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The Bond formula vs. QOS


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#31 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:25 PM

But in QOS we're only introduced to characters/storylines after Bond is: we meet Camille for the first time when Bond does, and only get a glimpse of Greene and Medrano when Camille leads Bond (and us) to them. This Bond-first narrative structure stays with QOS all the way to the end (we're only privvy to Medrano and Greene's confrontation in La Perla becuase Bond and Camille are outside getting ready to attack - indeed, Forster intercuts Camille infiltrating the hotel during this bit of bad guy business). This is incredibly expert writing/directing IMO, the best Fleming novels followed this IIRC (I think FRWL might be the only significant break with this...

...but if I have a preference it's with QOS's sleeker and more Bond-centric storytelling...


This is a fantastic post which articulates the time honoured Eon tradition of "ensuring that the audience is never ahead of Bond".

I mentioned this in another post but you've put it embelished my thoughts better than I could have myself.

I think I need to add this to my review.

Good stuff, blueman! :(

#32 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:36 PM

It's not that they want the silliness to return, they want something that at least screams Bond while being original, memorable, and familiar.

We're Bond fans and we defend the series religiously, but please call a spade a spade. Can the filmmakers be original



Can you give me an example or illustration of them being "original", besides doing a Bond Begins/Bond Originates adaptation of Ian Fleming's first book which they did in 2006?

Give me examples please. What would you do besides adapting the first Fleming book again?

#33 001carus

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:59 PM

The one liners are the second "Bondism" that has been "discarded" in QOS.

The Brosnan era type one liners are gone but Craig has his fair share in there. Opening the trunk of the Aston & saying, "It's time to get out," asking Miss Fields "Can you come over here? I can't find the stationary," telling Tanner that "Slate was a dead end," & Mathis asking if Bond thought Field had handcuffs with Bond replying "I hope so." All funny, or maybe more sarcastic, lines in the context of the scene in the movie & Craig's deliver of them is spot on. These types of quips work for me.

Now that Craig's Bond has moved on from the Vesper brooding mode into the spy we all know, I'm anxious to see how his Bond plays in a more traditional spy thriller.

Also, good post, 001carus.


Thanks Professor Dent. I wouldn't call these Bond lines "quips" though. They're just clever deliveries that while more definitive than the Fleming material, still offer that clever wit that spills from Fleming Bond.

I think it's very different to the one liners in a Brosnan films, which aren't clever - they're good for a laugh, but eventually become tiresome and lame, and nothing to do with Fleming Bond.

#34 Bradley De La Cloche

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 05:30 PM

Craig acts in it like he is James Bond, which makes the ending stupid because they can't say "he is now Bond ! coming next !" when the whole movie had him acting like Brosnan era Bond.


:(

WHEN??? WHEN DID HE ACT LIKE PIERCE BROSNAN??? THIS IS, BY A VERY LARGE MARGIN, THE STUPIDEST THING YOU'VE EVER SAID REGARDING THIS MOVIE! I MEAN, THAT WHOLE "END SCENE WAS ACTUALLY THE PTS" RANT WAS PRETTY DAFT, BUT THIS REALLY TAKES THE BLEEDING BISCUIT!! YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE NO SENSE!!!



Ahem. Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest. I'm sure you'll understand. :)

Edited by Bradley De La Cloche, 06 December 2008 - 05:37 PM.


#35 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 05:47 PM

Thank you, Bradley, for spelling out in big yellow capitals what we've all wanted to say for a long time. :(

#36 Bradley De La Cloche

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:02 PM

Much obliged, Mr. Blofeld. :) :(

#37 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:11 PM

Yep; it's not often that stamper gets rebuked so roundly. :(

Now, back to the topic: If anything, QOS is the anti-Bond formula.

#38 Eurospy

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:40 PM

Yep; it's not often that stamper gets rebuked so roundly. :(

Now, back to the topic: If anything, QOS is the anti-Bond formula.


Hmm, how so?

#39 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:50 PM


Now, back to the topic: If anything, QOS is the anti-Bond formula.

