59 replies to this topic

[tim partridge]

Partridge,
I think you misunderstood part of what I was saying. I agree with most of what you said about DAD. I dislike the style of DAD as well, but I think Tamahori succeeded somewhat at making the movie he was trying to make. Nowhere did I say that DAD on paper looked like a Craig film. In fact TWINE on paper probably looked the most Fleming like of Brosnan's film, but TWINE really fell flat in production. DAD was certainly a slicker production that TWINE and I think that is what Tamahori was going for. In my book, both TWINE and DAD rank toward the bottom of the series.

Jag,

I was refering to the comments above that seem to claim that part one of DAD could have been a Craig film. I don't agree with you about "a slicker production", either. Tamahori's film ended up like the car Homer Simpson designed (that makes his Brother bankrupt) whereby it thinks it's intentions are cool but it ends up looking goofy and cheap despite having had all that money spent on it. It so fancied itself as a run of the mill Hollywood blockbuster but didn't know how to compete, even with the likes of Christian Wagner in there. Apted's film on the other hand, while at worst blandly conservative, at least is consistent and the production values are (second unit aside) to a classical standard, in my opinion. Apted had the good taste and judgement not to mess with the formula like Tamahori did.

Remember that a lot of the crew who worked on TWINE also did DAD, and one of the biggest drops in quality I think is in the visual effects department. TWINE got to Oscar bake off and the majority of the shots you'd never guess as effects (BMW driving through the pipeline for example) yet DAD pretty much undid the standard for seamless realism that Derek Meddings had set in 1973 (judging by the response to the infamous CGI surf scene alone). That does reflect badly on the actual design and direction of DAD compared to the applauded slickness of TWINE in this dept.


Gotta say again, I still don't get how part one of DAD is this "small" and "gritty" excursion. I remember sitting there in the audience on opening night, my heart sinking the moment that first explosion goes off and it's loud, boring, predictable and unexciting pyrotechnics trying to "wow" us. Brosnan's Bond a indestructable Superman; gunfire and techno music wall to wall. All the worst Vic Armstrong moments from TWINE (thnk the boat chase) outdone in terms of intrusiveness, as everything on screen blows up for no motivated reason. Then we get "saved by the bell", followed by a retread of the downbeat PTS ending of TWINE, in which Bond is punished and "made human", yet here unlike TWINE it's a tonal jump into a completely different film.

Edited by tim partridge, 01 May 2009 - 11:05 PM.

[ACE]

And if the 2nd half of the film followed this tone, then maybe he would've been asked to come back.

But he was asked to come back.

And I don't think the second half of DIE ANOTHER DAY should have followed the tone of the first (which in any case is hardly ultra-realistic). I love the film, but its story is fundamentally too campy and silly for straight-down-the-line serious treatment. It doesn't have the drama or emotional resonance of CASINO ROYALE or QUANTUM OF SOLACE.

I think Tamahori and Eon always intended - rightly - that DAD should be A Film of Two Halves™, starting out relatively (for the Brosnan era) "small" and gritty before blossoming into a grand old rollercoaster of a good old-fashioned everything-but-the-kitchen-sink escapist hokum Bond movie. Not that I think Eon cares about anniversary films as much as the fans do (he types Zorinesquely ), but I believe the Bond people wanted DAD to be a kind of one-stop 007's Greatest Hits film, containing a bit of every permutation of Bondage to date to sit alongside all the references and in-jokes. And I think they succeeded spectacularly in making DAD a sheer riot of tongue-in-cheek entertainment.

I agree with the gist of your sentiments Loomis.

DAD is a significantly better made and directed film than TWINE, IMO. It is more fantastical, deliberately so, but also takes far more chances and ups the ante. Yes, the effects were poor in places but not overpoweringly so. I've just been watching the old Bonds at the cinema on digitally restored prints and they are hampered by appalling effects which were bad for their time, Thunderbore's Oscar notwithstanding.

