29 replies to this topic

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Reading through this wonderful thread, I was wondering, how do you think Dalton's portrayal of 007 stands with regular moviegoers these days?

Too many people seems to have considered him as a "guy who screwed up" during the Brosnan-era, but now that Craig is incredibly popular in the role, I wonder if some people can have changed their attitude against him (those who have not forgotten him, that is. I am convinced there are tons of people out there who would believe James Bond has been played only by Sean Connery, Roger Moore, Pierce Brosnan and Daniel Craig). Dalton essentially did the same thing as Craig 19 years earlier, bringing the character back to his literary roots and making him more human, but I guess audiences were not ready for that kind of tone in the decade where supermen like Schwarzenegger, Stallone and, well, Roger Moore, were what people had gotten used to.

As an example, have any of your friends given his films "second chances" after watching CR and QoS?
I watched The Living Daylights and Licence To Kill with two of my buddies, none of whom had been very fond of Dalton in the past, as a double-bill after seeing QoS in theatres. Both of them admitted they had been wrong about his take on the character, and that he should have done more films (which I obviously agree on). Any similiar experiences, or other examples?

[jaguar007]

Honestly, I don't think the average moviegoer still gives any thought to Timothy Dalton.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Well, you're obviously right about that, thinking about it... It's easy to forget that not everybody are as interested in 007 as I am.

However, let's change it to "general fan", "average Bond-fan" or something like that then, somebody who usually goes to see the films and tends to enjoy them.

[zencat]

I think he's viewed along with Lazenby as one of the unsuccessful Bonds. Of course, I don't see him (or Laz) in that way, but I think that's the general opinion. Maybe less so in the UK where it seems Dalton's realistic approach was respected (or at least understood).

[MkB]

I think he's viewed along with Lazenby as one of the unsuccessful Bonds. Of course, I don't see him (or Laz) in that way, but I think that's the general opinion. Maybe less so in the UK where it seems Dalton's realistic approach was respected (or at least understood).

I agree. From what I hear around me, people generally dismiss Dalton as Bond and consider him as "the guy who screw Bond up" (and that's a shame, since he doesn't deserve it at all). For instance my brother (the average Bond film watcher, but not nearly as much of a Bond nutter as me) generally refers to him as the "catastrophic Bond".

The only exception was a woman who told me that she had lost interest in Bond after Timothy Dalton. The fact is, she was not a Bond fan, and that may be the reason.

Anyway, I must say that I didn't give much thought about Dalton's Bond either, and after reading so many praises on CBn about his performance, I gave his films a second chance.

[Royal Dalton]

If you believe the press, he's pretty much the James Bond equivalent of a leper.

[jaguar007]

There are some people who just never liked him, but I believe there are even more people who never gave his films a chance - never watched them.

I'm one of those people who pined for Dalton during the Brosnan era. However I don't think Craig's portrayal of Bond has done anything to warm the public's heart for Dalton. While the intensity and seriousness of character is similar, Craig has a much better hand on the humor and sex appeal of the character than Dalton did. If the public is warming up to Dalton's Bond at all, it probably has more to do with his role in Hot Fuzz than anything Craig has done.

[Turn]

People are slowly coming around to respect Dalton's portrayal a little more, somewhat like with Lazenby. But no matter how many new converts they win, both Dalton and Lazenby will still likely be in the bottom two, although I rank Dalton in the top three.

You still have a lot of mainstream publications like Entertainment Weekly that still take the low road with Dalton put-downs, so it may be like that for a while.

[Christopher006]

Dalton and Lazenby are strictly for cultists.

Dalton has pretty much been forgotten by the general public. It is kind of a shame because I actually like Dalton's films despite their flaws; The Living Daylights has weak villains and Licence To Kill is too dark and depressing. I do like their sophisticated and well written plots, and the action scenes in both films are great.

[Hitmonk]

Only last week I was talking to a friend who can be considered as a "General Filmgoer" - he has seen the Bond films (and loved QoS) but leaves it at that and has never read any of the books. He looked very bemused when I informed that my favourite Bond was Dalton - just didn't make any sense to him.

[juepucta]

I never disliked him. Not at all. I grey up with the very end of the Moore years and then Dalton. I later learned by reading some of the books that his portrayal was closer to the literary Bond. Moore on the other hand is symptomatic of the "cartooning" of the series - in fact a lot of people dislike going back to realism because they think of Bond as Benny Hill with a gun.

