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Martin Campbell


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#31 Mister Asterix

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:11 PM

If you have a problem with that scene then I point you in the direction of the aerial dogfight sequence in Quantum of Solace, followed by the classic moment of Bond and female companion jumping out of a plane with one parachute between them, landing in a cave and being completely fine.

Neither are particularly grittily realistic, are they? And the visual effects aren't exactly groundbreaking either.


The visual effects in the Quantum of Solace parachute scene is not perfect, but light years ahead of the GoldenEye jump. And Casino Royale set the precident for the new era as grittier and more realistic, but still a Bond film. So this works just fine by me.

#32 DamnCoffee

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:16 PM

Personally. The directing styles of Campbell and Forster are completely different. So it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Even though I do see Casino as the more superior film, I doubt that Campbell would of given us as much breathtaking cinematography as Forster gave us with Quantum. And for that, I say, NO.

Forster did a great job with Quantum of Solace, same with Campbell and Casino Royale, which is probably why I wouldn't want Forster directing Casino. They're completely different.

#33 Loomis

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:20 PM

Look, with Ian Fleming provinding the book, anyone would have gotten CR right.


Nonsense. There are plenty of utterly rubbish directors out there who'd have done an immeasurably worse job than Campbell.


And if anyone could get Casino Royale right, please explain what happened in 1967.


The 'anyone' was a throwaway.

I'm talking Forster v Campbell. Straight up. Mano-a-mano.

No contest that Forster crushes Campbell...on any movie, any genre, any time.

Forster doing GoldenEye would have been fantastic...no Fairy Bond moment!


Well, if we're talking about Forster versus Campbell, straight up, mano-a-mano, their bald heads butting together and their muscles clenching and glistening with sweat in the heat of combat as they collapse together onto the wrestling mat, heaving with exertion, both of them determined to get on top of the other guy and pin him down and give him what for.... I'd still go for Campbell. Campbell has given me one very good Bond film and one utter masterpiece, whereas Forster has merely delivered one very good Bond film with some glaring flaws.

In truth, I'd welcome either man back for BOND 23, but I expect that neither wishes to return to the series. I reckon Eon will get fresh blood, which is probably the way forward.

#34 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:21 PM

Not sure how much control Soup had of that scene.


Ha ha!

Soup holds ultimate responsibility...just like the 5 or 6 CBn-ers around here who hate Quantum hold Forster responsible for things like 'the boat chase' and the 'editing'. :(


Fair play then. :) ’Cept I don’t recall any problem’s with Quantum of Solace’s editing or boat chase.


Same natually...but then of the 80,000,000 tickets sold for Q0S, 5 or 6 of them were bought by some of the CBn-ers in the "For Those Who Did Not Like Q0S, Come In" thread.

Convince them otherwise, Mr *. :)

#35 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:28 PM

Look, with Ian Fleming provinding the book, anyone would have gotten CR right.


Nonsense. There are plenty of utterly rubbish directors out there who'd have done an immeasurably worse job than Campbell.


And if anyone could get Casino Royale right, please explain what happened in 1967.


The 'anyone' was a throwaway.

I'm talking Forster v Campbell. Straight up. Mano-a-mano.

No contest that Forster crushes Campbell...on any movie, any genre, any time.

Forster doing GoldenEye would have been fantastic...no Fairy Bond moment!


Well, if we're talking about Forster versus Campbell, straight up, mano-a-mano, their bald heads butting together and their muscles clenching and glistening with sweat in the heat of combat as they collapse together onto the wrestling mat, heaving with exertion, both of them determined to get on top of the other guy and pin him down and give him what for.... I'd still go for Campbell. Campbell has given me one very good Bond film and one utter masterpiece, whereas Forster has merely delivered one very good Bond film with some glaring flaws.


Notwithstanding your kool way with words, Loomy ( :( ) you really think Casino Royale is straight down to Campbell? So, Broccoli, Wilson, Ian Fleming, Daniel Craig and Paul Haggis had nothing to do with it?

#36 Loomis

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:39 PM

Notwithstanding your kool way with words, Loomy ( :( ) you really think Casino Royale is straight down to Campbell? So, Broccoli, Wilson, Ian Fleming, Daniel Craig and Paul Haggis had nothing to do with it?


They had an awful lot to do with it (and, yes, the film benefitted immeasurably from having Fleming as its source material). I've never said that Campbell did anything singlehandedly.

Film is a collaborative medium (as you know), and Campbell would have been able to do precisely squat without the amazing lineup of before- and behind-the-camera talent he had alongside him on CASINO ROYALE.

