24 replies to this topic

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

The line from CR is this...
James Bond: Dry Martini.
Bartender: Oui, monsieur.
James Bond: Wait... three measures of Gordon's; one of vodka; half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it over ice, and add a thin slice of lemon peel.

I don't know that much about cocktails, hence, I don't understand if it's implicit that the Bond's recipe includes half of measure of Martini, because he started to order his drink as "Dry Martini" (besides of the half of measure of Kina Lillet, which according the bartender from QOS isn't a vermouth-), or if the- out of production- Kina Lillet, in some way, replace the presence of the Martini in Bond's recipe from CR??

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 30 December 2008 - 08:39 AM.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Anyone can clarify this???

[MkB]

Hmm I'm no expert, but here's my understanding: both Martini (the one that is available in bianco, rosso, and rosato) and Kina Lillet are brands of vermouth (they're all of a kind), vermouth being the generic name of this kind of liquor.
A "Dry Martini" in the world of cocktails, is a mix of Gin (and/or Vodka, if you fancy that) + a little bit of Vermouth. The Vermouth part may be from different brands, Martini being one of them (maybe the most famous), and Kina Lillet being another (and Noilly Prat yet another, for instance).
So in this recipe, the vermouth is specified as Kina Lillet, so there shouldn't be Martini vermouth involved.

[BlackFire]

I always thought that if Kina Lillet is a Vermouth brand, and if Gordons is a brand of Gin, why he didn't said "Three measures of Gordons, one of Smirnoff, half a measure of Kina Lillet..." if Smirnoff is Bond's Vodka of choice.

[Scrambled Eggs]

I always thought that if Kina Lillet is a Vermouth brand, and if Gordons is a brand of Gin, why he didn't said "Three measures of Gordons, one of Smirnoff, half a measure of Kina Lillet..." if Smirnoff is Bond's Vodka of choice.

I'd not thought of that before but you're right.

Maybe it's because, post war, it was difficult to obtain quality brands of vodka? Thus, all the available vodka would've been unremarkable, generic stuff and so there'd be no point in requesting a specific brand.

I recall that in Moonraker, Bond and M share a bottle of (I think) Wolfschmidt vodka. I think it's described as being "pre war" - a description which suggests that top brands of vodka were a true rarity - even for Fleming/Bond!

[MkB]

I always thought that if Kina Lillet is a Vermouth brand, and if Gordons is a brand of Gin, why he didn't said "Three measures of Gordons, one of Smirnoff, half a measure of Kina Lillet..." if Smirnoff is Bond's Vodka of choice.

I'd not thought of that before but you're right.

Maybe it's because, post war, it was difficult to obtain quality brands of vodka? Thus, all the available vodka would've been unremarkable, generic stuff and so there'd be no point in requesting a specific brand.

I recall that in Moonraker, Bond and M share a bottle of (I think) Wolfschmidt vodka. I think it's described as being "pre war" - a description which suggests that top brands of vodka were a true rarity - even for Fleming/Bond!

Ah! Nicely spotted, Blackfire!

Actually, it is true that a Vodka brand appears in Mooraker, but oddly it is M, not Bond, who asks for a specific brand:

"Ah, Grimley, some vodka, please." He turned to Bond. "Not the stuff you had in your cocktail. This is real pre-war Wolfschmidt from Riga. Like some with your smoked salmon?"

Looks like, for once, M is nitpickier about a liquor than Bond!
The only other moment I can think of when Bond seems to be more specific than "vodka", is from Dr. No:

Bond said, "And I would like a medium Vodka dry Martini - with a slice of lemon peel. Shaken-and not stirred, please. I would prefer Russian or Polish vodka."

But again, it's not a brand, but an origin.

Very odd!

UPDATE: actually, there's another occasion on which Bond is a tad more specific about how he likes his Vodka. It's in CR, when he tastes the Vesper a waiter as mixed according to his instructions:

'Excellent,' he said to the barman, 'but if you can get a vodka made with grain instead of potatoes, you will find it still better.'

[Scrambled Eggs]

actually, there's another occasion on which Bond is a tad more specific about how he likes his Vodka. It's in CR, when he tastes the Vesper a waiter as mixed according to his instructions:

'Excellent,' he said to the barman, 'but if you can get a vodka made with grain instead of potatoes, you will find it still better.'

Ah yeah, which also suggests that they only had dodgy bathtub vodka to choose from.

Maybe strange then that he didn't ditch the voddy and just have four measures of Gin? I don't think it'd affect the flavour much.

I wonder if any of the folks who've tried mixing their own Vesper have taken the trouble to use a vodka made from spuds?