So, where would i rank him amongst the six? Not sure... I rank each actor for all the movies they did. So for example Diamonds doesn't quite completely ruin my perception of Connery. Brosnan had a couple of slightly above average ones but the utter crap in the end weighs him down.

After saying that: i put Moore at the end. Brosnan in 5th. Connery in the first place. I love OHMSS so Lazenby is 2 for me. That leaves Craig and Dalton. Dalton is #4 for me.

-G.

[0012]

Hey, he was referenced in I Love You, Man...see my post in the spoof section.

[sir cedric]

Reactions amongst fans may depend on age. Many of my friends and yours sincerely (date of birth 1972) grew up with Roger Moore (Octopussy, AVTAK) and later Timothy Dalton. Some of us had to get used to the new James Bond back then (1987) and several people involved in TLD were quite harsh in their comments on Roger. That did not help Tim's acceptation amongst 'my' generation, although I very much liked both of his movies. During the nineties several of us got nostalgic and changed our views of his portrayal. In several polls he nearly equals Pierce Brosnan's share of the vote and currently many regard his movies as superior to (for example) Die Another Day.

Just my 2 cents.

Cedric

[jaguar007]

On the flip side, I also grew up in the Moore era (born 1968). I was totally taken with Dalton from the first scene of TLD. TO this day I still rank TLD as one of my 5 favorite Bond films.

[broadshoulder]

ITV seem to be showing the lesser known Bonds ie OHMSS, LTK, FYEO and TLD at the moment and they are getting good ratings. So good in fact to keep up the momentum they are showing Harry Potter to keep those who have tuned in. So I think over this side of the pond he is not a pariah and is a respected actor generally.

America I can see forgetting about him as they only deal in large shapes such as Connery, Moore and currently Craig.

Interestingly TLD is my ten year old nieces favourite. When I asked her what she thought of Dalton - oh very good, rather scary...

Tim Dalton is just liked over here anyway.

[dee-bee-five]

Moore on the other hand is symptomatic of the "cartooning" of the series - in fact a lot of people dislike going back to realism because they think of Bond as Benny Hill with a gun.

It's all subjective, of course, but I think that's a terrible way to describe Roger Moore's contribution to the series. A series that would not have lasted long enough to be able to bring us Timothy Dalton and Daniel Craig, I would suggest, without Roger Moore.

And, for the record, I adore the course the producers have set out on in returning to the spirit of Fleming - as CR and, especially. QoS do - but that does not dim my appreciation of what Roger Moore brought to the role.

[Zorin Industries]

..and had Roger Moore not done the role (which he did not 'cartoon' any more than the 1970's cartooned themselves) there would have been no Timothy Dalton as there would have been no series.

[juepucta]

Oh i completely agree with you two. Don't get me wrong. In fact i think the downward slide started in earnest with Diamonds.

I just like him the least.

-G.

[tdalton]

And, for the record, I adore the course the producers have set out on in returning to the spirit of Fleming - as CR and, especially. QoS do - but that does not dim my appreciation of what Roger Moore brought to the role.

That's exactly how I see it. Just taking the comedic approach to Bond filmmaking at face value, I'm not a really big fan of it. But, with that said, Roger Moore is just so talented, charismatic, and just flat out terrific at portraying Bond within that kind of a film, that it's just about impossible not to like it, and that's the reason I think that his films, for the most part, succeed. With anyone else in the role playing exactly that same type of Bond character, I don't think it would work, but it works very well with Roger Moore in the role.

As good as the Craig and Dalton films are (and they are, IMO, the best in the series, alongside Connery's first two efforts), I would have to say that the most fun movies in the franchise are those that star Roger Moore.

[sharpshooter]

I would have to say that the most fun movies in the franchise are those that star Roger Moore.

Most definitely.

While he’s not that cruel looking killer Fleming describes, Moore exudes the style, charm and sophistication aspects of Bond in an irresistible manner.

[tdalton]

I would have to say that the most fun movies in the franchise are those that star Roger Moore.

Most definitely.

While he’s not that cruel looking killer Fleming describes, Moore exudes the style, charm and sophistication aspects of Bond in an irresistible manner.