By the same token, though, much of the brilliance attributed to Forster on QUANTUM OF SOLACE was down to his colleagues. Obviously. :)

What gets my goat, though, is the assumption that some people (not your good self) seem to have that Forster is some kind of one-man artistic genius (dah-ling), while Campbell is just a talentless hack who merely got lucky on CASINO ROYALE.

#37 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:50 PM

What gets my goat, though, is the assumption that some people (not your good self) seem to have that Forster is some kind of one-man artistic genius (dah-ling), while Campbell is just a talentless hack who merely got lucky on CASINO ROYALE.


Perhaps that's because since, say, 1996, Campbell has not been attached to any decent work (other than CR) whereas Forster has done work that has been very much acclaimed (Monster's Ball, Finding Neverland, Stanger Than Fiction, Kite Runner) and delivered a riveting James Bond film too boot?

?

#38 CaptainPower

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 04:51 PM

If you have a problem with that scene then I point you in the direction of the aerial dogfight sequence in Quantum of Solace, followed by the classic moment of Bond and female companion jumping out of a plane with one parachute between them, landing in a cave and being completely fine.

Neither are particularly grittily realistic, are they? And the visual effects aren't exactly groundbreaking either.


The visual effects in the Quantum of Solace parachute scene is not perfect, but light years ahead of the GoldenEye jump. And Casino Royale set the precident for the new era as grittier and more realistic, but still a Bond film. So this works just fine by me.


To be fair GoldenEye was made 13 years before QoS, and with a fraction of the budget, so to criticise the visuals is a little unfair. And where exactly do we draw the line between what is "gritty and realistic but still a Bond film" and what is simply OTT nonsense? Wasn't the whole point of the Casino Royale back-to-basics approach an attempt to tone down the OTT action set pieces and deliver action that's a little more realistic? Personally I believe the sequences I mentioned went beyond that.

Edited by CaptainPower, 14 January 2009 - 04:52 PM.


#39 dodge

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 05:54 PM

Light years better. Ah, Marty, come back to us!

#40 Loomis

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:14 PM

What gets my goat, though, is the assumption that some people (not your good self) seem to have that Forster is some kind of one-man artistic genius (dah-ling), while Campbell is just a talentless hack who merely got lucky on CASINO ROYALE.


Perhaps that's because since, say, 1996, Campbell has not been attached to any decent work (other than CR) whereas Forster has done work that has been very much acclaimed (Monster's Ball, Finding Neverland, Stanger Than Fiction, Kite Runner) and delivered a riveting James Bond film too boot?

?


The thing is, it's easier to paint Forster as an artist and auteur and so on because he's European and looks like an intellectual (well, not that all intellectuals look alike, of course, but Forster does look rather more like a man of learning and culture than a bloke whose idea of a fun evening involves beer, fighting and chundering).

Forster makes "serious" and "worthy" films (would-be, anyway), so people are ready to acclaim him as a maestro. People are seduced by his German accent (or Swiss, or whatever freaky-deaky Euroland accent it may be).

But he, too, has made his share of less-than-brilliant films. I understand that STAY is pretty poor, and I personally didn't think THE KITE RUNNER to be as good a flick as a lot of folk make it out to be.

#41 zencat

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:15 PM

I don't know...but I certainly wish Stuart Baird would have edited it.

#42 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:21 PM

Anyone But Roger Michell For Bond 23!

I picture Michell having a pee while holding his knees together under his skirt just as he's about to say "...action..." on day one of principal shooting.

:(

#43 BlackFire

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:30 PM

Not underrating Marc Forster's work, but Martin Campbell could've done an amazing job.

#44 plankattack

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 06:36 PM

Anyone But Roger Mitchell For Bond 23!

I picture Mitchell having a pee while holding his knees together under his skirt just as he's about to say "...action..." on day one of principal shooting.

:(


Come on now. He did say he felt like "Dr Faustus."



Poor luvvie.....

#45 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 07:40 PM

Anyone But Roger Mitchell For Bond 23!

I picture Mitchell having a pee while holding his knees together under his skirt just as he's about to say "...action..." on day one of principal shooting.

:(


Come on now. He did say he felt like "Dr Faustus."



Poor luvvie.....


Er, ya. :)

I bet Michell was offered about $5 or $6 Million to direct Bond 22.

Do you think he'll get a sniff of 5,000,000 or 6,000,0000 dollars any time soon?

I suppose some people are scared of failure...scared of taking on a challenge...scared of leaving their comfort zone...scared of their own shadow...etc.