Hmm, how so?

Well, it takes all of the conventions and turns them on their head; Bond does not sleep with the main Bond girl, does not engage in groan-inducing quipping, and does not wander throughout the world making mischief with nobody noticing. :(

#40 blueman

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

But in QOS we're only introduced to characters/storylines after Bond is: we meet Camille for the first time when Bond does, and only get a glimpse of Greene and Medrano when Camille leads Bond (and us) to them. This Bond-first narrative structure stays with QOS all the way to the end (we're only privvy to Medrano and Greene's confrontation in La Perla becuase Bond and Camille are outside getting ready to attack - indeed, Forster intercuts Camille infiltrating the hotel during this bit of bad guy business). This is incredibly expert writing/directing IMO, the best Fleming novels followed this IIRC (I think FRWL might be the only significant break with this...

...but if I have a preference it's with QOS's sleeker and more Bond-centric storytelling...


This is a fantastic post which articulates the time honoured Eon tradition of "ensuring that the audience is never ahead of Bond".

I mentioned this in another post but you've put it embelished my thoughts better than I could have myself.

I think I need to add this to my review.

Good stuff, blueman! :(

Cheers, mate! :)

#41 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:03 PM

Now, back to the topic: If anything, QOS is the anti-Bond formula.


Yes, because QOS it's pretty much about just follow the current trend of the genre, unlike CR (Yes, they're two separate and very different movies!!) that updated the formula, or bring back it with a twist, as someone posted earlier.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 06 December 2008 - 11:45 PM.


#42 Mr_Wint

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:57 PM

I can find a lot of formula elements in QOS... But it's hard to say if the film was too predictable - I felt surprisingly bored and uninvolved during the whole film anyway.

I'm afraid that Q, Moneypenny or a "Bond, James Bond" introduction wouldn't make any difference at all.

#43 Bucky

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 11:05 PM

did anybody else feel more like they were seeing an ian fleming bond novel on screen instead of another james bond movie?

#44 erniecureo

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:06 AM

Not really.

To reitierate and/or expand from an earlier post, I didn't hate QoS, but I was disappointed. My big concerns were the direction/editing, and the plot.

Regarding the direction/editing, I'll give an example--the people I've spoken with who have seen the film thought (as I did) that during Mr. White's escape, M is shot. Now we may all be senile or inattentive, but I doubt it. Instead, I think it's just crappy filmmaking. If your audience doesn't know what the hell's happening, you're not doing your job.

Note: When I say that, I'm not referring to plot points, which can be withheld from the audience for any number of reasons. I'm talking about simply having the audience know what you're trying to show. Film is a visual medium, after all.

I wasn't crazy about the car chase, but I could tell what was going on, at least. Want to intercut a close-up of an eyeball? Ok, I can categorize that under style. That's a subjective thing. But simple storytelling is not, at least to me.

As to the plot, the Bolivian government thing seemed to me that the screenwriters were reaching. Plots can be big or little--I don't care. Steal a code machine (little) or stop a planet-wide plague (big), it all works for me. No rule says Bond has to save the human race every time he dons his tux.

But QoS seemed like it couldn't make up its mind. I found myself wondering why he'd go to the trouble to keep the current Bolivian government from being destabilized. In another couple of weeks, someone else will destabilize it. Saving the government of Bolivia is probably a full-time job.

Finally, in reference to the Bond 'formula,' I don't care about quips, or martinis, or "the line." To me, those aren't crucial elements of the formula, they're simply touchstones. But I'm getting tired of the 'Bond-as-antihero' thing, where he's a rogue agent. Perhaps one of the most novel concepts Fleming came up with (which played well in the earlier films, and was also handled very well in CR) was the "license to kill." It was unique, and still fascinates us. But if your hero kills whether he has official sanction or not, then he's just another shooter.

Here's what I want to see in the next film:

1. Bond as a government employee, with the full faith and trust of M. This doesn't mean Bond's a robot--for spice, you can still show Bond to be an individual, chafing at the restrictions he is under. Examples: M lightly reprimanding Bond in Goldfinger ("Colonel Smithers is giving the lecture, 007.") and Bond's "resignation" scene in OHMSS.

