17 replies to this topic

[MarkA]

Driving back and forth to work these last few weeks I have been listening to audio books of the Fleming novels. The one thing that has struck me (and this really came to the fore when I was listening to the Blades sequence in Moonraker) is one of the things that is now lacking in the later films as opposed to the earlier movies is the high-class living and snobbery that Fleming really evokes in his writing. I feel it was inherent in the earlier films. The sequence where Bond arrives at the Casino in Thunderball is wonderfully evocative of Fleming’s world. Despite really liking Craig's interpretation I still feel there has been a certain dumbing down of the characters class. Am I wrong, or if right do you think it is deliberate to attract a certain audience, or maybe just a sign of the times. Or even just plain and simple political correctness.

[Safari Suit]

I do think excessive snobbery and bourgeois indulgence could be off putting to some audiences.

[spynovelfan]

But Bond himself isn't really a snob in Fleming's books. In that Blades scene, for instance, he's very much an outsider. An exception is his looking down on 'Nash' in FRWL for the wrong tie knot and the wrong wine with fish, but I can't think of other instances and it's not pervasive. High-class locations and cars and so on are pervasive in the books, but then they are in Craig's era, too. He's at a posh casino, wearing evening wear, etc. In Qos, he even insists on upgrading his hotel despite it contradicting the cover that's been arranged for him.

[MarkA]

But Bond himself isn't really a snob in Fleming's books. In that Blades scene, for instance, he's very much an outsider. An exception is his looking down on 'Nash' in FRWL for the wrong tie knot and the wrong wine with fish, but I can't think of other instances and it's not pervasive. High-class locations and cars and so on are pervasive in the books, but then they are in Craig's era, too. He's at a posh casino, wearing evening wear, etc. In Qos, he even insists on upgrading his hotel despite it contradicting the cover that's been arranged for him.

I agree Bond himself is not necessarily a snob (though he does at times have extreme views, which probably reflect Feming's). It more the world Bond operates in. I feel it has been dumbed down, softened.

[Mr_Wint]

Driving back and forth to work these last few weeks I have been listening to audio books of the Fleming novels. The one thing that has struck me (and this really came to the fore when I was listening to the Blades sequence in Moonraker) is one of the things that is now lacking in the later films as opposed to the earlier movies is the high-class living and snobbery that Fleming really evokes in his writing. I feel it was inherent in the earlier films. The sequence where Bond arrives at the Casino in Thunderball is wonderfully evocative of Fleming’s world. Despite really liking Craig's interpretation I still feel there has been a certain dumbing down of the characters class. Am I wrong, or if right do you think it is deliberate to attract a certain audience, or maybe just a sign of the times. Or even just plain and simple political correctness.

I do think it is a deliberate move by the filmmakers in an attempt to attract a younger generation. His working class background and the somewhat ludicrous idea that an inexperienced 'Bond' isn't well-dressed was definitively invented for this purpose.

To make Bond contemporary they have to make him a little bit more dark and brutual, since that is what the audience want these days. However, for some reason, EON seems to think that a dark and brutal hero can not be combined with high-class living. So maybe that is why they tone it down a little bit.

[ACE]

I absolutely agree. They did simplify the novels when they adapted them to films. They did try to make the character more politically acceptable: they got rid of his scar, heavy smoking and drinking habit, occasional drug use, the less savoury views on gender and race, a more general, less idiosyncratic dress sense and made him a more global, less parochial character. They did try to go for as large an audience as possible. They did want to reach beyond Fleming's mass global readership. Agreed absolutely, this did happen in 1961 when Dr No geared up for production...

[Scrambled Eggs]

Fleming's Bond is posh but I wouldnt say he was a snob.

I'm thinking of his discussion with the teddy boy taxi driver in Thunderball, the scenes in Harlem in LALD... from memory, theres nothing condescending there. If anything there's a certain amount of empathy.