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Hmm I'm no expert, but here's my understanding: both Martini (the one that is available in bianco, rosso, and rosato) and Kina Lillet are brands of vermouth (they're all of a kind), vermouth being the generic name of this kind of liquor.
A "Dry Martini" in the world of cocktails, is a mix of Gin (and/or Vodka, if you fancy that) + a little bit of Vermouth. The Vermouth part may be from different brands, Martini being one of them (maybe the most famous), and Kina Lillet being another (and Noilly Prat yet another, for instance).
So in this recipe, the vermouth is specified as Kina Lillet, so there shouldn't be Martini vermouth involved.

Yes but then again, the bartender from QOS says specifically that Kina Lillet is not a vermouth So Bond didn't make the righ order when he asked for a dry MARTINI in CR, or he just suddenly change his mind, and didn't want to drink martini vermouth anymore, but Kina Lillet.

[MkB]

Ah yeah, which also suggests that they only had dodgy bathtub vodka to choose from.

Indeed! Also, since this scene took place in a French bar, maybe it was Fleming way of saying French bars had only dodgy bathtub vodka?

Maybe strange then that he didn't ditch the voddy and just have four measures of Gin? I don't think it'd affect the flavour much.

Well, you know my opinion about vodka...
Anyway, here my guess is that, since Vodka Martinis weren't apparently as common in the 50s as they are nowadays (thanks to James Bond!), adding the Vodka element was a way for Fleming to make Bond sound both original (in his choice of mixer) and exotic (in Moonraker, he tells M how he has been taught by the Russian how to put some grains of pepper in his Vodka, when he attached to the Embassy in Moscow).

[Scrambled Eggs]

Ah yeah, which also suggests that they only had dodgy bathtub vodka to choose from.

Indeed! Also, since this scene took place in a French bar, maybe it was Fleming way of saying French bars had only dodgy bathtub vodka?

Maybe strange then that he didn't ditch the voddy and just have four measures of Gin? I don't think it'd affect the flavour much.

Well, you know my opinion about vodka...
Anyway, here my guess is that, since Vodka Martinis weren't apparently as common in the 50s as they are nowadays (thanks to James Bond!), adding the Vodka element was a way for Fleming to make Bond sound both original (in his choice of mixer) and exotic (in Moonraker, he tells M how he has been taught by the Russian how to put some grains of pepper in his Vodka, when he attached to the Embassy in Moscow).

Yes... I remember the affair of the frozen Smirnoff.

I've tried that pepper thing. Not unpleasant, although it's not something I'd think to do while sober.

There's only one way of getting to the bottom of this "does a Vesper taste the same using only gin?" mystery. First though I need to find some Kina Lillet - I wonder if it's easier to find in France? It'd be nice to find out of Parisian barmen still have it in their armoury.

[MkB]

Hmm I'm no expert, but here's my understanding: both Martini (the one that is available in bianco, rosso, and rosato) and Kina Lillet are brands of vermouth (they're all of a kind), vermouth being the generic name of this kind of liquor.
A "Dry Martini" in the world of cocktails, is a mix of Gin (and/or Vodka, if you fancy that) + a little bit of Vermouth. The Vermouth part may be from different brands, Martini being one of them (maybe the most famous), and Kina Lillet being another (and Noilly Prat yet another, for instance).
So in this recipe, the vermouth is specified as Kina Lillet, so there shouldn't be Martini vermouth involved.

Yes but then again, the bartender from QOS says specifically that Kina Lillet is not a vermouth So Bond didn't make the righ order when he asked for a dry MARTINI in CR, or he just suddenly change his mind, and didn't want to drink martini vermouth anymore, but Kina Lillet.

Ah ok! Got it! Sorry, as I said, I'm not an expert: I've never had a proper Vesper, and I've never tasted Kina Lillet either. From what I've read, by the way, Kina Lillet has changed its brand name for Lillet Blanc, since the days of Fleming. I thought it was a vermouth, but I've just checked, and you're right, it isn't properly a vermouth but a bitter apéritif.
But anyway, Kina Lillet comes in place of the vermouth. So maybe the Vesper is not a proper Dry Martini for purists, but there's no Martini (vermouth bianco) involved.

[MkB]

There's only one way of getting to the bottom of this "does a Vesper taste the same using only gin?" mystery. First though I need to find some Kina Lillet - I wonder if it's easier to find in France? It'd be nice to find out of Parisian barmen still have it in their armoury.