There was an exuberance and charm to DAD. IMO, it took the tweaks to the formula TWINE tried to inject and went a step further. Ultimately, it seemed to be a victim of rewrites in the second half. Interestingly, there are one or two ideas and moments that ended up in Casino Royale. Films tend to follow three acts so I doubt Eon or Tamahori had any intention to make the two halves distinct. I also think the 40th anniversary nuggets were asides and apart from one or two instances, civilians wouldn't really have noticed or cared.

Whether a film is well made or not depends on whether we like it. We see it through the prism our own prejudices. I think structurally and story-wise, TWINE is weak and certainly not helped by lacklustre second unit directing and the worst action editing in any Bond film. TWINE central, convoluted, operatic menage a trois story is sacrificed at the altar of providing all the Bond tropes. I've just watched TWINE tonight at the cinema again and while dramatically it has potential, no way does it hang as well as a film than DAD. IMO.

A lot of people must have liked DAD at the time for it to achieve the grosses it did. It is too glib to dismiss that achievement. I think there was just a pure enjoyment factor to it coupled with some iconic moments. Sure, it doesn't hold up to forensic scrutiny. But you know what? No Bond film really does!

[Safari Suit]

I seem to recall someone around here posting that Tamahori made cryptic comments along the lines of "the guy after me is going to have to do it completely differently", which could suggest that if EON was planning to do a "reboot" or whatever as early as 2002, they made Tamahori aware of it, which could in turn suggest they were even considering him as the director who could realise their vision.

[Loomis]

I seem to recall someone around here posting that Tamahori made cryptic comments along the lines of "the guy after me is going to have to do it completely differently"

Yep, that was me.

which could suggest that if EON was planning to do a "reboot" or whatever as early as 2002, they made Tamahori aware of it, which could in turn suggest they were even considering him as the director who could realise their vision.

Exactly.

I wish I had the interview to hand. In December 2002 or thereabouts (it was certainly at the time of DAD's theatrical run), Tamahori told Sight & Sound:

"I was given more creative freedom than any other Bond director, with the exception of Martin Campbell. And I think the next director will be given even more freedom than Campbell." (Or words to that effect.)

Note he didn't say "the next director will be given even more freedom than me". No, first he establishes Campbell as the gold standard for freedom within the Bond franchise, and then he goes on to say that the next director will get even more freedom than the almighty Campbell. Which turned out to be absolutely true, even though Campbell himself became the beneficiary of that freedom!

Now, in 2002, Barbara Broccoli would certainly have been aware of Daniel Craig, based on his work in OUR FRIENDS IN THE NORTH. If memory serves, he was just starting to become a "name" in Britain thanks to his role in TOMB RAIDER, while the tabloids were adding to his fame by reporting him as Kate Moss' then-boyfriend. Also, Hugh Jackman and Clive Owen were getting strong support online as potential Bonds.

I think Eon kicks around projects and possibilities long before they're actually made, recycling ideas when appropriate. A reboot was considered for what became THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS (but not acted upon until CASINO ROYALE, of course), while QUANTUM OF SOLACE features an action scene (the freefall) originally earmarked for GOLDENEYE.

So it's easy to believe that, as you say, "EON was planning to do a 'reboot' or whatever as early as 2002". If so, it does not mean that Eon was not also mulling the idea of a business-as-usual BOND 21 with Brosnan. Heck, Eon was also planning JINX: THE MOVIE (which in fact got to a surprisingly advanced stage of pre-production, with a script by Purvis and Wade and the engagement of director Stephen Frears - I know that JINX is a joke among Bond fans, but, man, I'd love to have seen what Frears would have done with the material, and also how the flick would have been marketed and received - and, hey, it might even have been a good, entertaining piece of work in its own right).