I suppose you could argue that Fleming was aware of his audience just as the filmmakers are. He wanted to sell books and so, even while showing his readers glimpses of the sweet life, he wouldnt want to alienate them by putting a snob at the centre of things.

[David Schofield]

Perhaps THE most snobbish Bond moment is that taken from the limited unused notes of Fleming in which Bond visualises Brits waking up, breakfasting, listening to the radio, getting ready for the daily work - and wishing to never be like that himself.

Snobby elitist bastard!

[Byron]

Driving back and forth to work these last few weeks I have been listening to audio books of the Fleming novels. The one thing that has struck me (and this really came to the fore when I was listening to the Blades sequence in Moonraker) is one of the things that is now lacking in the later films as opposed to the earlier movies is the high-class living and snobbery that Fleming really evokes in his writing. I feel it was inherent in the earlier films. The sequence where Bond arrives at the Casino in Thunderball is wonderfully evocative of Fleming’s world. Despite really liking Craig's interpretation I still feel there has been a certain dumbing down of the characters class. Am I wrong, or if right do you think it is deliberate to attract a certain audience, or maybe just a sign of the times. Or even just plain and simple political correctness.

I concur with the majority. Bond is a conisieur of the finer things in life and not an outright elitist snob. We still see glimpses of it in the films eg eating caviar in CR. However i would definately not mind seeing heavier drinking and the occasional smoke. And in the consumer branded society we live in, it is hard to stay ahead of the masses.

About the audio books, how are they? Does one person read all parts? Is every word from the books in there?

I have a lengthy drive to and from work and they might form an interesting distraction to the drudgery of the morning peak hour.

[Sniperscope]

The impression I always got from the books was that Fleming was a "snob" but Bond was not always so...
Bond always seemed to me to be a bit of a parvenu who had been "trained up" so to speak to understand and affect the ways of the upper class, but was always a bit of an outsider. I think it was MR (maybe someone will correct me?) in which he said he had only two suits, the one he wore most commonly was an old, out of date houndstooth...
Fleming also wrote that his well-dressed spy about town wore short-sleeve shirts under his suit which I guess most men know is a massive fashion faux pas! This would tend to make Bond less snobbish...
The films have tended to make him more of a fashion plate than the books implied...
In terms of food and drink though, Bond was definitely a snob though but in the best sense of appreciating only the finest!

Edited by Sniperscope, 09 February 2009 - 10:33 AM.

[plankattack]

I agree with those who say that Bond isn't written as a snob, but there are moments when his tastes and thoughts reflect societal attitudes within British society - a touch of class consciousness and a general unawareness of those from other shores.

There are moments when the writing is, by today's politically correct standards, almost racist; not to excuse it, but it's as much a reflection of the era.Suspicion/lack of knowledge etc rather than out-and-out racism.

I actually think that film-Bond is more of an elitist/snob - SC's Bond definitely looks down his nose at people, in most cases foreigners or nouveau riche(FRWL, TB), while Sir Rog's Bond just oozes the notion that he's smarter than everyone else and he knows it. Whether or not this classifies as snobbery I don't know, but it's distinct from the more everyman nature of TD, Brozza, and DC.

[ACE]

I agree with those who say that Bond isn't written as a snob, but there are moments when his tastes and thoughts reflect societal attitudes within British society - a touch of class consciousness and a general unawareness of those from other shores.

There are moments when the writing is, by today's politically correct standards, almost racist; not to excuse it, but it's as much a reflection of the era....

[pgram]

The impression I always got from the books was that Fleming was a "snob" but Bond was not always so...
Bond always seemed to me to be a bit of a parvenu who had been "trained up" so to speak to understand and affect the ways of the upper class, but was always a bit of an outsider. I think it was MR (maybe someone will correct me?) in which he said he had only two suits, the one he wore most commonly was an old, out of date houndstooth...
Fleming also wrote that his well-dressed spy about town wore short-sleeve shirts under his suit which I guess most men know is a massive fashion faux pas! This would tend to make Bond less snobbish...
The films have tended to make him more of a fashion plate than the books implied...
In terms of food and drink though, Bond was definitely a snob though but in the best sense of appreciating only the finest!

