117 replies to this topic

[DamnCoffee]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Marc Forster can not do action, it's as simple as that. This is why we had all of the shaky camera movements - he isn't confident at all with it and unfortunately it comes out in the movie. I would rather he left all of the action to the second unit and fleshed out the script and the dialogue scenes, which may I add are brilliant. The thing is though, Forster just scrapes the surface and fails to bring out Bond's inner turmoil over losing Vesper. The closest we came to this was in the Yussef confrontation and Bond and Mathis on the plane. If the entire movie was like that we would've had a winner. There's no point in hiring a dramatic director if they're not going to use him to their full advantage.

[The Dove]

"plot holes?? " " Pointless action??" You've totally lost me Mharkin... I think your issues with Quantum may have been your expectations were set way too high?..

[danielcraigisjamesbond007]

Marc Forster can not do action, it's as simple as that. This is why we had all of the shaky camera movements - he isn't confident at all with it and unfortunately it comes out in the movie. I would rather he left all of the action to the second unit and fleshed out the script and the dialogue scenes, which may I add are brilliant.

I TOTALLY agree. The action scenes, as cool as they COULD have been, are poorly done and they're OVERdone. The camera work there is just horrendous.
But the dialogue scenes (I felt like there were WAAAAY too many of them) were good. I saw The Kite Runner, which was one of Forster's greatest movies, IMO. The dialogue was good. But the director of the Bond movies needs to be like Forster and handle dialogue, and be Campbell to handle the action scenes...

[MattofSteel]

The action in QoS was definitely underwhelming, a byproduct of execution, unfortunately. The Car Chase, the fight with Slate, and the dual-fight in Perla des las Dunas are by far the best. Siena had potential, but for some reason feels rushed.

That's not to say the un-awesome ones are bad. Bond remains the king of the action genre, in my opinion, thanks to the last two films. They're still perfectly serviceable. Just not that impressive.

[Judo chop]

The ACTION in QOS. Considering all factors, such as novelty, relevance, creativity and raw adrenaline, this is how I see it:

Car Chase: B+
Siena Chase: B+
Boat Chase: D
Bond vs. Slate: A-
Tosca: B
Plane Chase and Escape: C+
Perla Fight(s): B+

I'd say only the Slate fight is free of error. And it's badass and pushes the limits for Bond. But it also is the most ‘Bourneish’ moment. In fact, it’s pure ULTIMATUM.

The others all have their strengths as well as their weaknesses.

The car chase is frenetic as promised.

Siena is great. Really great. Should have been an “A”. I’m just annoyed with the editing during the tunnels sequence – I thought that was overkill. And I would like to have had at least one broad aerial shot of the ropes sequence to get my bearings. (Just one.)

The only strength that the boat chase has is that it serves a purpose in driving the plot. It's a relevant, but otherwise useless sequence of irritating noise, and is an editing travesty to boot.

Tosca might have been A-class had Forster taken his time with it. I really, really want to be able to take this portion in, but I’m not allowed to, and that irritates me.

I like the plane jump sequence just fine. The effects don't bother me at all. The concept doesn’t bother me at all. It's just such an obviously inserted piece of action, I can't in good conscience call it 'appropriate', even if I do like it.

Perla is ‘better than most’. The choreography is at least adequate, but I love Greene’s maniacal approach to combat and the set design is positively wonderful. In fact, now I’m wondering why I don’t give it at least an “A-“. I’ll have to think about that.

[bondrules]

Take out the Haiti action (boat chase & car chase), and lengthen some dialogue scenes, then QoS doesn't feel so flawed.

DC is a terrific actor, why waste his talents in pointless action? Let the man deliver lines like no tomorrow, and your movie quality goes up in spades.

[MattofSteel]

You're right, Judo, about Slate's fight being the best and also the most Bourne-ish. Although I'd consider the fight with slate to be vastly superior to anything in Ultimatum (again, not a bad film). But the fight vs. Slate is just as exciting, without being nauseating, and layered in the perfect Bondian sense of humour while being extremely real and almost frighteningly lethal. Love it.

Tosca I consider a "sequence" more than an action scene. The gun battle was cool, but as you said, sort of needlessly chopped.

[byline]

I love "Quantum of Solace" (due mainly to Craig's strength as an actor), but I agree with your grades and analysis, Judo Chop. It's not a perfect film, and some scenes will always leave me wanting more, yet they're not enough to detract from my overall enjoyment.