I like this scientific method!
Too bad, according to this article, the recipe changed a little bit in the 1980s (they dropped the quinine, to get a less bitter taste):
http://ezinearticles...r...d&id=486065
About Parisian barmen having some bottles letf, I am pretty sure that you can order a proper Vesper in some places those days, following the success of CR. Before that, I had never heard of this apéritif.
If you want to make some scientific experiments including some methanol at home, Lillet Blanc (i.e. the closest thing to Kina Lillet) seems to be available online even in the UK:
http://www.thewhisky...com/P-5041.aspx

Cheers!

[Bryce (003)]

Greetings lads...

Now "let's talk shop."

Unless you've stumbled across a vintage case from the 40's, Kina Lillet is no longer to be found. These days, Lillet Blanc is simply a sweet white wine in total.

A true "martini" was Gin with a splash of vermouth. Fleming dedicated himself (repeatedly) to creating a unique martini at Scott's in London - theory also has him taking his task to the Rivoli bar at the Ritz, El Vino and the St. James club (hey, we all know the man did his research *ahem* ).

As I've stated in several threads here and about, it comes down to taste and what I find interesting is how the Lillet balances the match between the Gin and the Vodka.

So, that being stated, here is my preferred order. To each their own, but, done properly, this, to many others taste, seem to "hit the spot, spot on."

Three measures gin - I (through many Gin afficianado's) find that Bombay Sapphire is closest to what Gordon's was back in the early 50's in terms of flavour. Nothing against dear old Gordy now, but it was just well...different back then. So I'm told.

Now, the Vodka. Talk about a laundry list these days.

Forget product placement. There are too many to choose from. You like what you like. For myself, I like Belvedere or Chopin. Smooth. Filtered. If you are adamant about Russian, Stoli Crystal fits the bill.

If you don't have Lillet available (few other than the high end lounges or restaurants carry it) ask for half a measure of the house chardonnay and have them add a splash of good old dry vermouth.

Happily, my favorite Italian spot (consult darkpath for testimony) carry the proper makings for a Vesper.

They've also named another cocktail for a lady in my life. It's titled a "CosMonique".

If you want the recipe, you can PM me.

and remember: "Martini's are like breasts. One is not enough. Two are perfect. Three are too many."

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[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I was reading the Casino Royale novel... and Fleming remarks that Bond told to Vesper about his "special MARTINI" (The Vesper). Since we all now know (just like the bartender from QOS stated) that that cocktail doesn't have any kind of vermouth, I assume that the writer, and for extension his character, didn't know that Kina Lillet wasn't a kind of vermouth, 'cause I don't think that was a deliberated mistake.

That make me think that Fleming, just like his literary creation, wasn't such a big expert on cocktails, unlike as most of the movie incarnations of the character are appears to be.

In fact, in the same novel there's another example of this drink's amateurism, when Bond orders champagne, intially didn't make the best choice, then it was corrected by the sommelier's suggestion, which was immediately accepted by OO7.

Anyway, I like this CR's interpretation of the character.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 31 December 2008 - 09:17 PM.

[Professor Pi]

This is a great thread. I had asked for a martini at a bar since QoS was coming up, and the bartender sighed, "Do you want a Vesper?" "Oh, if you can make one, sure." I've since found many worthwhile bartenders have this in their skill set, thanks to CR no doubt.

But then for Christmas my best friend got me all the makings of a proper Vesper, after doing some research online. Lillet, a French white wine aperitif since the Kina is no longer made. Then Tanqueray No. Ten, as he'd read that was the closest approximation to Gordon's recipe of Fleming's day, and Stolichnaya Russian grain vodka (Fleming had to settle for Polish vodka in the 50s.)

We each had one, marveling at the combined alcohol proof content, and then wondering how Bond could have six!

[darkpath]

Greetings lads...

Now "let's talk shop."

Unless you've stumbled across a vintage case from the 40's, Kina Lillet is no longer to be found. These days, Lillet Blanc is simply a sweet white wine in total.

A true "martini" was Gin with a splash of vermouth. Fleming dedicated himself (repeatedly) to creating a unique martini at Scott's in London - theory also has him taking his task to the Rivoli bar at the Ritz, El Vino and the St. James club (hey, we all know the man did his research *ahem* ).

As I've stated in several threads here and about, it comes down to taste and what I find interesting is how the Lillet balances the match between the Gin and the Vodka.

So, that being stated, here is my preferred order. To each their own, but, done properly, this, to many others taste, seem to "hit the spot, spot on."

Three measures gin - I (through many Gin afficianado's) find that Bombay Sapphire is closest to what Gordon's was back in the early 50's in terms of flavour. Nothing against dear old Gordy now, but it was just well...different back then. So I'm told.