Completely agreed.

Although, I have to admit, there is a part of me that would have loved to have seen Roger Moore make an attempt at a LTK/QoS type of Bond film, with Bond out for some type of revenge. It might have brought a whole new resonance to the concept that the other films have lacked simply because Moore's Bond was the most "relaxed" (if that's the right word) of the Bonds. There were glimpses of what kind of experience that might have been, such as Bond's interrogation of Orlov on the train in Octopussy. It might not have worked on screen, but I've always wondered what it would have been like.

[dee-bee-five]

Although, I have to admit, there is a part of me that would have loved to have seen Roger Moore make an attempt at a LTK/QoS type of Bond film, with Bond out for some type of revenge. It might have brought a whole new resonance to the concept that the other films have lacked simply because Moore's Bond was the most "relaxed" (if that's the right word) of the Bonds. There were glimpses of what kind of experience that might have been, such as Bond's interrogation of Orlov on the train in Octopussy. It might not have worked on screen, but I've always wondered what it would have been like.

I think it could have worked. Moore always seemed much tougher in The Saint and the Bond-Orlov scene in Octopussy is, for my money, one of his best in his entire 7 picture run. One scene that often gets overlooked, too, is the way he shoots Stromberg in the groin in TSWLM and then keeps on shooting. That's always struck me as being deliciously nasty; not just for Rog's Bond but for all the Bonds.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

I think he's viewed along with Lazenby as one of the unsuccessful Bonds. Of course, I don't see him (or Laz) in that way, but I think that's the general opinion. Maybe less so in the UK where it seems Dalton's realistic approach was respected (or at least understood).

Good to hear he is appreciated in the UK.
I remember watching Pierce promote one of the films on Letterman, where David would show photos of all the previous Bonds. Connery, Moore and Dalton got applause, but Lazenby got this kind of mocking laughter...

I agree. From what I hear around me, people generally dismiss Dalton as Bond and consider him as "the guy who screw Bond up" (and that's a shame, since he doesn't deserve it at all). For instance my brother (the average Bond film watcher, but not nearly as much of a Bond nutter as me) generally refers to him as the "catastrophic Bond".

If he re-watched the Dalton films now, in the time when Craig is a slightly similiar Bond, maybe his opinion could differ?

If you believe the press, he's pretty much the James Bond equivalent of a leper.

Well, I hope that depends on what part of the press we are talking about. Tabloids will trash any Bond whose movies doesn't break records, in that they are populist and rarely look at talent (if Craig had been a flop with audiences, his reviews would probably not have been anywhere near as good as they are, I suspect). Film mags seems kinder to Timothy. An Empire journalist even stated in some issue that he might have been the best Bond.

There are some people who just never liked him, but I believe there are even more people who never gave his films a chance - never watched them.

I'm one of those people who pined for Dalton during the Brosnan era. However I don't think Craig's portrayal of Bond has done anything to warm the public's heart for Dalton. While the intensity and seriousness of character is similar, Craig has a much better hand on the humor and sex appeal of the character than Dalton did. If the public is warming up to Dalton's Bond at all, it probably has more to do with his role in Hot Fuzz than anything Craig has done.

I don't know... I always thought Dalton handled the humour they gave him well. It's more subdued than anything from the Moore-era, but I like it. Way better than the mostly awful and pointless one-liners poor Brosnan had to struggle with.

Only last week I was talking to a friend who can be considered as a "General Filmgoer" - he has seen the Bond films (and loved QoS) but leaves it at that and has never read any of the books. He looked very bemused when I informed that my favourite Bond was Dalton - just didn't make any sense to him.

I've experienced pretty much the same thing...

On the flip side, I also grew up in the Moore era (born 1968). I was totally taken with Dalton from the first scene of TLD. TO this day I still rank TLD as one of my 5 favorite Bond films.

Both of his films are in my top . I love TLD, it's one of the most genuinely exciting of the series IMO. After that first scene introduction of his, it amazes me how not more people were taken with him. One of the best openings of the series IMO.

Reactions amongst fans may depend on age. Many of my friends and yours sincerely (date of birth 1972) grew up with Roger Moore (Octopussy, AVTAK) and later Timothy Dalton. Some of us had to get used to the new James Bond back then (1987) and several people involved in TLD were quite harsh in their comments on Roger. That did not help Tim's acceptation amongst 'my' generation, although I very much liked both of his movies.