[DamnCoffee]

I've always found the fight with Slate to be very generic. I just can't feel for any of the characters, like I did in the Casino Royale action sequences, it's a real shame, too. I really want to feel for Slate, after being stabbed in the neck, thrown through a window and impaled, but I just can't. I laughed in the cinema when I heard the crunching effect that Forster put in.

The only sequences that I feel are perfect are the car chase and the Tosca sequence. Oh, and the fight in the elevator, which, as short as it is, is flawless.

[bondrules]

I really want to feel for Slate, being stabbed in the neck, but I just can't.

Me neither. Actually had someone like Camille died, I wouldn't have cared either. Even with her backstory (and plenty of lines, which in QoS, were scarce). I don't feel she brought in enough into the character despite being on screen longer than anyone but Craig.

I felt for Fields and Mathis.

[DamnCoffee]

I felt for Mathis, mainly because I knew him from Casino Royale, and I liked him in there. If he was a brand new character, I really couldn't of cared. Fields I kind of care for, considering that she was depicted as sweet and innocent.

[bondrules]

I felt for Mathis, mainly because I knew him from Casino Royale, and I liked him in there. If he was a brand new character, I really couldn't of cared. Fields I kind of care for, considering that she was depicted as sweet and innocent.

Yup, I feel the same way. I think that Forster can use the excuse of QoS being a sequel for not fleshing out the characters more (if any). But as we can see with Camille, it didn't really work out. Even worst is the fact that her character is a key ingredient in the evolution of who Bond will be.

Sadly, the more I watch QoS, the more I feel my initial evaluation was too forgiving. Not to say it's bad, not at all. But not as good as I first thought. There is some really good stuff in there. But the overall experience is not worth multiple viewings.

[Harmsway]

Perla is ‘better than most’. The choreography is at least adequate, but I love Greene’s maniacal approach to combat and the set design is positively wonderful. In fact, now I’m wondering why I don’t give it at least an “A-“. I’ll have to think about that.

You didn't give it an "A-" because it doesn't deserve one. It doesn't even deserve a "B+." Try more like a "B-".

The sequence is relatively well executed, and has the bonus of leading us into some nice dramatic bits, but we've already seen it all before. It's one of the least original, least interesting bits of action in the whole flick, a reguritated cliche brought to life. It's really about as inspired as a number of the Brosnan climaxes, really - just with a greater sense of brutality and character. Avoiding an exploding "base" would have been a good start to make the finale more notable.

My report card for QUANTUM OF SOLACE's action:

Car Chase: B+
Siena Chase: B+
Boat Chase: C-
Bond vs. Slate: B+
Tosca: A-
Plane Chase and Escape: D-
Perla Fight(s): C+/B-

Compare to my report card for CASINO ROYALE:

Bathroom Fight: A-
Madagascar Chase: A
Miami International: B+
Stairwell Fight: A-
Venice: B+

[DamnCoffee]

My rankings....

Car Chase: A
Siena Chase: C
Bond vs. Slate: C+
Boat Chase: D-
Tosca: A-
Plane Chase/Free Fall: E
Elevator Fight/Escape: A-
Bar Escape: B
Perla De Las Dunas: D-

[Vauxhall]

I really want to feel for Slate, after being stabbed in the neck, thrown through a window and impaled, but I just can't.

But surely you're not supposed to feel for him? Slate is one of "the bad guys", and a hired gun. He tries to kill Bond and our hero wins, therefore we should feel satisfied.

Also, I'm not sure what's going on with all the negativity towards the Siena chase. (Not just referring to you here, Matt). I think it stands alongside the opera sequence as the best piece of action in the movie. My ratings:

Car Chase: B
Siena Chase: A-
Boat Chase: D
Bond vs. Slate: B-
Tosca: A
Plane Chase and Escape: C
Perla Fight(s): B-

[DamnCoffee]

Yeah, but what I mean is, I didn't even wince or anything. Not once did I think, "Oh that must of hurt!" or "Ouch!".

[Harmsway]

Yeah, but what I mean is, I couldn't even wince or anything. Not once did I think, "Oh that must of hurt!" or "Ouch!".

I do... when Bond grabs his hand and it makes that cracking noise (he presumably breaks it), I wince every time.

I do like the Slate/Bond fight. It's fast, brutal, and "horribly efficient." If only other action cues in the film had been so well-executed.

[Vauxhall]

Yeah, but what I mean is, I didn't even wince or anything. Not once did I think, "Oh that must of hurt!" or "Ouch!".

Even when he's been stabbed in the neck, and his eyes are bulging out? Each to their own, but it makes me shudder every time.