[ACE]

Of course, the Jinx movie is discussed on the commentary of the DeLuxe CR DVD.
And it was to be a sinewy thriller. Directed by Stephen Frears. Surely, that had to have tantalising possibilities. I don't know about reboot but I'm sure the aim after DAD was to make the next Bond movie cheaper than DAD. That was the case after Moonraker too. They needed to control costs. Pretty sure the reboot idea was not the original intention but probably emerged during the creative churning.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I wish I had the interview to hand. In December 2002 or thereabouts (it was certainly at the time of DAD's theatrical run), Tamahori told Sight & Sound:

"I was given more creative freedom than any other Bond director, with the exception of Martin Campbell. And I think the next director will be given even more freedom than Campbell." (Or words to that effect.)

Note he didn't say "the next director will be given even more freedom than me". No, first he establishes Campbell as the gold standard for freedom within the Bond franchise, and then he goes on to say that the next director will get even more freedom than the almighty Campbell. Which turned out to be absolutely true, even though Campbell himself became the beneficiary of that freedom!

That's interesting to read. Thanks for posting.

Of course, the Jinx movie is discussed on the commentary of the DeLuxe CR DVD.
And it was to be a sinewy thriller. Directed by Stephen Frears. Surely, that had to have tantalising possibilities. I don't know about reboot but I'm sure the aim after DAD was to make the next Bond movie cheaper than DAD. That was the case after Moonraker too. They needed to control costs.

Was it not the case that any costs issue that arose after MR was because UA was in financial trouble at the time?

[tim partridge]

Yes, the effects were poor in places but not overpoweringly so. I've just been watching the old Bonds at the cinema on digitally restored prints and they are hampered by appalling effects which were bad for their time, Thunderbore's Oscar notwithstanding.

I agree with you on Thunderbore's Oscar for special effects, but that was from the pre Meddings era when Bond films were a cheap, laughing stock in that department. Tamahori and co brought Bond special effects back to 1971 and I don't think that was the intention at all. I think Tamahori and friends wanted the audience to be genuinely impressed by the high number of obvious, "spectacular" CGI visual effects, competing with the visual experience of "Spider-man" or the "Star Wars" prequel from that year. Tamahori had a similar, unintentionally cheesy CGI car scene in ALONG CAME A SPIDER, so that was clearly all his doing. I think the same goes for the editing too. I think it was to prove how with the times the 007 movies are.

I think structurally and story-wise, TWINE is weak and certainly not helped by lacklustre second unit directing and the worst action editing in any Bond film.

We can strongly disagree here, but I think QOS and MWTGG rule the roost in that department, by some margin. TWINE was very classically edited and I think the problem is in the quality of the actual second unit coverage, given the film Apted was trying to make. Armstrong seems to cross the line (180 degree rule) too frequently, the angles are often weird, the timing of shots questionable (all of those aerial shots from the opening boat chase, shot on tiny remote control heli-cameras seem to have had quite a bit of obvious work done on them in the edit, probably to increase speed and stability of the images). The geography of many of the action scenes is just... baffling. The final part of the Parahawk/ski scene, for example (where Bond's POV seems to be in one of two places).

The biggest offense for me is not shooting any "Bogner" style POV scenes for the ski scenes, which had until that point been an integral part of Bond's ski identity. It also just makes the whole thing look slow and weird, as a stunt man is clumsily followed around by a long lens, with the odd close ups.


Don't get me wrong, I realise that Apted probably approved every storyboard that the second unit had to work from (probably not knowing any better and believing "Vic would save the day"), but I also think it's a bit foolish to blame the editing when the actual footage is very clearly not good. Notice how other scenes that aren't dominated by the second unit, such as the oil pipeline tunnel chase (mostly bluescreen and miniature) seemed to look fine.

A lot of people must have liked DAD at the time for it to achieve the grosses it did. It is too glib to dismiss that achievement.

I think by selling the film aggressively as "HALLE BERRY AND PIERCE BROSNAN IN DIE ANOTHER DAY" like the trailers and marketing seemed to perhaps had a lot to do with it...



Enjoyed reading your perspective on DAD though, ACE. It does make me appreciate how you guys see things on the other side of the fence. I don't think TWINE is a classic, by the way, but I do think it's easily the second best of Brosnan films, and definitely feels like it was at least trying to be Martin Campbell. Plus it's got Salmon AND Kitchen in it!