As for Martin Campbell...I bet he was 1) totally burnt out after dedicating 18 months of his life to Casino Royale and 2) figured his 'stock' had risen after CR and didn't want to take the 'risk' of having his stock 'fall', knowing that CR was (for him) like "catching lightning in a bottle".

#46 Eurospy

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:20 PM

I think it would be different. Not better, different style, perhaps pacing. But not worse.

Although I'm recalling CR. If it was Campbell in his GE mode, I don't think it would be better at all.

If it was Campbell in his CR mode, a different one indeed.

And I don't mean to offend the sensiblities of those who love GE, but IMHO it could have been much better. In fact, if it was CR's Campbell, I think I would like the film a great deal.

#47 Mr_Wint

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:21 PM

Of course, OQS would be better with Campbell. I can't see how any director out there could have made it much worse than it is.

#48 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:27 PM

But that said, I'm not sure Campbell-QoS would have been much different to CR, which is one of the strengths of Forster's film - it doesn't attempt to replicate CR.

I've not seen much of Campbell's other work (not a Zorro-fan) so I don't know how he would have handled QoS's pared-down, high-speed story. But the similarities do exist between GE and CR, in terms of pace and style, so I'd have to guess that with that Bond track-record, a Campbell QoS would have been in the same vein.

I don't see many similarities between CR and GE, in fact, I almost don't see any.

#49 Harmsway

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:30 PM

QUANTUM is a very good film, mind you, and I certainly wouldn't mind if Forster returned for BOND 23 (although it seems unlikely that he will), but I don't think it touches CASINO.

Entirely agreed.

Look, with Ian Fleming provinding the book, anyone would have gotten CR right.

Nonsense. There are plenty of utterly rubbish directors out there who'd have done an immeasurably worse job than Campbell.

Indeed. Including, perhaps, even Marc Forster.

But not Forster. If Forster had done Casino Royale it would have been better, including better paced.

Forster didn't like CASINO ROYALE's slower-paced sequences (the card game, for instance), but I think those are actually the strong point of the film. I daresay if Forster got his hands on CASINO ROYALE, it might have been a significantly less successful effort for that reason. Nor do I think Forster has anywhere near as good a handle on action as Campbell, so those sections of the film would have also likely suffered.

But if we're just talking about the general visual style, I rather wish CASINO ROYALE had been done with Forster's visual sensibility. I think CASINO ROYALE is a wonderful-looking film, but QUANTUM OF SOLACE still manages to superior in that area. If CASINO ROYALE had been shot with the same level of visual elegance that accompanied QUANTUM OF SOLACE's Tosca sequence, it would be absolutely untouchable.

#50 Eurospy

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:30 PM

Of course, OQS would be better with Campbell. I can't see how any director out there could have made it much worse than it is.


I think we all get the point by now concerning those who love it, those who hate it and those who think it's neither.

Edited by Eurospy, 14 January 2009 - 08:30 PM.


#51 DR76

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:31 PM

I'm with Judo and Zorin, I'm pretty happy with QOS as is. I don't believe Campbell could have given us this excellent movie.



No. Instead, he gave us a more superior film - CASINO ROYALE. Campbell can be unusual when he wants to. He proved that with CR. It's just that I believe he also knows how to direct an action film a lot better than Forster.


I'm not sure I agree. Forster didn't like CASINO ROYALE's slower-paced sequences (the card game, for instance), but I think those are actually the strong point of the film.



This only convinces me that it's a good thing that Forster did not direct CR. The card game and the emotional build up between Bond and some of the characters were necessary to the movie's plot. You would think that Forster understood this.

Edited by DR76, 14 January 2009 - 08:34 PM.


#52 Daddy Bond

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:35 PM

Since I like CR as it is and QOS as it is, I'd go with Campbell for CR and Forster for QOS and not change a thing.

#53 Eurospy

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:39 PM

No. Instead, he gave us a more superior film - CASINO ROYALE. Campbell can be unusual when he wants to. He proved that with CR. It's just that I believe he also knows how to direct an action film a lot better than Forster.


I don't really agree with that. His directing has been rather casual, in both GE (where he had a lot of input in the script, apparently) and Mask of Zorro.

I think that what distiguishes CR is more about the script than the quite competent directing itself. Yes, one can bring up the card scenes and how well they are directed (I don't know a thing about any card games whatsoever and I quite enjoy those scenes), but too many times praise is given to a director about something that is clearly described in the script.

I might be wrong about this, but I think that other touches in CR that weren't usual in Bond films were more pressed by the producers and writers rather than Campbell.

Edited by Eurospy, 14 January 2009 - 08:43 PM.


