77 replies to this topic

[Mr_Wint]

I enjoy LALD too. But I belive that the whole film would be significantly improved if Barry did the music.

Maybe it would have. But I don't think it would have been improved if David Arnold did it, and that's really the discussion here. We're looking at the world of non-Barry composers compared against each-other, and how successful each has been. As far as non-Barry composers go, Martin was the only one, in my mind, to really give Bond music that "cool" sound, making him one of the most successful non-Barry composers.

You said before that Martins's score was a "wonderful change of pace". Hence, my comment about Barry.

I don't mind Holmes experimenting a little bit. But leave it to Ocean's fourteen rather than the next Bondfilm.

But experimentation and variety is the bread-and-butter of the Bond franchise, and Holmes' jazzy sound already lends him to Bond music. It's not a dramatic change, by any stretch, and would probably overall produce - in my mind - a more Bondian score than Arnold has so far managed, just because he'd bring "jazzy cool" back into the mix.

When it comes to Bond it seems like the best work is always produced whenever they decide to go back to basic. That is especially true for the Bondmusic.

I'm not that familiar with Holme's work. But what I've heard doesn't strike me as instantly memorable.

It is obvious that purely orchestral and thematic film scores aren't as common as they used to be. This is an excellent chance for Bond to stick out from the rest these days. This type of sound also happens to work extremely well with the kind of epic storytelling we have in the Bondfilms (normally).

[darthbond]

This is good, because this is the only composer of Bond scores that I have.

Tomorrow Never Dies: Company Car, Kowloon Bay

TWINE: Welcome to Baku, Casino, Remember Pleasure

Die Another Day: Welcome to Cuba

Casino Royale: (Darn, This is a hard one) I love the whole thing, but standouts include Trip Aces, Dinner Jackets, The End of An Aston Martin, The Bad Die Young, The Switch, The Bitch is Dead, and The Name is Bond, James Bond

Quantum of Solace: (I'm just getting used to this one) Inside Man, Bond in Haiti, Night at the Opera, Talamone, Bolivian Taxi Ride, Field Trip, Forgive Yourself, Camille’s Story, Oil Fields, and I Never Left

darthbond

[Harmsway]

You said before that Martins's score was a "wonderful change of pace". Hence, my comment about Barry.

Ah. Well, yeah, I did. And I'm not sure LIVE AND LET DIE would have been improved if Barry did it. The score itself might - might - have been more varied and accomplished, taken as a separate entity.

But I'm not sure Barry would have produced a score that suited the film as much as Martin's funkified style. After all, LIVE AND LET DIE is very much drawing on blaxploitation. Furthermore, I really do think the overall Bond music history is richer for having a very different style form the typical Barry imitation.

When it comes to Bond it seems like the best work is always produced whenever they decide to go back to basic.

I think returning to a jazzy-style score is going back to basics. It's going back to 1964.

It is obvious that purely orchestral and thematic film scores aren't as common as they used to be.

There are oodles upon oodles of straight-up orchestral/thematic film scores. They're a dime a dozen. If Bond wants to stand out, he'll stand out more by returning to a jazzy score than he will by sticking with the standard orchestral stuff.

This type of sound also happens to work extremely well with the kind of epic storytelling we have in the Bondfilms (normally).

Um, sure. But maybe it's time to get back to the heart of Bond music, which is jazz. Have we all forgotten that Bond music found its footing in scores like GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE? That's what I want to get back to, albeit in a contemporary way (hence David Holmes).

[Poker Face]

"Hamburg break in" and "Hamburg break out" in TND. It rocks !!

Edited by Poker Face, 04 December 2008 - 10:59 AM.

[Icephoenix]

I have to say I've grown quite fond of 'Time To Get Out' after watching the movie. It accompanies the visuals perfectly - a dark and mysterious opening - and then BAM!

[joshkhenderson]

Pursuit at Port au Prince - QOS

It has two great parts (at 2:55 and again around 4:30) where it slows down and comes roaring back, then the quiet part at the end with the subtle Bond theme built in. Very frenetic, but very dramatic at the same time.

[Judo chop]

But maybe it's time to get back to the heart of Bond music, which is jazz. Have we all forgotten that Bond music found its footing in scores like GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE? That's what I want to get back to, albeit in a contemporary way (hence David Holmes).

Harms, what have you heard from Holmes other than what he's done in the OCEAN'S films (if anything)? I can't bring myself to watch ANALYZE THAT, and I've not even heard of any of his other films. Per IMDB.

