54 replies to this topic

[eddychaput]

There's no getting away from the fact that James Bond is curiously passive in the second half of Goldfinger. Possibly more passive than any other action hero in film history.

But, of course, no-one has ever done passivity better or more stylishly...

Where do you/others rate Goldfinger v Q0S?

Oh my, don't tell me QOS is sneaking into the Goldfinger thread...

Alright: Godlfigner would be in my top 10, although not my top 5. I really like it, but there are maybe a couple details about it that shut it out from my top 5 elite Bonds. I think I had it at 8 or 9.

I'd have to look at my list again (whiches changes everyday mind you) but I think I had QOS at 16th or 15th. It does some things very well, but there was too much that disappointed me for me to really embrace it. It's not bottom 5 material (those ones really suck.) but I left the theatre in a 'Uh...I'm not so sure...' kind of mood.

So, yeah, QOS definitely a few steps behind Goldfinger in my record book.

[Daddy Bond]

There's no getting away from the fact that James Bond is curiously passive in the second half of Goldfinger. Possibly more passive than any other action hero in film history.

But, of course, no-one has ever done passivity better or more stylishly...

Indeed. He finally is active at Fort Knox, but even then someone has to save Bond's skin. Not a criticism of the film necessarily, as Goldfinger is one of my favorites. It currently lies as my 4th or 5th favorite Bond film (depending on what mood I'm in on any given day).

Oh, I rank QOS above GF. QOS is definitely my 2nd favorite Bond film, with only TSWLM taking the lead.

[dee-bee-five]

There's no getting away from the fact that James Bond is curiously passive in the second half of Goldfinger. Possibly more passive than any other action hero in film history.

But, of course, no-one has ever done passivity better or more stylishly...

Where do you/others rate Goldfinger v Q0S?

While I would deffo rate QoS above GF, I should add that if we're talking about the most stylish Bond film, it would be a much, much closer call. For me, GF is one of the most stylish popular movies of the 60s. Its narrative is flawed, but it's the essence of 60s cool.

[Safari Suit]

I didn't enjoy my viewing of QOS any less than any of my viewings of GF certainly, but it's difficult to compare the two; GF is by far the most iconic Bond movie, and it has been so for more years than I've been alive.

[dee-bee-five]

I didn't enjoy my viewing of QOS any less than any of my viewings of GF certainly, but it's difficult to compare the two; GF is by far the most iconic Bond movie, and it has been so for more years than I've been alive.

Y'know, that's one of the problems with GF now. It comes with such baggage of expectation for anyone now seeing it for the first time, that disappointment is almost inevitable. As someone else wrote recently on CBn, you really have to try and put yourself back to 1964 (I was but a babe) and imagine what it was like to audiences seeing it brand new, before it became regarded as a classic blueprint for the series. But it's not easy.

[Safari Suit]

This is true; I'm not sure if the icoicism of Goldfinger gives it an advantage or a disadvantage over QOS, but I do feel it makes them difficult to compare.

[plankattack]

For me, GF is one of the most stylish popular movies of the 60s. Its narrative is flawed, but it's the essence of 60s cool.

I think it's next to impossible to compare films made more than ten years apart - cinematic tastes and styles change rapidly, that comparing GF with anything other than the films that directly precede and follow it is unfair. On all of them.

But DB makes a great point. GF does have plotholes as big as a house, but GF isn't about plot. It's existence is to embody style - it is an advertisement for cool, as much as it is an attempt to tell a story.

Bond's influence on what goes on around him during the second half of the film really isn't the point. He is at whim of events that surround him, but I don't feel that's a narrative crime. Not when everything is done with such panache. SC is cool, Goldfinger is cool, Pussy is hip, Fort Knox looks terrific, and why are all those pilots in wonderbra-enhanced jumpsuits?

If GF has a fault, it's that it's almost satisfied with being a sassy, supercool, vehicle for its stylish, suave hero - unlike FRWL (which is a well-conceived spy thriller as much as it's a "Bond" film), it doesn't aspire to be anything more than an advertisement for its character. Funny, slick, sharp to look at, but with style masquerading as substance.

It is what it is and for that I enjoy it. In fact the only problem I have with the second half of the film is the way everyone falls down when they're gassed. But that's just me!!

[RJJB]

The point about everyone falling down when gassed is valid. Every time I watch it, you can tell that the soldiers were not definitely trained stunt players.
However, from the point of view of PG's Flying Circus, everyone is reacting exactly as they are supposed to, and as they fly by, they really can not perceive the fakery below.

[HildebrandRarity]

...but why cut it so fine with the dirty bomb?

Why not move in as soon as the bomb is unloaded off the chopper instead of waiting until it's in the vault?

Why risk your country's economy and currency status like that?

[dogmanstar]

I didn't enjoy my viewing of QOS any less than any of my viewings of GF certainly, but it's difficult to compare the two; GF is by far the most iconic Bond movie, and it has been so for more years than I've been alive.