Owning only two suits, just as the old suitcase, or the old Bentley is a matter of Britishness, a mentality that has almost eclipsed nowadays. A proper British gentleman would never wear fancy new clothes with big brand names. It 'd be just vulgar, chavvy in today's terminology. Remember Drax in MR? On the other hand, good clothes, when old and worn, reveal that the owner has been in the league of people who own this kind of clothes for a long time. I guess there is a bit of snobbism there, but not personal, rather a nation's old mentality.

Don't forget that, as revealed in CR, Bond's love of good food is a way to amuse his lonleliness when on a mission. He came to enjoy the little luxuries because he had to spend too much time alone. When in good company (eg. with Leiter in LALD), he just joined the party. And of course, all of his luxurious lifestyle was on an expenses account. And he knew that.

[Revelator]

The sequence where Bond arrives at the Casino in Thunderball is wonderfully evocative of Fleming’s world... I still feel there has been a certain dumbing down of the characters class. Am I wrong, or if right do you think it is deliberate to attract a certain audience, or maybe just a sign of the times.

Fleming's clubland world in many ways is a vanished one. Britain itself is a much different society in terms of class and society. And standards of what is lowbrow, middlebrow or highbrow have also collapsed. In QoS for example Bond attends a party where there's a DJ spinning records. This might be unacceptable except for the fact that high-class parties do use DJs--it's become a fashionable thing. Fleming's Bond still operated in a world where people in his class wouldn't listen to pop music at parties.

In Qos, he even insists on upgrading his hotel despite it contradicting the cover that's been arranged for him.

Funnily enough, I was reminded of how Bond downgraded his hotel in FRWL, because he was sick of Hilton-style luxury places. It reminds me of how important the war between Bond's puritan and epicurean sides is in Fleming's version of the character.

[Mr_Wint]

Without any doubt whatsoever, Fleming introduced far more luxury in Bond's life compared to what you might expect for a real spy. Even if the times are changing, I feel that the filmmakers should stay faithful to this because it gives them an excellent opportunity to separate Bond from all other actionmovies out there. Bond's exclusive taste also works well with the rest of his personality; his attention for details and, maybe, a desire to live each day like it is his last.

[MarkA]

Some really interesting replies. I guess what I was getting at was the general feeling of high class snobbery that pervades the books. I am aware that Bond operates above this and any many respects abhors it, which I suspect so did Fleming. But this clubland life style is still very much to fore in the early films. Maybe as many have suggested it is just a sign of the times and things have moved on. Incidentally the unabridged audio books by blackstone audio are superb.

[Byron]

Some really interesting replies. I guess what I was getting at was the general feeling of high class snobbery that pervades the books. I am aware that Bond operates above this and any many respects abhors it, which I suspect so did Fleming. But this clubland life style is still very much to fore in the early films. Maybe as many have suggested it is just a sign of the times and things have moved on. Incidentally the unabridged audio books by blackstone audio are superb.

Excuse my ignorance but are there any "exclusive, by invitation only" clubs like Blades, still in existance today in the UK?

[Jim]

Some really interesting replies. I guess what I was getting at was the general feeling of high class snobbery that pervades the books. I am aware that Bond operates above this and any many respects abhors it, which I suspect so did Fleming. But this clubland life style is still very much to fore in the early films. Maybe as many have suggested it is just a sign of the times and things have moved on. Incidentally the unabridged audio books by blackstone audio are superb.

Excuse my ignorance but are there any "exclusive, by invitation only" clubs like Blades, still in existance today in the UK?

As an example

http://www.garrickclub.co.uk/

...it would be better that ten unobjectionable men should be excluded than one terrible bore should be admitted...

Bit like this place, then.

Insofar as clubs like Blades are concerned, I always rather fancied being a member of The Junior Ganymede. Or, in my more grumpy moods*, The Diogenes.

*can last quite a long time