[DamnCoffee]

Yeah, but what I mean is, I didn't even wince or anything. Not once did I think, "Oh that must of hurt!" or "Ouch!".

Even when he's been stabbed in the neck, and his eyes are bulging out? Each to their own, but it makes me shudder every time.

Oh, sorry. I must of missed that due to the fast editing.

Nah, seriously though, I can apprectiate what Forster was planning to do with the quick cutting, but personally, I think he failed. I really couldn't feel anything in that scene, all it was, was a fight to me. A very quickly cut fight. The only time I really shuddered in the entire film, was at the end, when Greene got a massive axe impaled in his foot.

[JimmyBond]

I actually get grossed out as Bond is sitting there waiting for Slate to bleed out from both wounds.

[Vauxhall]

Oh, sorry. I must of missed that due to the fast editing.

Nah, seriously though, I can apprectiate what Forster was planning to do with the quick cutting, but personally, I think he failed. I really couldn't feel anything in that scene, all it was, was a fight to me. A very quickly cut fight. The only time I really shuddered in the entire film, was at the end, when Greene got a massive axe impaled in his foot.

When did your opinion of the editing and shakey-cam change? Because when the movie first came out, you didn't consider it a major problem. Has watching on DVD made it worse for you? Because, in my opinion, the editing was harder to follow on the big screen.

[tim partridge]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Marc Forster can not do action, it's as simple as that.

And I'll say it again: watch Monster's Ball and you'll see that Forster can do classic action, and very, very well. For some reason though, he decided to hire the Greengrass/Bourne team and go all out in their direction rather than doing what he'd shown in MB's action, which in my opinion is where the mistake is.

[DamnCoffee]

Oh, sorry. I must of missed that due to the fast editing.

Nah, seriously though, I can apprectiate what Forster was planning to do with the quick cutting, but personally, I think he failed. I really couldn't feel anything in that scene, all it was, was a fight to me. A very quickly cut fight. The only time I really shuddered in the entire film, was at the end, when Greene got a massive axe impaled in his foot.

When did your opinion of the editing and shakey-cam change? Because when the movie first came out, you didn't consider it a major problem. Has watching on DVD made it worse for you? Because, in my opinion, the editing was harder to follow on the big screen.

The edting really isn't much of a problem for me. I was making a cheap, distasteful joke about it.

BUT I can see why people are bothered by it. I can understand what's going on with it, I just wish we could've seen some clearer shots, now and again. The editing on the whole is fine, for me.

Quantum of Solace has changed a lot for me on DVD though, I loved it in the cinema, but watching it on DVD made me recognise it's many flaws.

[Dekard77]

I also never liked M but in this movie her role is defined with a better purpose. Usually I felt she can't manage anything and never knows when to trust her people but in the part where 007 tells that she likes to think that she is his mother made a whole load of sense to me about how interested 007 is protecting Mi5.

Also the editing is fine even on screen but some action scenes were really not necessary. Boat fight and Plane shoot out.

Most people I know told me how they needed to watch this film more than once to get it and I liked that a lot, it may not be traditional but it showed it had depth. Camille is one of the best Bond girls as she gives the role the perfect balance. I liked her the same way I liked Melina.

I think Harry Knowles did a fine review of this movie and it helps you to understand the concept of a new Bond, not Brosnan, not Connery, not Dalton or Moore. It's Craig's 007 and we are meant to see how he handles the role to his strengths which I must say for moment only seems to be getting better. Loved the inflight scene with Mathis and Hotel room walk in with Fields.

Wish Dalton was given a chance like this. He would have been great. Sigh!

[Judo chop]

Avoiding an exploding "base" would have been a good start to make the finale more notable.

My report card for QUANTUM OF SOLACE's action:

Bond vs. Slate: B+
Perla Fight(s): C+/B-

Compare to my report card for CASINO ROYALE:

Bathroom Fight: A-
Stairwell Fight: A-
Venice: B+

A couple curiosities I have about your scores, Harms my man.

1) Is a sinking building that much more original than a burning building? Doesn’t CR’s finale fit nicely into that same category that exploding bases fall under? Even if I gave Venice the advantage (which I just may) I still think the set design of the Perla Hotel more than compensates. Plus, the villains of the CR battle are all pretty characterless and mostly impotent. Bland, faceless nameless goons that Bond really doesn’t seem to have a problem handling. Greene’s fight with Bond has some personality. Definitely not your typical final dukaroo.