Y'know, that's one of the problems with GF now. It comes with such baggage of expectation for anyone now seeing it for the first time, that disappointment is almost inevitable. As someone else wrote recently on CBn, you really have to try and put yourself back to 1964 (I was but a babe) and imagine what it was like to audiences seeing it brand new, before it became regarded as a classic blueprint for the series. But it's not easy.

That's why GF is required viewing, dare I say, a pre-requisite, for watching the other Bond films. It was one of the first I saw on VHS in the late '80s (having seen a few of the Moores in the theater) and it GF just blew me away! And I think it still holds up very well today.

[dee-bee-five]

For me, GF is one of the most stylish popular movies of the 60s. Its narrative is flawed, but it's the essence of 60s cool.

I think it's next to impossible to compare films made more than ten years apart - cinematic tastes and styles change rapidly, that comparing GF with anything other than the films that directly precede and follow it is unfair. On all of them.

I agree absolutely. It's even more absurd to compare box office takings, as others have done, because even allowing for inflation one cannot compare like-with-like. However, I was asked to make the comparison, so I tried as fairly as I could...

The point about everyone falling down when gassed is valid. Every time I watch it, you can tell that the soldiers were not definitely trained stunt players.
However, from the point of view of PG's Flying Circus, everyone is reacting exactly as they are supposed to, and as they fly by, they really can not perceive the fakery below.

I agree. Wooden they may be, but maybe they're just behaving as real US soldiers told to pretend to be gassed would carry out the order! It's certainly never bothered me as much as it seems to do others.

[Major Tallon]

...but why cut it so fine with the dirty bomb?

Why not move in as soon as the bomb is unloaded off the chopper instead of waiting until it's in the vault?

Why risk your country's economy and currency status like that?

Good to have you raise more questions, Hildy. I've enjoyed our little discussions.

The American authorities would have seen the helicopter flying in and would have known from Pussy Galore that this was the planned delivery method for the bomb. Still, they couldn't be sure the bomb was aboard, and they couldn't discount the possibility that Goldfinger had used the helicopter as a decoy, until their radiation detector confirmed the bomb's arrival. Once they were confident that the bomb was on the ground, they'd have wanted to be sure that it had been offloaded, so that it couldn't just be flown out when the attack began. There were no soldiers in a position to give an actual signal, so they waited for the radiation level to rise. Further, they tried to employ "commando tactics" for fear that a large-scale assault would prompt Goldfinger to detonate the bomb in response or make a getaway possible.

Ideally, they wouldn't have wanted the bomb to be placed inside the gold vault itself, but it's far from clear that Pussy Galore would have known that part of the plan, or that Goldfinger had the combination to the vault. The Army might have figured that, once the bomb was on the ground, there was nothing to lose, and possibly much to gain, by waiting until the bomb was beyond easy evacuation.

[HildebrandRarity]

...but why cut it so fine with the dirty bomb?

Why not move in as soon as the bomb is unloaded off the chopper instead of waiting until it's in the vault?

Why risk your country's economy and currency status like that?

Good to have you raise more questions, Hildy. I've enjoyed our little discussions.

There were no soldiers in a position to give an actual signal, so they waited for the radiation level to rise. Further, they tried to employ "commando tactics" for fear that a large-scale assault would prompt Goldfinger to detonate the bomb in response or make a getaway possible.

Happy to oblige, Major.

One would have thought that the CIA and Army would have had a commando team (with gas masks) located nearer (but out of site of) the main gate in an ambush position ready to attack commando style - as well as with camouflaged snipers in the trees - as soon as the bomb was a 'reasonable' distance away from the chopper, thus avoiding the risk of the bomb going into the vault, non?

[Simon]

The plot's better, but the pace falls apart a bit once he hits the USA.

A fault coincidentally common to all Bond films once landing in the US.

[Scottlee]

There's no getting away from the fact that James Bond is curiously passive in the second half of Goldfinger. Possibly more passive than any other action hero in film history.

But, of course, no-one has ever done passivity better or more stylishly...

Where do you/others rate Goldfinger v Q0S?

]

I would choose Goldfinger over QOS but the latter currently has the disadvantage of having not been given a second inspection on dvd.

[Mr. Blofeld]

The plot's better, but the pace falls apart a bit once he hits the USA.

A fault coincidentally common to all Bond films once landing in the US.

Even LALD, which brings Bond to the US very early on?

[HildebrandRarity]

The plot's better, but the pace falls apart a bit once he hits the USA.

A fault coincidentally common to all Bond films once landing in the US.

Even LALD, which brings Bond to the US very early on?

I wouldn't want to speak for him but I think Simon was mainly thinking of Goldfinger, DAF, AVTAK and LTK, all four of which, funnily, deal with a meglomaniac cornering a specific market.

I doubt he'd included CR in that list, though.