Now, the Vodka. Talk about a laundry list these days.

Forget product placement. There are too many to choose from. You like what you like. For myself, I like Belvedere or Chopin. Smooth. Filtered. If you are adamant about Russian, Stoli Crystal fits the bill.

If you don't have Lillet available (few other than the high end lounges or restaurants carry it) ask for half a measure of the house chardonnay and have them add a splash of good old dry vermouth.

Happily, my favorite Italian spot (consult darkpath for testimony) carry the proper makings for a Vesper.

They've also named another cocktail for a lady in my life. It's titled a "CosMonique".

If you want the recipe, you can PM me.

and remember: "Martini's are like breasts. One is not enough. Two are perfect. Three are too many."

Terribly sorry to have kept you all waiting. I can, indeed, attest to accuracy and artistry of the bartenders at Bryce's favourite Italian spot, and was enjoying the Vesper that I had there greatly. Had I not already been driving for the previous six hours and been still facing another two, I should have very much liked to have finished it as it was delightfully smooth but crisp all the same. In short, it was superb.

Another place that I can personally attest to is Canaletto, at the Venetian Casino and Resort in Las Vegas, though they were helped by Bryce's own dictation in preparing in when I was personally testing their efforts.

I also very much agree with Bryce's suggestion of Bombay Sapphire, as I have found it melds quite nicely while giving just the right punch. As a word of caution, a Vesper is neither a small not weak drink, and ought not to be underestimated. That isn't to scare anyone away; but, it is something that one should exercise some care and maturity with.

I have also enjoyed a glass of Lillet Blanc as an after supper apertif and found it to my liking, going very nicely with a simple dessert of sliced fruit.

I do regret that even if I could locate a case of Kina Lillet, I doubt that I would be amenable to the opportunity cost of acquiring it; but I am sure that I would be quite tempted. One of my favourite soft drinks is tonic water, so the bitter taste of quinine is not off-putting to me, and I think it would add an interesting tone to a Vesper. I do recall someone suggesting adding powdered quinine to a Vesper's ingredients prior to shaking; but I have no idea where I could acquire it and no idea how much to add.

[Hotwinds]

I have never tried The Vesper version of a martini but I do prefer gin to vodka as gin has more flavor. This has both of course.
My only comment on the recipe is that in my humble opinion it is dated.
By that I mean that when Fleming wrote the book, Gordons was a respected brand if not the top brand at the time.
Other brands have come along since then that are better. Bombay for example that was already mentioned.
If Fleming were writing the book today he would not have chosen Gordons.
Gordons may not be the same as it once was just as Smirnoff isnt. They have since improved their process and now call it "triple distilled" which makes for less of a hangover later. The more times it is distilled, the better.

The line from CR is this...
James Bond: Dry Martini.
Bartender: Oui, monsieur.
James Bond: Wait... three measures of Gordon's; one of vodka; half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it over ice, and add a thin slice of lemon peel.

I don't know that much about cocktails, hence, I don't understand if it's implicit that the Bond's recipe includes half of measure of Martini, because he started to order his drink as "Dry Martini" (besides of the half of measure of Kina Lillet, which according the bartender from QOS isn't a vermouth-), or if the- out of production- Kina Lillet, in some way, replace the presence of the Martini in Bond's recipe from CR??

[MkB]

I was reading the Casino Royale novel... and Fleming remarks that Bond told to Vesper about his "special MARTINI" (The Vesper). Since we all now know (just like the bartender from QOS stated) that that cocktail doesn't have any kind of vermouth, I assume that the writer, and for extension his character, didn't know that Kina Lillet wasn't a kind of vermouth, 'cause I don't think that was a deliberated mistake.

I'm not sure about that... It may very well deliberate. Fleming makes Bond his own man, relying only on his own taste and not on others' rules. I can very well see him deciding on purpose to make a Martini with Kina Lillet instead of Vermouth, because he finds it better. Besides, again I haven't tried Lillet, but from the description I have read, it must have been rather close to the taste of a vermouth.

In fact, in the same novel there's another example of this drink's amateurism, when Bond orders champagne, intially didn't make the best choice, then it was corrected by the sommelier's suggestion, which was immediately accepted by OO7.

If you're referring to the paragraph when Bond orders Taittinger 43, and the waiter suggests that the Taittinger 45 cuvée spéciale is really outstanding, I wouldn't call it "drink amateurism" on Bond's part I'd see it more as a dialogue between a connoisseur and an expert.

