21 replies to this topic

[zencat]

We've talked a lot about what we want for BOND 21 (size, tone, actors) but for me I want a Bond film that ISN'T personal. Know what I mean? Every Pierce movie has had a "personal" element to it. I thought they went as far as they should in TWINE, but it looks like they're taking it even further with DAD. "The person who set me up then set me up again and I'm going after him!!!" Okay. Is that James Bond talking? It sounds more like the clich

[Double oh Ten]

Well the personal tone has worn itself out now, but I think you're right about the Bond on a mission vibe. It would be good to see Bond killing the villain with a cool witty sense instead of a 'For Me' sense.

[Bryce (003)]

It's funny, but I just had this conversation with some people at meeting a few days ago.

Someone started it with "Does Bond have to always be on some type of vendetta these days?"

I, much to the amazement of those present probably, agreed. What happened to the TB type assignment. Briefing on the threat, all Double-O's go to the corners of the world for Queen and country, and of course, 007 is the man on target. Maybe even for once, have Bond in the dark on the bad guy.

M: Ever heard of him?

BOND: (puzzled) Can't say that I have.

M: Try to keep up on things 007.

Just a thought. But yes, let's settle the "this time (like the last two times) it's personal". I must remind everyone that the "this time, it's personal" was a the tag-line on....

*Bryce shakes head & sighs*

JAWS: The Revenge

I'm not kidding.

[Xenobia]

I gotta admit...I'd be a little afraid of Bond going after someone and it wasn't personal.

I've spent many hours explaining to people that Bond really isn't a cold blooded killer, but if he is going after someone because he is ordered to do it -- plain and simple -- that's going to go places that I am not even sure Fleming wanted it to go.

True....not every film should be an LTK or DAD (which still Needs Another Title, btw), but why do something like risk your life if there isn't a personal reason for it?

-- Xenobia

[Harmsway]

Originally posted by Xenobia
I gotta admit...I'd be a little afraid of Bond going after someone and it wasn't personal.

I've spent many hours explaining to people that Bond really isn't a cold blooded killer, but if he is going after someone because he is ordered to do it -- plain and simple -- that's going to go places that I am not even sure Fleming wanted it to go.  

True....not every film should be an LTK or DAD (which still Needs Another Title, btw), but why do something like risk your life if there isn't a personal reason for it?

-- Xenobia

Well, I think Bond doesn't need a personal reason to kill a villain. He's been impersonal before, and even though you say he's not a cold-blooded killer, I believe he certainly can be at times. You say you'd be afraid of Bond going after someone and its not personal. Well, he's done it before. The Spy Who Loved Me is an example. What did Bond have personally against Stromberg? I don't know, but it works.

Personally I believe Bond needs to get away from a personal case. In my opinion, Bond can survive without having a personal vendetta against the villain. I think a cold-blooded killing scene would be excellent, just like Davidov's death in TWINE.

[Evil Doctor Cheese]

Nice to see you've not dropped the "Needs Another Title" thing Xen. Forever more DAD shall be NAT to Xenobia.

I'd like to see Bond just on a plain mission... yeah sure make it clever and relevant (like TND and Moonraker in their contempory times) but don't make it original with the "personal" thing... make it original by the way Bond does stuff (like surfing, swithcboards,etc ... personally would've been tempted to keep a few of the original elements for the next few films if I was P&W but that's just me). Do you get what I mean. Yeah sure the plot can be the same but the way it's done can be totally different and that;s what should make each film distinguishable. Bond 21 should leave the personal stuff out.

[M_Balje]

Originally posted by zencat
"The person who set me up then set me up again and I'm going after him!!!"  

Yes,i hurt it too in the last trailer.
It like as Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[rafterman]

Bond is a professional. This is his job. It doesn't always need to be personal and it really shouldn't be. He's a hired gun, an assassin basically. He does all this for queen and country. He shouldn't really have feelings one way or the other about who his target is. I want him just back on a mission. A straight forward adventure, not the complex character defining personal assignments he's getting now. I think they've gone as far as they can with those. The revenge, the past lovers coming back to haunt him. Enough. Just send the man out to do his job and have an adventure in the process. He should be more of a cold blooded killer. It's a filthy business yes, but it's what they pay him to do. After all he does have a licence to kill. He kills easily and without second thoughts most of the time. In TWINE he debates killing Renard in cold blood. Why? He just knocked off Davidoff without a second thought, yet here he debates. Why? Because the story needs him to let the man live long enough to fight him at the end. Bond doesn't kill because of emotion, he kills because it's his job.

[zencat]

I happy to see how many people seem to agree on this point. One thing I really liked about the new Benson book, The Man With The Red Tattoo, was that it was just a straight ahead rip-roaring Bond adventure set in an exotic local. There was nothing personal about it. I'm looking forward to DAD, but then it's time to get Bond back to work "for England."

[Spectre001]

Goldeneye - Someone steals it. Bond used to work with him...so what! He is still on a mission to recover it.

TND - Bond screwed Paris a few years ago...so what? She just happens to be married to someone who wants to start WWIII

TWINE - Maybe a bit more personal but it's Electra that is out for revenge, not Bond

....or have I missed the plot here?