I agree, by the way. I'm tired of the big orchestrations and would welcome a jazzier vibe. I also find myself really enjoying some experimental percussive explorations, which is what turned me on to the soundtrack in ATONEMENT.

[B. Brown]

Quantum of Solace - The Dead Don't Care About Vengeance

[Harmsway]

But maybe it's time to get back to the heart of Bond music, which is jazz. Have we all forgotten that Bond music found its footing in scores like GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE? That's what I want to get back to, albeit in a contemporary way (hence David Holmes).

Harms, what have you heard from Holmes other than what he's done in the OCEAN'S films (if anything)? I can't bring myself to watch ANALYZE THAT, and I've not even heard of any of his other films. Per IMDB.

I've heard a few of his solo albums (THIS FILM'S CRAP LET'S SLASH THE SEATS, THE HOLY PICTURES, and LET'S GET KILLED - the latter of which features his take on the Bond theme), I've also heard OUT OF SIGHT and CODE 46. I'm desperately trying to get ahold of his rejected score for THE GOOD GERMAN, which is apparently something really different for him, and has been described as "David Bowie meets Philip Glass."

I agree, by the way. I'm tired of the big orchestrations and would welcome a jazzier vibe. I also find myself really enjoying some experimental percussive explorations, which is what turned me on to the soundtrack in ATONEMENT.

Glad to see I'm not alone on this one.

[Mr_Wint]

You said before that Martins's score was a "wonderful change of pace". Hence, my comment about Barry.

Ah. Well, yeah, I did. And I'm not sure LIVE AND LET DIE would have been improved if Barry did it. The score itself might - might - have been more varied and accomplished, taken as a separate entity.

But I'm not sure Barry would have produced a score that suited the film as much as Martin's funkified style. After all, LIVE AND LET DIE is very much drawing on blaxploitation. Furthermore, I really do think the overall Bond music history is richer for having a very different style form the typical Barry imitation.

John Barry had his creative peak around this time so I'm 100% sure that LALD would've been another brilliant score like YOLT, OHMSS and DAF before it. Just think about how much new material there is in this film for Barry to dig into; A new Bond, voodoo, crocodiles, San Monique etc. etc. It would be another opportunity for him to recreate the Bondsound in a completely different setting. It hurts to even think about it...

This type of sound also happens to work extremely well with the kind of epic storytelling we have in the Bondfilms (normally).

Um, sure. But maybe it's time to get back to the heart of Bond music, which is jazz. Have we all forgotten that Bond music found its footing in scores like GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL and ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE? That's what I want to get back to, albeit in a contemporary way (hence David Holmes).

I think you simplify things too much. There is a gigantic step between jazz music and the majestic score he produced to OHMSS, for instance. Barry's background in Jazz music (The John Barry Seven) helped him to shape the sound for the Bondfilms. But Barry's Bondsound is for more pompous, provocative and cinematic than anything found in the traditional Jazz music. The latter will always belong to a certain era and lacks the clean, timeless, appeal of Barry's filmmusic.

[Harmsway]

John Barry had his creative peak around this time so I'm 100% sure that LALD would've been another brilliant score like YOLT, OHMSS and DAF before it.

I'm not so sure. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, while terrific, isn't the equal of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE or ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, and looking at the score he produced for THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN in same general time period (it's one of his weakest), I don't think there's any guarantees about quality.

There is a gigantic step between jazz music and the majestic score he produced to OHMSS, for instance.

"Gigantic step"? I'm not sure I agree, just because of how extremely jazz-influenced ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE was. Sure, it's more orchestral than "just" jazz music, but it'd be wrong to understate how jazzy it really is (and it's not even as outright jazzy as some of the other scores from around that period, ala GOLDFINGER, THUNDERBALL, and especially the lounge music-dominated DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER).

The latter will always belong to a certain era and lacks the clean, timeless, appeal of Barry's filmmusic.

Barry's film music does belong to a certain era, though. Just like jazz. Barry's early Bond scores are undeniably 1960s. They're not just "classic" film composition. They're very much of their era, even if they're still striking today.

Furthermore, the best jazz music from that period is just as enduring as any of Barry's 1960s Bond music.

[plankattack]

Barry's scores do belong to an era, but that era is Bond, rather than a point in time. Obviously the ten or eleven he did make up a large part of his cv, but whenever you hear any of his others (Out of Africa, Mercury Rising) I can instantly identify them as his, and that fact that true or not, they sound like they're re-heated (or maybe wouldn't be out-of-place in) from a Bond film. With the exception of The Ipcress File which I think is very non-Bondian.