2. The British Secret Service as a capable, informed organization--one that recognizes a threat and dispatches Bond in response to it, rather than an entity riddled with traitors and collectively less intelligent than a single one of its agents. At one point, M says something like "Why haven't we heard of [Quantum]?" Why indeed?

I think one of the reasons that Q and Moneypenny are missing (whether you mind this or not) is due less to the 're-boot,' than the fact that they don't have anything to do in an organization that flies by the seat of its pants, as the MI6 of the last two films seems to be doing.

Finally, to end on a positive note--one of the best scenes of all the films was in QoS. When Bond delivers the "stationery" line to Fields, her reaction is absolutely perfect. Makes me smile to think of it, and easily ranks with Bond's interaction with Kerim Bey. If the whole film had been made with this sensibility, I think it'd be the best ever.

#45 Blonde Bond

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:39 AM

Let me just say that I'm a fan of every Bond incarnation. I'm glad that we have all these different type of Bonds to choose from. But Bond's currently in the right place to be. In the right hands. Let us not ruin it with clichés. The series is just not about the clichés. I'm sure their time will come again. But since the series seems to work quite well without them, let's not reintroduce them just for the sake of it and because of some vocal people that like to think otherwise. If EON would have listened the most vocal group, we wouln't have Daniel.



Jeez, that was one long post to write using no keyboard,

#46 Eurospy

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:09 AM

For my account, I loved QOS. Although that doesn't blind me to the fact that the PTS would be more tight if Bond simply drove into the MI6 safehouse and we had the rooftop chase as the PTS action sequence, M really did seem to have been shot, and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

But I don't get why it has been insisted on M not trusting Bond. Yes, she says that she doesn't trust him in CR and for most of QOS, but what one says and what one implies are many times opposite things.

To me it seems quite clear that she does trust him. Officially, she has to do one thing. Unffocially, is another matter altogether. Even if she never states so out loud. In QOS she canceled his credit cards, etc., but she knows that Bond is resourceful enough to get on by himself. Bond won't go by the book, he'll do the right thing, even if that thing is not comfortable to do. That's the Bond I like. And that's what makes him look like a rogue on occasions.

Regarding Quantum, MI 6 not knowing about it previously does not make it incompetent, it just makes Quantum much more creepy.

#47 blueman

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:13 AM

did anybody else feel more like they were seeing an ian fleming bond novel on screen instead of another james bond movie?

That's exactly how I've been characterizing QOS. :(

#48 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:30 AM

For my account, I loved QOS. Although that doesn't blind me to the fact that the PTS would be more tight if Bond simply drove into the MI6 safehouse and we had the rooftop chase as the PTS action sequence, M really did seem to have been shot, and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

To respond: That would be too much like TWINE (I like how punchy the PTS is now), M did run up the stairs (I saw her do it on second viewing), and the waitress, after nearly getting raped, runs out and presumably hides in a crevasse somewhere to be engulfed in the flames.

#49 Eurospy

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:45 AM

For my account, I loved QOS. Although that doesn't blind me to the fact that the PTS would be more tight if Bond simply drove into the MI6 safehouse and we had the rooftop chase as the PTS action sequence, M really did seem to have been shot, and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

To respond: That would be too much like TWINE (I like how punchy the PTS is now), M did run up the stairs (I saw her do it on second viewing), and the waitress, after nearly getting raped, runs out and presumably hides in a crevasse somewhere to be engulfed in the flames.


Thanks for clearing that up. I'll watch more carefully on my next viewing.

Although I still maintain my opinion on the PTS, the structure of the plot in that point might be indeed similar to TWINE that way, but having Bond tortured in DAD as an almost important plot point didn't stop the torture in CR from being important.