That make me think that Fleming, just like his literary creation, wasn't such a big expert on cocktails, unlike as most of the movie incarnations of the character are appears to be.

I don't know about cocktails, but I suspect Fleming was not really an expert on wines. Actually, I've read an article posted here by Qwerty, around the time of the Centenary celebrations, where someone who had known Fleming said that he didn't know much about wines (maybe it was John Pearson? I can't remember unfortunately). I suspect that Fleming's (and consequently Bond's) partiality to Champagne comes from a lack of wine knowledge. Maybe it's my own partiality, but I deem Champagne is a thouroughly overrated wine; the pleasure you can find in it is generally not at all worth the price. It's heavily marketed as a luxury and festive drink to people who don't know anything about wine, and people tend to buy Champagne for a celebration just because of the symbol. For the price of a "cheap" Champagne (generally disgusting and just worth throwing in the sink), one can buy wonderful but less known bottles!
The same is true about the dreadful Beaujolais, but at least it's less expensive, and anyway Fleming never had Bond drinking it (it could have been an interesting idea for a torture scene, though... )

[Professor Pi]

I noticed the other day while watching Never Say Never Again that Connery has Absolut vodka in his briefcase at the health spa. How times have changed since '83.

[Gothamite]

I noticed the other day while watching Never Say Never Again that Connery has Absolut vodka in his briefcase at the health spa. How times have changed since '83.

I was just about to say that!

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

I was reading the Casino Royale novel... and Fleming remarks that Bond told to Vesper about his "special MARTINI" (The Vesper). Since we all now know (just like the bartender from QOS stated) that that cocktail doesn't have any kind of vermouth, I assume that the writer, and for extension his character, didn't know that Kina Lillet wasn't a kind of vermouth, 'cause I don't think that was a deliberated mistake.

I'm not sure about that... It may very well deliberate. Fleming makes Bond his own man, relying only on his own taste and not on others' rules. I can very well see him deciding on purpose to make a Martini with Kina Lillet instead of Vermouth, because he finds it better. Besides, again I haven't tried Lillet, but from the description I have read, it must have been rather close to the taste of a vermouth.

Right, but still a (Dry) martini made on purpose with Kina Lillet, instead of vermouth, isn't really a martini, but another kind of drink, because as far as I know Kina Lillet is not a vermouth, just like, as I said earlier, the bartender from QOS, stated. I don't want to sound stubborn, but that's just my point.

[Scrambled Eggs]

There's only one way of getting to the bottom of this "does a Vesper taste the same using only gin?" mystery. First though I need to find some Kina Lillet - I wonder if it's easier to find in France? It'd be nice to find out of Parisian barmen still have it in their armoury.

I like this scientific method!
Too bad, according to this article, the recipe changed a little bit in the 1980s (they dropped the quinine, to get a less bitter taste):
http://ezinearticles...r...d&id=486065
About Parisian barmen having some bottles letf, I am pretty sure that you can order a proper Vesper in some places those days, following the success of CR. Before that, I had never heard of this apéritif.
If you want to make some scientific experiments including some methanol at home, Lillet Blanc (i.e. the closest thing to Kina Lillet) seems to be available online even in the UK:
http://www.thewhisky...com/P-5041.aspx

Cheers!

Well, I've gone through with the experiment.

For the record I used:

Tanqueray gin - the best available.

Imperial vodka - the crappest available. The alternative would be distilling my own spirit from potatoes and finding the cheapest, nastiest vodka I could was less hassle. Normally i wuld drink Wybrowka (Polish, the best. Do not argue with me).

Lillet Rouge - Because thats the closest i came to Kina Lillet at my local victual supplier.

Obviously, as a result, this concoction isn't reall a Vesper. It's close to a Vesper and red in colour - and so I christen it a Tiffany Case.

And I recommend it.

Anyway, I can state that in my opinion and in the opinion of my co tasters there is no difference when you use pure gin instead of the cheapo vodka. One thought there was a difference, and he prefered the extra gin version.

Now I can rest easy knowing that I have made a valuable contribution to science.

[MkB]

Your dedication to the task is very much appreciated... Though we'd prefer to be invited to assist you in your experiments and testings...

Long live the Tiffany Case!

[Scrambled Eggs]

Your dedication to the task is very much appreciated... Though we'd prefer to be invited to assist you in your experiments and testings...

Long live the Tiffany Case!

Order a Tiffany Case at your local place. I'll be there in spirit.

[Aris007]

Now I can rest easy knowing that I have made a valuable contribution to science.

And the Scinece Nobel prize goes to...Scrambled Eggs!