David Holmes' name is thrown out alot and I think he might work. His Out of Sight soundtrack is terrific (I'm not per se a buyer of soundtracks but I bought that immediately) but is his work now much associated with Soderbergh, in the way that Kamen's LTK soundtrack sounded like a Die Hard or a Lethal Weapon?

Another point, and correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not up to speed on how it all works - Holmes, like some of the other names, has consistently worked on soundtracks that are a mix of their own work and other music. Would this have any influence on how they do a Bond? Anytime outside music, with a finite time and place, appear in a Bond, it always strikes me as out-of-place. Just a personal thing. For example, London Calling is one of the greatest songs ever from one of the greatest albums ever, but what it's doing accompanying Gustav Graves falling from the sky in DAD is beyond me completely.

Edited by plankattack, 06 December 2008 - 12:45 AM.

[Mr_Wint]

John Barry had his creative peak around this time so I'm 100% sure that LALD would've been another brilliant score like YOLT, OHMSS and DAF before it.

I'm not so sure. DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, while terrific, isn't the equal of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE or ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE, and looking at the score he produced for THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN in same general time period (it's one of his weakest), I don't think there's any guarantees about quality.

I think TMWTGG is a great score and a major improvement over LALD in every way. So I fail to see what point you are trying to make.

The latter will always belong to a certain era and lacks the clean, timeless, appeal of Barry's filmmusic.

Barry's film music does belong to a certain era, though. Just like jazz. Barry's early Bond scores are undeniably 1960s. They're not just "classic" film composition. They're very much of their era, even if they're still striking today.

It is clear that Barry very much ignored the contemporary music at that time, and that is one reason why his music is still striking today.

[rafterman]

I really like "Time to get out" from Quantum of Solace.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Time to Get Out, Oil Fields and Night at the Opera from QOS

CR is even harder to narrow down for me. African Rundown, Blunt Instrument, Miami International and The Switch are all favorites.

DAD - Welcome to Cuba, 007

TWINE, I don't really remember, I haven't watched it lately.

TND- White Knight

[Harmsway]

Barry's scores do belong to an era, but that era is Bond, rather than a point in time.

I've been speaking specifically of the early Barry Bond scores... so 1963-1971, approximately. Barry's style for Bond changed as time went on, and it lost a lot of the lounge music flavor it had previously.

David Holmes' name is thrown out alot and I think he might work. His Out of Sight soundtrack is terrific (I'm not per se a buyer of soundtracks but I bought that immediately) but is his work now much associated with Soderbergh, in the way that Kamen's LTK soundtrack sounded like a Die Hard or a Lethal Weapon?

I don't think so, especially since Holmes is evolving in sound and would naturally do something a bit different than he's done before if handed the duties for Bond.

Another point, and correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not up to speed on how it all works - Holmes, like some of the other names, has consistently worked on soundtracks that are a mix of their own work and other music.

Holmes has not consistently operated this way. That was how the OCEAN'S soundtracks were done, but there have been soundtracks that were truly his.

At any rate, I'm not putting my foot down on Holmes. I just want somebody with a jazzy background and style.

I think TMWTGG is a great score and a major improvement over LALD in every way. So I fail to see what point you are trying to make.

Well, I think LIVE AND LET DIE is a superior score to THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN (which I find forgettable in practically every way). So I suppose that's my point.

It is clear that Barry very much ignored the contemporary music at that time, and that is one reason why his music is still striking today.

Barry did create something of his own sound, but he certainly didn't "ignore" the sound of the time, either. He's both similar and distinct, and his music is certainly still identified with the 1960s.

[sharpshooter]

Off topic, but I really love George Martin’s score for Live and Let Die. He blended Paul’s song in perfectly, changed up the tempo, set a great mood and just made it generally fun to listen to. Barry is Bond music, but Martin is the greatest record producer of all time. I wish he did more Bond scores.

[Mr_Wint]

Barry did create something of his own sound, but he certainly didn't "ignore" the sound of the time, either.

It is safe to say that he ignored contemporary music far, far more than Monty Norman, George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch and Bill Conti did. It's kinda hard to deny, even for you.

[Harmsway]

It is safe to say that he ignored contemporary music far, far more than Monty Norman, George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch and Bill Conti did.

I still dislike the language of "ignoring" contemporary music, because Barry did nothing of the sort. It creates a false picture. Yes, Barry created a distinctive sound, which sets him apart in his own period moreso than Norman, Hamlisch, or Conti are set apart in theirs.