#54 Mister Asterix

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:43 PM

If you have a problem with that scene then I point you in the direction of the aerial dogfight sequence in Quantum of Solace, followed by the classic moment of Bond and female companion jumping out of a plane with one parachute between them, landing in a cave and being completely fine.

Neither are particularly grittily realistic, are they? And the visual effects aren't exactly groundbreaking either.


The visual effects in the Quantum of Solace parachute scene is not perfect, but light years ahead of the GoldenEye jump. And Casino Royale set the precident for the new era as grittier and more realistic, but still a Bond film. So this works just fine by me.


To be fair GoldenEye was made 13 years before QoS, and with a fraction of the budget, so to criticise the visuals is a little unfair. And where exactly do we draw the line between what is "gritty and realistic but still a Bond film" and what is simply OTT nonsense? Wasn't the whole point of the Casino Royale back-to-basics approach an attempt to tone down the OTT action set pieces and deliver action that's a little more realistic? Personally I believe the sequences I mentioned went beyond that.


Sorry, but I think that GoldenEye jump stunk for its time and its budget. Plus it’s a bigger sin. Had it been pulled off the motorcycle/aeroplane could’ve rivaled The Spy Who Loved Me’s Ski/Parachute stunt as the greatest in Bond history. Instead it’s a laughably bad effect in an otherwise brilliant pre-title sequence.

#55 DR76

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:46 PM

I don't really agree with that. His directing has been rather casual, in both GE (where he had a lot of input in the script, apparently) and Mask of Zorro.

I think that what distiguishes CR is more about the script than the quite competent directing itself. Yes, one can bring up the card scenes and how well they are directed (I don't know a thing about any card games whatsoever and I quite enjoy those scenes), but too many times praise is given to a director about something that is clearly described in the script.




I disagree with you. Granted, Forster knows how to inject an unusual visual style. But visual styles solely do not make a film. Campbell's talent is that he knows how to get a good performance from his players and give an action film a tight and gritty style without being heavy handed about it . . . like Greengrass or Forster.

I feel that Forster could have easily damaged QoS with his direction. The backbone of any good movie, in my opinion, is the story. And it takes a good director to know what to do with that story. Forster's disapproval of CR's slower pace nearly damaged QoS. The second film, like CR, had a pretty damn good story. But Forster's need to prove that a Bond film has to have its pace tightened at a point that leaves the movie with a 100 or 105 minute running time, nearly ruined QoS's story. Especially in the film's first half. And his attempt to come off as a second-rate Paul Greengass didn't help much. There was too much going on in QoS's plot for Forster to speed up the pace like that. It's a damn good thing that he managed to slow down when the film reached Bond's visit to Mathis in Italy, or that movie would have been completely shot, from my point of view.

Edited by DR76, 14 January 2009 - 08:49 PM.


#56 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 08:50 PM

But not Forster. If Forster had done Casino Royale it would have been better, including better paced.

Forster didn't like CASINO ROYALE's slower-paced sequences (the card game, for instance), but I think those are actually the strong point of the film. I daresay if Forster got his hands on CASINO ROYALE, it might have been a significantly less successful effort for that reason.


So you're saying 1) Forester can't 'slow it down when needed' and that 2) he would jettison the card game eventhough the card game is the centre piece of Ian Fleming's Casino Royale?

If you're saying the above, then i'll have to disagree. CR was going to have a card game no matter who directed the film.

If you're saying he would have done the Montenegro stuff 'faster', then I don't have a problem with it because I don't think CR is the best paced film in the series.

The only reason women, for instance, went to see CR more than any other Bond film was because of DC's bathing suit scenes and, especially, the scenes revolving round Vesper in the train, Vesper and Dinner Jackets, Vesper in the Shower, Vesper at Lake Como, etc...not because of the card game.

#57 Eurospy

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:11 PM

I disagree with you. Granted, Forster knows how to inject an unusual visual style. But visual styles solely do not make a film. Campbell's talent is that he knows how to get a good performance from his players and give an action film a tight and gritty style without being heavy handed about it . . . like Greengrass or Forster.

I feel that Forster could have easily damaged QoS with his direction. The backbone of any good movie, in my opinion, is the story. And it takes a good director to know what to do with that story. Forster's disapproval of CR's slower pace nearly damaged QoS. The second film, like CR, had a pretty damn good story. But Forster's need to prove that a Bond film has to have its pace tightened at a point that leaves the movie with a 100 or 105 minute running time, nearly ruined QoS's story. Especially in the film's first half. And his attempt to come off as a second-rate Paul Greengass didn't help much. There was too much going on in QoS's plot for Forster to speed up the pace like that. It's a damn good thing that he managed to slow down when the film reached Bond's visit to Mathis in Italy, or that movie would have been completely shot, from my point of view.


