is crisp, clean and story-oriented. I wish more movies were shot his way. I just also wish more than that were shot by Schaefer.

[JimmyBond]

Look at Shaefer's similar shot in comparison!

This is not still photography.

And if you really have to compare them like this, then at least do it with the same image quality.

Come on, there's being antagonistic, and then there's just being silly. You know as well as I do that that shot of Bond in the limo is a horrible shot. I'm not sure I agree with H that he looks like a gimp, but he looks really greasy, and it's just an ugly shot in general.

I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I will agree with you if you speak some sense, and this case you just arent.

[Mr_Wint]

Look at Shaefer's similar shot in comparison!

This is not still photography.

And if you really have to compare them like this, then at least do it with the same image quality.

Come on, there's being antagonistic, and then there's just being silly. You know as well as I do that that shot of Bond in the limo is a horrible shot. I'm not sure I agree with H that he looks like a gimp, but he looks really greasy, and it's just an ugly shot in general.

I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I will agree with you if you speak some sense, and this case you just arent.

I didn't say anything bad or anything good about the shot in the limo... (?)

It was HildebrandRarity's method that I didn't like.

[JimmyBond]

Fair enough. My apoligies then.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Look at Shaefer's similar shot in comparison!

This is not still photography.

And if you really have to compare them like this, then at least do it with the same image quality.

Come on, there's being antagonistic, and then there's just being silly. You know as well as I do that that shot of Bond in the limo is a horrible shot. I'm not sure I agree with H that he looks like a gimp, but he looks really greasy, and it's just an ugly shot in general.

I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I will agree with you if you speak some sense, and this case you just arent.

I didn't say anything bad or anything good about the shot in the limo... (?)

It was HildebrandRarity's method that I didn't like.

It was just HildebrandRarity showing again his big concern for any movie, in this case CR, that could compete in any aspect with his sacred QOS.

[JimmyBond]

Really you guys? Let it go, just because you don't like the way he posts doesnt mean you have to get all up in arms about it. At a board I used to visit there was a rule: "Discuss the post, not the poster."

Is it too hard to do that?

[Loomis]

No improvement in image quality will get rid of that horribly bloated, ugly and greasy look 007 has in Casino Royale. It will highlight the glaring mess even more.

The way Craig is lit and shot in that scene is the cinematographic low point of the Eon Bond canon. Period.

Hilly, don't be silly.

And has it occurred to you that it probably wasn't Phil Meheux's fault "for making Bond look like a bloated, ugly gimp in that shot in Casino Royale"? Could it perchance be that.... Craig looked like that anyway? We all have our off days, and even the world's greatest photographic genius would have been unable to make Craig look like a twenty-year-old with ultra-low body fat and perfect cheekbones.

Besides, I like his plumpness in that scene. It's Conneryesque, and thus fits CASINO ROYALE's retro stylistics very nicely. But if you feel the need to blame someone - not that I think this is a blameworthy moment, for, as I say, I think it works extremely well - then blame Craig. He'd evidently been stuffing himself with those Czech meat dumplings he admitted he became addicted to in Prague.

James Bond is supposed to look like a man, and a man who likes his food and drink - not some fey teenage fashion model who makes himself throw up after eating carbs. He's not BRUNO.

[The Shark]

The way Craig is lit and shot in that scene is the cinematographic low point of the Eon Bond canon. Period.

The only way to get rid of the blight perpetrated by Meheux is to cut a few seconds out of that scene.

O really?

I'd say Craig looks far worse in Quantum of Solace:

http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0038.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0039.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0194.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0204.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0271.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0890.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0896.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0959.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1111.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1520.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1521.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1524.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1529.htm

Compared to:

http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0025.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0027.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0043.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0118.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0191.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0229.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0313.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0342.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0351.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0427.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0508.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0557.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0721.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0805.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0827.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0859.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0947.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1002.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1050.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1073.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1191.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1384.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1539.htm

Pure Bond.

Though for some reason the cameramen in Quantum of Solace decided to make him look 30 years older.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I'd say Craig looks far worse in Quantum of Solace:

http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0038.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0039.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0194.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0204.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0271.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0890.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0896.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_0959.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1111.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1520.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1521.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1524.htm
http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1529.htm

Compared to:

http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0025.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0027.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0043.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0118.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0191.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0229.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0313.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0342.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0351.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0427.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0508.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0557.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0721.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0805.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0827.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0859.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_0947.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1002.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1050.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1073.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1191.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1384.htm
http://screenmusings...ges/CR_1539.htm

Pure Bond.

Though for some reason the cameramen in Quantum of Solace decided to make him look 30 years older.

Okay, now we're just being petty.

[Bucky]

way to pick out every still of craig making a slightly funny face. quantum of solace was beautiful. casino royale looked good too but i feel like quantum is just on another level, although shooting on location more probably helped too.

[The Shark]

All my point is that - yeah Shaefer's shots of locations and vehicles were good, but his shots of Craig compared to Meheux were frickin ugly. Craig couldn't have possibly aged 30 years in 2, it's either down to the lighting, makeup artists or cameramen.

[JimmyBond]

I'd take your post more seriously Shark, if you hadnt picked a majority of action shots out of QoS, and then compared them to shots where Craig is not IN MOTION in Casino Royale.

Seems you stacked the deck in your favor there.

[DaveBond21]

I think Daniel just needed to sort his hair out for this shot (and this scene in general):-


http://screenmusings...es/QoS_1083.htm

[JimmyBond]

He's supposed to be drunk. I know when I'm drunk the last thing I'm worrying about is how my hair looks.

[DaveBond21]

He's supposed to be drunk. I know when I'm drunk the last thing I'm worrying about is how my hair looks.

LOL. That's true. Me too....