Edited by tim partridge, 02 May 2009 - 01:22 PM.

[Loomis]

Of course, the Jinx movie is discussed on the commentary of the DeLuxe CR DVD.
And it was to be a sinewy thriller. Directed by Stephen Frears. Surely, that had to have tantalising possibilities.

Absolutely. Is the old noggin letting me down, or did some of the elements of the Purvis/Wade JINX script end up being worked into the CASINO ROYALE screenplay?

Let's not forget that the aborted JINX followed plans to make a Wai Lin spinoff (although I don't believe WAI LIN ever got as far into the pre-production process as JINX did). I wonder whether there was (is?) any discussion to resurrect this idea as a vehicle for Camille. Yes, I can see it now:

ALBERT R. BROCCOLI'S EON PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS
OLGA KURYLENKO AS
CAMILLE
DOMINIC WEST
MALIN AKERMAN
SERGI LOPEZ
and JEFFREY WRIGHT as Felix Leiter
Screenplay by NEAL PURVIS & ROBERT WADE
Produced by BARBARA BROCCOLI and MICHAEL G. WILSON
Directed by MIRA NAIR

[darthbond]

darthbond

[jamie00007]

Well, John Glen did Octopussy AND Licence To Kill...

But honestly, word that Tamahori was returning for CR (or even if he came back now) would be the worst imaginable news I could think of. Ive seen three Tamahori films, all atrocious. Die Another Day was a terrible film, and the things he wanted to do (make "James Bond" a cover name, bring back Connery as Bond's dad etc) showed a complete lack of understanding of the character and a total disregard for the source. Directors like Lee Tamahori and Joel Schumacher should not be let near franchises like Bond or Batman, franchises that have a fanbase who care that the characters are treated with respect.

[Safari Suit]

But sometimes you need someone who isn't necessarily overly reverential to the franchise and has an outsider's eye to shake things up. Did Tamahori manage to do that with DAD? In my opinion often no, but sometimes yes.

[Zorin Industries]

Tamahori might have put himself in the frame for CP, but not CR...

[dee-bee-five]

Thanks for that, Loomis. I must say though, I only thought Tamahori got Cleese and the bridge exchange scene right in DAD.

I agree. In fact, I'd go further and say that, to my mind, he got more right than wrong in DAD.

[Piz Gloria 1969]

"honestly, word that Tamahori was returning for CR (or even if he came back now) would be the worst imaginable news"

Yeah but it'd make a great April Fools joke no *evil*

[Righty007]

Join my Facebook group: Lee Tamahori: Good Drag Queen, Bad Director

Of course, the Jinx movie is discussed on the commentary of the DeLuxe CR DVD.
And it was to be a sinewy thriller. Directed by Stephen Frears. Surely, that had to have tantalising possibilities.

Absolutely. Is the old noggin letting me down, or did some of the elements of the Purvis/Wade JINX script end up being worked into the CASINO ROYALE screenplay?

Let's not forget that the aborted JINX followed plans to make a Wai Lin spinoff (although I don't believe WAI LIN ever got as far into the pre-production process as JINX did). I wonder whether there was (is?) any discussion to resurrect this idea as a vehicle for Camille. Yes, I can see it now:

ALBERT R. BROCCOLI'S EON PRODUCTIONS PRESENTS
OLGA KURYLENKO AS
CAMILLE
DOMINIC WEST
MALIN AKERMAN
SERGI LOPEZ
and JEFFREY WRIGHT as Felix Leiter
Screenplay by NEAL PURVIS & ROBERT WADE
Produced by BARBARA BROCCOLI and MICHAEL G. WILSON
Directed by MIRA NAIR

Why did you put Felix Leiter in that probable abomination of a film?

[JimmyBond]

A movie about Camille sounds quite interesting (yes I know it's not actually a movie). I would love to delve into the backstory of the character.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I think structurally and story-wise, TWINE is weak and certainly not helped by lacklustre second unit directing and the worst action editing in any Bond film.