I don't know if Forster was doing the usual press junket act (as most actor, directors, etc. do) or if he truly meant that. If he meant it, I find it a very unwise thing to say.

He followed the only route he could, he made it visually more distinct then others (I'm not saying that it's either good or bad since that's not my point). That's the only way he could do a less overall predictable Bond movie, taking in account how incredibly high the bar was set with CR. Tougher shoes to fill then in previous entries.

But in my opinion he extracted excellent performances from his actors (I'd argue that he's actually more capable in that field) , and was bold enough not to make Greene distinct in any way whatsoever, for example, leaving most of the job for the actor. No scars, beards, bald heads, fighting skills, etc.

My favourite Greene scene (one I mentioned in another post) was the way he looks at Leiter and that other fellow as he's about to leave in his limo. No witty remarks, no pseudo-orders, no threats.

Among many others.

I'm not sure if Campbell's usually casual directing would have made QOS just as good, better or great. But he would have a different kind of material to work with. Perhaps such casual style would have hurt QoS story, since it could never be CR.

(That said, I want neither Campbell nor Forster back. I'd probably go with the director of The International. But I'll have to wait to watch it, just a gut feeling.)

The only reason women, for instance, went to see CR more than any other Bond film was because of DC's bathing suit scenes and, especially, the scenes revolving round Vesper in the train, Vesper and Dinner Jackets, Vesper in the Shower, Vesper at Lake Como, etc...not because of the card game.


I'm not sure my Mrs and her friends and colleagues would agree. According to the poll in that inner circle, if they were going to watch a Bond movie for the actor it would have been Brosnan.

Although I got a bit tired of hearing about Craig's "broad shoulders", Craig's "intense blue eyes", etc.

I'm rather confortable with a one-pack rather than a six-pack. And it's quite practical.

Edited by Eurospy, 14 January 2009 - 09:11 PM.


#58 [dark]

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:42 PM

Forster didn't like CASINO ROYALE's slower-paced sequences (the card game, for instance), but I think those are actually the strong point of the film. I daresay if Forster got his hands on CASINO ROYALE, it might have been a significantly less successful effort for that reason. Nor do I think Forster has anywhere near as good a handle on action as Campbell, so those sections of the film would have also likely suffered.

But if we're just talking about the general visual style, I rather wish CASINO ROYALE had been done with Forster's visual sensibility. I think CASINO ROYALE is a wonderful-looking film, but QUANTUM OF SOLACE still manages to superior in that area. If CASINO ROYALE had been shot with the same level of visual elegance that accompanied QUANTUM OF SOLACE's Tosca sequence, it would be absolutely untouchable.

I couldn't have put it better, Harmsway. The visuals are the one area in which I believe Quantum of Solace trumps Casino Royale (the Tosca scene is destined to become a Bond classic), and given Casino Royale's visuals are terrific, it's no mean feat.

I also feel Forster wouldn't have pulled off Casino Royale as well as Campbell did. I'm still amazed that the poker sequences are as engaging and as lucid as they are. (I love the way Campbell found different, but consistantly interesting ways of shooting the players.) These scenes could have turned Casino Royale into a real bore had they been handled with any less panache - look at The World is Not Enough's casino sequence.

zencat might have hit the nail on the head - Forster's editors let the side down.

#59 Nicolas Suszczyk

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:20 PM

A question popped into my head over the weekend. What if Martin Campbell had come back to direct Quantum of Solace? Would it have been better? Worse?
He did such a great job with Casino Royale, that, I think, he should have come in to finish the "story arch" with QoS.


It would have been better than Casino Royale, perhaps the best Bond since (IMO) GoldenEye.

Go home Forster!

#60 Loomis

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:28 PM

The visuals are the one area in which I believe Quantum of Solace trumps Casino Royale (the Tosca scene is destined to become a Bond classic), and given Casino Royale's visuals are terrific, it's no mean feat.


Eh, I don't think QUANTUM even trumps CASINO on a visual level. To be sure, it has some lovely shots, and it generally has an "artier" look to it, but CASINO is consistently beautiful (and often very visually striking and imaginative) and never verges on seeming visually pretentious the way QUANTUM sometimes does. Forster's direction is the kind of direction that calls attention to itself (which is why he's acclaimed as an "artist"), whereas Campbell is more like the kind of director Billy Wilder called "the best kind of director, the one you don't see". This is why I'm riled by the automatic assumption on the part of some folk that Forster must be the superior filmmaker because he looks the part and stuffs his work with his "personal vision". :(