Being born the year Dalton made his last Bond movie, I didn't know any of this. Do you remember any of the comments about Roger?

ITV seem to be showing the lesser known Bonds ie OHMSS, LTK, FYEO and TLD at the moment and they are getting good ratings. So good in fact to keep up the momentum they are showing Harry Potter to keep those who have tuned in. So I think over this side of the pond he is not a pariah and is a respected actor generally.

Fantastic. All of them are among the best, IMO. "Nobody" remembers FYEO, though, in my experience. Even after having seen it. However, it took me several viewings to get how damn good that film is, and maybe that could be the case with the Dalton films for many people too.

[O.H.M.S.S.]

I think general audiences rather like Timothy Dalton in the role (if they know of him). Certainly with Daniel Craig now playing Bond pretty close to Dalton's interpretation.
But even before that. My newspaper wrote a whole article about Bond back in 2002 when Die Another Day was about to come out. They ranked the Bond actors like this: first Sean Connery (no surprises here), second Timothy Dalton (because he made Bond smart and tough again), third Pierce Brosnan (I believe they stated he wasn't bad but didn't leave his own mark on the character), fourth George Lazenby (he should have made more to leave a better impression) and fifth Roger Moore (a clown in the role, they said that by the time of Octopussy the franchise was as good as dead).
So pretty positive about Tim Dalton, stating he was the best since Connery. Now they are positive on Daniel Craig as well.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Nice to see a paper giving him some recognition (he's never mentioned in Norwegian newspapers, that's for sure, where people seem unable to tell there's been other Bonds than Connery and Moore).

Off topic, but I really disagree with them about Moore and Octopussy. That is a smashingly entertaining film in every way, Tarzan-yell or not.

[Turn]

Off topic, but I really disagree with them about Moore and Octopussy. That is a smashingly entertaining film in every way, Tarzan-yell or not.

Completely agree with you. OP did great box office against Return of the Jedi, Superman III and a lot of other heavyweight films in the summer of '83, not to mention making more at the box office than rival film NSNA.

AVTAK is another matter.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

Off topic, but I really disagree with them about Moore and Octopussy. That is a smashingly entertaining film in every way, Tarzan-yell or not.

Completely agree with you. OP did great box office against Return of the Jedi, Superman III and a lot of other heavyweight films in the summer of '83, not to mention making more at the box office than rival film NSNA.

Great, I'm glad to hear that. Hopefully, it made more money than the silly Superman III. Would have been the perfect swansong for Roger. Alas...

[Joey Bond]

"Who's your favorite Bond?"
"Daniel Craig and Timothy Dalton"
"Timothy who?"
"The guy after Moore and before Brosnan"
"...."

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Off topic, but I really disagree with them about Moore and Octopussy. That is a smashingly entertaining film in every way, Tarzan-yell or not.

Completely agree with you. OP did great box office against Return of the Jedi, Superman III and a lot of other heavyweight films in the summer of '83, not to mention making more at the box office than rival film NSNA.

Great, I'm glad to hear that. Hopefully, it made more money than the silly Superman III. Would have been the perfect swansong for Roger. Alas...

Indeed. Moore could've left the series on "an all time high". However, I would not have wanted Dalton to start his tenure in the role with A View to a Kill. At least not without a massive screenplay rewrite/overhaul prior to going into production.

[The Ghost Who Walks]

"Who's your favorite Bond?"
"Daniel Craig and Timothy Dalton"
"Timothy who?"
"The guy after Moore and before Brosnan"
"...."

You've got no idea how many times I've had that conversation.


PrinceKamalKhan:

Indeed. Moore could've left the series on "an all time high". However, I would not have wanted Dalton to start his tenure in the role with A View to a Kill. At least not without a massive screenplay rewrite/overhaul prior to going into production.

I don't know, I can't help feeling AVTAK would have been a much more intense film with Timothy in the lead... They would probably have re-written the script a bit, to maybe make Bond more physical (less "grandpa-like") in it and make the "race against time" that the DVD-cover tells about a lot more intense. Off course, this is only in my head, but you never know. I do think it could have been a much better film with only minor alterations and a lead actor who isn't 90 years old.