#50 Mr. Blofeld

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:16 AM

For my account, I loved QOS. Although that doesn't blind me to the fact that the PTS would be more tight if Bond simply drove into the MI6 safehouse and we had the rooftop chase as the PTS action sequence, M really did seem to have been shot, and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

To respond: That would be too much like TWINE (I like how punchy the PTS is now), M did run up the stairs (I saw her do it on second viewing), and the waitress, after nearly getting raped, runs out and presumably hides in a crevasse somewhere to be engulfed in the flames.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'll watch more carefully on my next viewing. Although I still maintain my opinion on the PTS, the structure of the plot in that point might be indeed similar to TWINE that way, but having Bond tortured in DAD as an almost important plot point didn't stop the torture in CR from being important.

Well, the torture in CR is more visceral and bloody, whereas the torture in DAD was too stylized to have any real impact on either the audience or the series; it's just a plot point to be thrown away later in the film, just like the shoulder injury in TWINE.

#51 Eurospy

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:34 AM

Well, the torture in CR is more visceral and bloody, whereas the torture in DAD was too stylized to have any real impact on either the audience or the series; it's just a plot point to be thrown away later in the film, just like the shoulder injury in TWINE.


I totally agree, I was making a comparison between plont points and structure/skeleton, thus I think that not having a car chase (I like the way it is shot btw, but wouldn't want all the ones to come to be shot like that) would remove a thin slice of fat.

I just don't think that having a PTS skeleton somewhat similar to TWINE's PTS would be that big a deal.

#52 Double-Oh Agent

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 06:53 AM

...and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

Yeah, Forster takes the time out of a frantic foot chase to show what happened to an innocent bystander who we barely saw get shot during the Palio horse race, but he doesn't show how the Perla de las Dunas receptionist survives/not survives an exploding hotel moments after Camille saves her from a near-rape experience we saw several seconds of? :(

#53 blueman

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 07:01 AM

...and I have no idea to happened to the girl in the desert hotel.

Yeah, Forster takes the time out of a frantic foot chase to show what happened to an innocent bystander who we barely saw get shot during the Palio horse race, but he doesn't show how the Perla de las Dunas receptionist survives/not survives an exploding hotel moments after Camille saves her from a near-rape experience we saw several seconds of? :(

Until I read these comments today about the hotel girl, never thought about it even after seeing QOS 4 times now. I saw the hotel girl get saved from an evil fate and easily assumed - today, not when I was watching the film - that she got away from the building as easily as Greene and his chopped up foot did.

#54 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:12 AM

Regarding the direction/editing, I'll give an example--the people I've spoken with who have seen the film thought (as I did) that during Mr. White's escape, M is shot. Now we may all be senile or inattentive, but I doubt it. Instead, I think it's just crappy filmmaking. If your audience doesn't know what the hell's happening, you're not doing your job.

Note: When I say that, I'm not referring to plot points, which can be withheld from the audience for any number of reasons. I'm talking about simply having the audience know what you're trying to show. Film is a visual medium, after all.


Totally agree with this. I doesn't make a better film the necessity to see it over and over again, just to catch what's really happening on the screen.

It's a good thing that a movie leave you thinking afterwards, giving you material to discuss about the plot, the acting or the filmmaking. But another thing, it's that the director and his crew doesn't let you follow the action, just to make you 'participant' of that (like the genius of Dan Bradley declared). I mean, c'mon let's face it, QOS isn't like Buñuel's Perro Andaluz or Antonioni's Blow Up, where it could be audience work, to make sense of what they see.

I'm not saying that all QOS is confusing, but definitely the action sequences with his style of extreme close ups and fast cuts, messed up the film.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 07 December 2008 - 09:19 AM.


#55 blueman

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:52 AM

I'm not saying that all QOS is confusing, but definitely the action sequences with his style of extreme close ups and fast cuts, made the film great.

Fixed it for ya. :(

#56 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 11:07 AM

I'm not saying that all QOS is confusing, but definitely the action sequences with his style of extreme close ups and fast cuts, made the film great.

Fixed it for ya. :(

I would prefer that you fix the action sequences, thus everybody could follow what's happening. Can you do that?? I would much appreciate.