2) Why ace the brutal fights in CR but slight the Slate fight? I think the Slate fight should get equal praise for either of those two in CR. I love the progression we get with Bond from the bathroom fight (where consequences feel almost explicitly communicated) to the stairwell fight where Bond seems to have numbed just a bit, to the Slate fight where Bond has all but swallowed any sense of remorse. (All BUT. I see some left in his face as he cleans his wounds.) I do knock it a notch for knocking off Bourne, but awesome is awesome.

Plus, Bond is just soooo efficient. He hasn’t been that cold since he dispatched Dent in DR NO, and then takes it a step or two further. The hand-breaking and pulse-reading are ruthless indeed. Already Bond is in uncharted territory. But it’s that somewhat-uncalled-for stab to the hamstring that gets me! Slate was down. Bond didn’t need to hit the leg as well. He just did ‘cause… well, ‘cause it was simply the path of least resistance.

The slate fight is top-notch.

[Harmsway]

1) Is a sinking building that much more original than a burning building?

To a degree. It's certainly more interesting, especially given how the story sets it up. We're not expecting an explosive show-down like we are in QUANTUM OF SOLACE. I also prefer the aesthetic.

Even if I gave Venice the advantage (which I just may) I still think the set design of the Perla Hotel more than compensates.

I've heard a lot of folks talking about the set design of the Perla de las Dunas hotel. Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of bland, like a poor knock-off of a Ken Adam design, but without any of the really memorable qualities? For me, it's only slightly more interesting than Sanchez' utterly bland base in LICENCE TO KILL.

Plus, the villains of the CR battle are all pretty characterless and mostly impotent. Bland, faceless nameless goons that Bond really doesn’t seem to have a problem handling. Greene’s fight with Bond has some personality. Definitely not your typical final dukaroo.

I actually think that's why I like Venice more. It's not a showdown about Bond facing off with the main villain (I never, ever want to see Craig in a duel with the "main" Bond villain of that flick in any of his subsequent Bond flicks), which is standard fare and was nicely done away with in CASINO ROYALE for something more interesting.

The emphasis of the final action scene isn't on Bond fighting the bad guy/stopping a plot. It's on Vesper, really, and the thugs are just background to that event. It puts a very different spin on things, and that's the proper way to handle a climax in this new era of Bond.

And frankly, I think the choreography is much more interesting during the Venice fight, with such interesting touches as the nail gun and Bond pulling the electric socket off the wall and shocking the guy to death. Even the elevator, while not the most original thing in the world, adds something.

The choreography of the fight with Greene is blandsville, aside from the nicely brutal bit where Greene gets an axe to the foot. When I'd heard about all the stuff about the Greene fight in pre-production (about its brutality, about how Greene was going to fight like a girl, etc.), I was pretty excited... but it's just so forgettable and uninteresting to watch that I find myself tempted to fast-forward it. Same for Camille's fight with the General. Meh.

Why ace the brutal fights in CR but slight the Slate fight?

I like the Slate fight - its sense of brutality is perhaps unparalleled in the Bond franchise - but it's so Bourne-ish in its aesthetic that I can't help but slight it a bit. The fights in CASINO ROYALE felt nowhere near as derivative.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Harmsy, you seriously think Perlas de las Dunas is worse than Sanchez's lair?

If anything, it's a hell of a lot better than the lairs Ken Adam built in the two bookending '70s Bond films (DAF and Moonraker)!

Also, am I the only one who thought the Slate fight seemed to go by quicker on DVD than in the theatre?

[Harmsway]

Harmsy, you seriously think Perlas de las Dunas is worse than Sanchez's lair?

No, I said it was "slightly more interesting" than Sanchez's lair.

If anything, it's a hell of a lot better than the lairs Ken Adam built in the two bookending '70s Bond films (DAF and Moonraker)!

Than DAF's oil tanker? Sure. But better than the lair in MOONRAKER? No flippin' way.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Harmsy, you seriously think Perlas de las Dunas is worse than Sanchez's lair?

No, I said it was "slightly more interesting" than Sanchez's lair.

Same difference.

If anything, it's a hell of a lot better than the lairs Ken Adam built in the two bookending '70s Bond films (DAF and Moonraker)!

Than DAF's oil tanker? Sure. But better than the lair in MOONRAKER? No flippin' way.

Yes flippin' way; it's a freakin' rip-off of Star Wars!

[Harmsway]

Yes flippin' way; it's a freakin' rip-off of Star Wars!

Wait, are we talkin' bout the Moonraker space station or the cool-as-anything Mayanish temple base? Because I assumed we were talking about the latter.

But at any rate, the space station is still infinitely more memorable than the rather forgettable Perla de las Dunas hotel, even if it's not quite as elegantly designed.