We can strongly disagree here, but I think QOS and MWTGG rule the roost in that department, by some margin.

With that opinion, I think you're in agreement with half the board, but not with me; how dare you ignore the stylish cuts between Tosca and the gunfight during the Opera segment of QOS? That certainly outdoes anything Apted attempted in TWINE, in my opinion.

[jamie00007]

Indeed. The editing in QoS may be love-it-or-hate it but it at least showed they were trying, unlike the dull and generic editing of the TWINE action scenes which somehow completely removes any sense of excitement or urgency. The skiing scene and submarine scenes are perfect examples.

[coco1997]

A movie about Camille sounds quite interesting (yes I know it's not actually a movie). I would love to delve into the backside of the character.

Fixed.

[Janus Assassin]

I'm glad that Tamahori didn't direct DC's films, because he would have turned the DB9 into Optimus Prime

[DR76]

I'm glad that Tamahori didn't direct DC's films, because he would have turned the DB9 into Optimus Prime

I doubt it. I think that Tamahori would have simply directed the movie, based upon the script given to him. Look at DAD. The movie started out as a decent espionage thriller and turned into a second-rate action fantasy set in Iceland . . . with an invisible Aston-Martin included. It was the DAD script that nearly ruined the movie's second half for me, not Tmahori's direction.

[Tybre]

I'm glad that Tamahori didn't direct DC's films, because he would have turned the DB9 into Optimus Prime

I doubt it. I think that Tamahori would have simply directed the movie, based upon the script given to him. Look at DAD. The movie started out as a decent espionage thriller and turned into a second-rate action fantasy set in Iceland . . . with an invisible Aston-Martin included. It was the DAD script that nearly ruined the movie's second half for me, not Tmahori's direction.

As I recall some of the outlandish decisions were Tamahori's doing. Invisicar was no doubt P&W, but still.

[DR76]

I'm glad that Tamahori didn't direct DC's films, because he would have turned the DB9 into Optimus Prime

I doubt it. I think that Tamahori would have simply directed the movie, based upon the script given to him. Look at DAD. The movie started out as a decent espionage thriller and turned into a second-rate action fantasy set in Iceland . . . with an invisible Aston-Martin included. It was the DAD script that nearly ruined the movie's second half for me, not Tmahori's direction.

As I recall some of the outlandish decisions were Tamahori's doing. Invisicar was no doubt P&W, but still.

The only real outlandish decisions I can recall were the invisible Aston-Martin, which came from Purvis and Wade; and the ice hotel setting in Iceland, which was Barbara Broccoli's decision.

[Safari Suit]

I'm not sure if I'd consider the Ice Hotel particularly outlandish, given that such things actually exist, something which can't be said of many of the other things found in DAD, or many things in other Bond movies for that matter.

But I agree we don't know for sure that Tamahori couldn't have directed CR with the appropriate level of verisimilitude. We can't say for certain that he could have by the same token, but I don't think it's a simple matter of Tamahori+Any Bond Script=Outlandish lunacy

[Judo chop]

I'd sooner see Tamahori given another shot at Bond than the two guys who came before him.

By a million zillion miles I would.

[JimmyBond]

A movie about Camille sounds quite interesting (yes I know it's not actually a movie). I would love to delve into the backside of the character.

Fixed.

I'd sooner delve into her frontside than her backside.

[coco1997]

A movie about Camille sounds quite interesting (yes I know it's not actually a movie). I would love to delve into the backside of the character.

Fixed.

I'd sooner delve into her frontside than her backside.

Either way I'm fine.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

I read an interview with Lee Tamahori, in which he says he won't be returning because the days were over that one director made several Bond films, like Guy Hamilton did 5 subsequent movies.

Of course, Hamilton did 4 (3 subsequent to each other). Perhaps he was misinformed .

[JimmyBond]

Perhaps he meant John Glen.

[FlemingBond]

I don't think Tamahori is even considered for second unit work on Transformers.