[DR76]

He wasn't going to kill them. He wanted them to join him. But then they proved to be unimpressed, unconvinced and less-than-marveled with the supreme genius of his plot as he unveiled it to them.

Irritated with their doubt and now unsure of their worth, not to mention his pride snubbed, he decided, "I'll do this myself" and offs 'em.

I believe that you are in error. Most of the Mafia gangsters were impressed by Goldfinger's plans and had agreed to join him. Only one gangster - Mr. Solo - thought the Fort Knox plan was screwy. Goldfinger sent him on his way, instructing Oddjob to kill him. Then he had the other gangsters - who did agree to his plan - gassed to death.

If you think that the second half of Goldfinger is weak, it's because you are looking for an standard action movie. I like Goldfinger because it's a top-notch, intelligent James Bond movie.

You consider GOLDFINGER to have an intelligent script? Hmm . . . to each his own.

A fault coincidentally common to all Bond films once landing in the US.

You're blaming a faulty plot on the U.S. locations, instead of the screenwriters?

Edited by DR76, 05 February 2009 - 10:58 PM.

[dee-bee-five]

You consider GOLDFINGER to have an intelligent script? Hmm . . . to each his own.

I'm not convinced that a script co-written by Paul Dehn and which impressed Pauline Kael - neither exactly a dumbo - can really be regarded as anything else.

[Mr_Wint]

GF vs QOS is a gigantic drop in terms of quality. IMO, there's no competition whatsoever, none.

#6 Goldfinger
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#20 Quantum of Solace

[Major Tallon]

...but why cut it so fine with the dirty bomb?

Why not move in as soon as the bomb is unloaded off the chopper instead of waiting until it's in the vault?

Why risk your country's economy and currency status like that?

Good to have you raise more questions, Hildy. I've enjoyed our little discussions.

There were no soldiers in a position to give an actual signal, so they waited for the radiation level to rise. Further, they tried to employ "commando tactics" for fear that a large-scale assault would prompt Goldfinger to detonate the bomb in response or make a getaway possible.

Happy to oblige, Major.

One would have thought that the CIA and Army would have had a commando team (with gas masks) located nearer (but out of site of) the main gate in an ambush position ready to attack commando style - as well as with camouflaged snipers in the trees - as soon as the bomb was a 'reasonable' distance away from the chopper, thus avoiding the risk of the bomb going into the vault, non?

While I've enjoyed our longer debates, I think I'm going to have to cave a good bit on this. The Army should have been prepared for the possibility that the gas attack would have gone ahead. Pussy Galore might have been caught trying to make the switch, or she might not have been able to get to the cannisters. Further, the Army should have been prepared to abort detonation of the bomb at the earliest possible moment, as the blast and ensuing fallout would have devastated not only the gold depository, but the neighboring military installation and the surrounding community, with massive loss of life.

I still think I can hypothesize why the Army didn't move the moment the helicopter touched down, but they were taking a frightful risk. Maybe we should blame poor planning by General Russhon.

[DR76]

One would have thought that the CIA and Army would have had a commando team (with gas masks) located nearer (but out of site of) the main gate in an ambush position ready to attack commando style - as well as with camouflaged snipers in the trees - as soon as the bomb was a 'reasonable' distance away from the chopper, thus avoiding the risk of the bomb going into the vault, non?

You know, I have never considered this, whenever I watch "GOLDFINGER". Interesting.

[Fiona Volpe lover]

There's no getting away from the fact that James Bond is curiously passive in the second half of Goldfinger. Possibly more passive than any other action hero in film history.

But, of course, no-one has ever done passivity better or more stylishly...

Agree with both those comments. There's no doubt that Goldfinger is almost as important a film in Bond history as Dr No,it was the first total smash hit,it had elements that would be milked to death in successive Bond films,it had things in it which are still truly iconic,etc. But I still find Goldfinger a disappointing experience every time I watch it,especially when sandwiched between the superb From Russia With Love and Thunderball,I even prefer Connery's performance in both of those!

As for comparing it with Quantum Of Solace,I think people can predict my answer!

[HildebrandRarity]

As for comparing it with Quantum Of Solace,I think people can predict my answer!

How?

I've been watching James Bond since 1971 and I rate Quantum well ahead of Goldfinger. There isn't even a contest.

In my mind (chronologically) Thunderball, TSWLM, CR and Q0S are the top 4 films in the canon.

[sharpshooter]

I rate Goldfinger well ahead of QoS. Doesn't make me like QoS any less, though. Just that I prefer one to the other in a head to head match-up.

Goldfinger is effortlessly cool and stylish, and comprises legendary set pieces. Whenever I think of James Bond, moments from this film flash in my mind. Ken Adam’s sets are fantastic, the characters are memorable and John Barry is scoring.

Goldfinger was the turning point and a true phenomenon. It elevated the series to a level of pop entertainment very few films achieve. And let's remember, without Goldfinger, we wouldn't have the Fields oil death scene. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.