I think the action in QOS could be really great, if the director and his crew would have the courtesy of let us really watch it. Because, the few of the stunts that I can actually see, seems pretty good.

#57 Mr_Wint

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:16 PM

For my account, I loved QOS. Although that doesn't blind me to the fact that the PTS would be more tight if Bond simply drove into the MI6 safehouse and we had the rooftop chase as the PTS action sequence, (...)

Yes, that would've been an improvement. Especially if they skipped the car chase.

Gunbarrel
Cut to: View over Siena
Bond enters the tunnel.
Interrogation Scene
Chase Sequence
Bond's shot leads us into the...
Main titles
Titles fades out over London.

#58 ImTheMoneypenny

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:36 PM

But in QOS we're only introduced to characters/storylines after Bond is: we meet Camille for the first time when Bond does, and only get a glimpse of Greene and Medrano when Camille leads Bond (and us) to them. This Bond-first narrative structure stays with QOS all the way to the end (we're only privvy to Medrano and Greene's confrontation in La Perla becuase Bond and Camille are outside getting ready to attack - indeed, Forster intercuts Camille infiltrating the hotel during this bit of bad guy business). This is incredibly expert writing/directing IMO, the best Fleming novels followed this IIRC (I think FRWL might be the only significant break with this...

...but if I have a preference it's with QOS's sleeker and more Bond-centric storytelling...


This is a fantastic post which articulates the time honoured Eon tradition of "ensuring that the audience is never ahead of Bond".

I mentioned this in another post but you've put it embelished my thoughts better than I could have myself.

I think I need to add this to my review.

Good stuff, blueman! :)


Agreed. That's good stuff blueman, well said! :) :(

#59 Fiona Volpe lover

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:20 PM

We all know that only a small minority of "fans" don't like Q0S. They're a vocal minority.

Look at the box office.

There's no accounting for a vocal minority who love their dumbed-down story-telling.

But the MAJORITY of Bond fans *do* like Q0S and it's 'spirit'.


You see that's the kind of sarky comment that winds me up. Those of us who disliked QOS aren't taking little picks at people who do but those who did like it are constantly being a bit rude about those who don't. Personally I do enjoy dumbed-down story telling sometimes but sophisticated story telling is fine with me too in the right film. What I realy dislike is BAD STORY TELLING. I saw nothing sophisticated in the story telling of QOS, in fact I thought it was pretty dumb, but not in an entertaining way.

It seems that if you dislike QOS you're not a TRUE Bond fan, which is nonsense. There are plenty of people who dislike AVTAK and DAD, yet that's okay I suppose, they're still Bond fans. What total nonsense....

#60 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:36 PM

We all know that only a small minority of "fans" don't like Q0S. They're a vocal minority.

Look at the box office.

There's no accounting for a vocal minority who love their dumbed-down story-telling.

But the MAJORITY of Bond fans *do* like Q0S and it's 'spirit'.


You see that's the kind of sarky comment that winds me up. Those of us who disliked QOS aren't taking little picks at people who do but those who did like it are constantly being a bit rude about those who don't. Personally I do enjoy dumbed-down story telling sometimes but sophisticated story telling is fine with me too in the right film. What I realy dislike is BAD STORY TELLING. I saw nothing sophisticated in the story telling of QOS, in fact I thought it was pretty dumb, but not in an entertaining way.

It seems that if you dislike QOS you're not a TRUE Bond fan, which is nonsense. There are plenty of people who dislike AVTAK and DAD, yet that's okay I suppose, they're still Bond fans. What total nonsense....


Well, I apologise if i've inadvertently thrown you in to the mix.

What I meant to say is that Q0S doesn't spoon-feed you information. You have to pay attention. Perhaps you're the exception and you actually did pay attention, got everything the first time, but still didn't like how it played out.

The other thing I ment to say is that, judging by the poll, the majority here like Q0S. Only a minority don't like it.

Lastly, if you look at all the returns from Domestic and International and adjust for currency and disinflationary factors which are consuming the global economies, then the numbers for Q0S stack up well in relation to the other two Bond movies this decade.