[spankymoore7]

i totally understand, the bond with all these feelings needs to go. but do you think the glamour fades a bit when there is nothing extra? the early films with connery(up till OHMSS) didnt have revenge or personal matters in one sense, but they still were dealing with SPECTRE, bond's nemesis. would mission with out a "big" villian like blofeld/spectre or personal connection feel less important? maybe its just me, but i miss the feel of going against spectre. just a thought, thanks

[Wade]

Of course, Brosnan being a true pro as an actor, he wants his character to change, to undergo some growth, to be personally involved. Otherwise, it's a cartoon. But you're all right; the guy needs to go on some professional missions, where he can grow and evolve by being TESTED in the field. That's what I've always wanted to see: Bond in real action, having to work in a mission, rather than stroll through it. Bond needs to evolve as a character, from the suave ladies man in Connery's day and the droll jokester in Moore's day to an efficient, ruthless agent in the real world for Brosnan's era. Gadgets and grandiose schemes are commonplace these days. Base modern-day Bond in the actual (yet highly stylized) world of espionage.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Spectre001
Goldeneye - Someone steals it. Bond used to work with him...so what! He is still on a mission to recover it.

TND - Bond screwed Paris a few years ago...so what? She just happens to be married to someone who wants to start WWIII

TWINE - Maybe a bit more personal but it's Electra that is out for revenge, not Bond

....or have I missed the plot here?

Maybe.

LTK -- He's out on his own and he's out for revenge. Personal complications = angry Bond.

GE -- Bond's best friend is the villian. "For England, James?" "No, for me." Personal complications = pensive Bond.

TND -- the great love of Bond's life is married to the villian. Personal complications = weepy "I knew you would come" Bond.

TWINE -- Do I even need to explain? Soap opera complications = weepy, pensive, angry, and vengful Bond.

DAD -- He's out on his own and he's out for revenge. Personal complications = angry Bond, again.

[freemo]

I definatly agree, been thinking this for a while actually. Not saying that ones with the "personal" element are in anyway bad, but let's not do this every time, it loses some effect and I miss the old fashioned adventures when it was just Bond saving the world without the "Days of our Lives" feel to it. Surely Bond would be put under review by his superiors if every mission he was in had all these personal elements and whatnot.

[Jim]

Oh, he's an emotional maelstrom.

Didn't emote much when he shot Professor Dent. He just shot him.

When he gets emotional, he makes mistakes of judgment (like appearing in Licence to Kill). This doesn't make him real. He's a fantasy figure. It imbalances the character. Impervious to bullets he remains. How real is that then?

One or the other please. Let's have him remember that's he's an employee of a political construct ordering him to kill, not some sort of one man vendetta machine. Let's not have the Bond series end up like Death Wish (a shoddy series, granted) - I think Death Wish 6 was revenge for the killing of the neighbour's gerbil.

[marktmurphy]

Originally posted by zencat


Personal complications = weepy "I knew you would come" Bond.

TWINE -- Do I even need to explain? Soap opera complications = weepy, pensive, angry, and vengful Bond.

TWINE: You missed out 'twitching'.


And JamesBonddoubleoseven always knows who's about to come.

[Blue Eyes]

You know, with his own wit Jim has really summed up what I want Bond 21 to be like. And Zencat, you've raised a point that I think a lot of Bond fans are going to agree with you on. And you've also released it at the perfect time as we've just received the very 'personal' trailer.

What do I want from Bond 21? Something non-personal. I want the bruteness of Bond from Dr. No (the Professor Dent scene in particular is perfect cold and we need something like it again) and I want a more mysterious film like From Russia With Love or Goldfinger. The one where Bond doesn't quite get what's going on and maybe we do, but if we do, it's a thriller like From Russia With Love.

Yup, there's the word. That's what I want. I want a thriller. I want another From Russia With Love. Nothing too over the top, no Ice Palaces this time around. Beautiful Europe and a lot of 'on the edge of your seat' moments.

[zencat]

Well said Blue Eyes. And I would add ...with James Bond at the top of his game, not hampered by any personal complication. Pure Bond.

[Loomis]

Ironically, Brosnan is the only Bond since OHMSS who hasn't been explicitly pointed out as having been married to Tracy!

[Bryce (003)]

Once again Zencat, you've kicked off yet another cool post.

Drawing from my fav. Bond film, how about a good old "Kill Bond! Now!" plot ala' FRWL. The bad guys have a plot to remove a thorn in the side of evil-doer's everywhere...for a price....on Bond's head. Yes, it's been done in the Gardner novel...but on film, why not?

[Robinson]

What do I want from Bond 21? Something non-personal. I want the bruteness of Bond from Dr. No (the Professor Dent scene in particular is perfect cold and we need something like it again)[/B][/QUOTE]

"You left this with Ferrara, I believe" And Bond kicks the Mercedes over the side.

I had stated as much on the Ian Fleming website(I was Pussfellow at the time)some time ago. Bond needs to become, to paraphrase Benson- "the blunt instrument of Her Majesty's Government."

Bond to Pushkin:

Stay where you are!

Now get down on your knees...

Put your hands behind your back...

A potential assasination is about to take place & we haven't come close to seeing anything else like it since then. Damn! Who can forget Necross begging for his life before he "gets the boot" in TLD. The Dr. Kaufman extermination in TND is almost played for laughs. I can't think of seeing Vincent Schiavelli & not think of him as the science teacher in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High!"

One other disturbing characteristic of Bond that's gone missing is his brutality.... He smacks his future wife and asserts he can be a lot more persuasive.

I'd like to see a world-weary Brosnan Bond in '04 or '05 who dispatches the enemy without feeling and without a personal stake in the assigned mission. However, it is a small world and you'd think Bond would start running into folks from his past. Hell, I'm waiting for him to go up against a villain who could be his offspring!

"My name is Percival Galore!" (as he strikes Bond with the butt of his rifle)

[Spectre001]

The Dr. Kaufman scene was one of the most memorable for me. He was awesome and a shame he had to die. Seeing more of him would have hurt...but I do like the way Bond did away with him.

The other one you may be forgetting is his shooting of Electra. She was unarmed and he could have easily had her arrested but instead decided to put a bullet in her. That's cold man...I love it!!!

And lets face it...Dalton was so cold the Grim Reaper would have thrown him back.