But did he ignore the music of his period? No, I don't at all agree that he did. He was drawing on a lot of his jazz contemporaries, and took what he liked.

[deth]

It is safe to say that he ignored contemporary music far, far more than Monty Norman, George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch and Bill Conti did.

But did he ignore the music of his period? No, I don't at all agree that he did. He was drawing on a lot of his jazz contemporaries at the time, and took what he liked.

eXACTLY! "music of the time" doesn't have to only mean pop music of the time...

[Mr_Wint]

It is safe to say that he ignored contemporary music far, far more than Monty Norman, George Martin, Marvin Hamlisch and Bill Conti did.

I still dislike the language of "ignoring" contemporary music, because Barry did nothing of the sort. It creates a false picture. Yes, Barry created a distinctive sound, which sets him apart in his own period moreso than Norman, Hamlisch, or Conti are set apart in theirs.

But did he ignore the music of his period? No, I don't at all agree that he did. He was drawing on a lot of his jazz contemporaries, and took what he liked.

I know that you have a strong desire to make Bond as contemporary as possible so I can understand that this is not your language. But no matter what you like or dislike, it is hard to deny that Barry's Bondmusic is less dated than most of the soundtrack music created in the 60s, 70s and 80s (I am not the only one who have noticed this...). When you listen to Bassey's "Diamonds Are Forever" it is hard to place it in any kind of music period, and that quality - which Barry brought to all his Bondfilms - is an incredible asset when we look back at them today.

[Harmsway]

I know that you have a strong desire to make Bond as contemporary as possible so I can understand that this is not your language.

It's not just an issue of my agenda. Regardless of how distinct you think Barry was from his contemporaries in the 1960s, the language is flat-out misleading and, well, wrong.

But no matter what you like or dislike, it is hard to deny that Barry's Bondmusic is less dated than most of the soundtrack music created in the 60s, 70s and 80s (I am not the only one who have noticed this...).

But this is more a result of quality than anything. Barry's music is just very, very good, and was very influential, and thus it survives as time goes on. It has very little to do with being of its era or not.

When you listen to Bassey's "Diamonds Are Forever" it is hard to place it in any kind of music period

No, it's not.

[Mr_Wint]

But no matter what you like or dislike, it is hard to deny that Barry's Bondmusic is less dated than most of the soundtrack music created in the 60s, 70s and 80s (I am not the only one who have noticed this...).

But this is more a result of quality than anything. Barry's music is just very, very good, and was very influential, and thus it survives as time goes on. It has very little to do with being of its era or not.

It is hard for anyone to claim that Marvin Hamlisch is not talented. And George Martins music happens to be very, very good and influential too... and yet, LALD feels incredibly dated compared to DAF/TMWTGG. All this is a little bit hard to explain with your theory.

[Harmsway]

It is hard for anyone to claim that Marvin Hamlisch is not talented.

I will. His score for THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, for example, is terrible, and his non-Bond work isn't really anything special, either.

And George Martins music happens to be very, very good and influential too and yet, LALD feels incredibly dated compared to DAF/TMWTGG.

Well, you have to nuance that a bit. Martin's work outside of Bond was influential, and it has survived.

But his score for LIVE AND LET DIE, however, has not been recognized as anything special in and of itself, nor should it be. I've already made it clear that my praise for Martin's LIVE AND LET DIE score had less to do with its individual merits and more to do with how well it suited the film.

[Mr_Wint]

It is hard for anyone to claim that Marvin Hamlisch is not talented.

I will. His score for THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, for example, is terrible, and his non-Bond work isn't really anything special, either.

It's funny that you say that when Hamlisch score is the only Bondscore to earn an academy award nomination (Hamlisch has 1 Oscar and 6-8 nominations). Something that is impossible to understand when we look back at it today. Shows how hard it was to appreciate Barry's talent, even for those who claim to know what talent is when they see/hear it...

And George Martins music happens to be very, very good and influential too and yet, LALD feels incredibly dated compared to DAF/TMWTGG.

Well, you have to nuance that a bit. Martin's work outside of Bond was influential, and it has survived.

Let's nuance it a bit more by actually putting Martin's work outside of Bond in Diamonds Are Forever. Now, this is clearly produced by someone with talent. Check. It is influential. Check. It has survived. Check. But, does it make DAF less or more dated? Use your imagination.

[Harmsway]

It's funny that you say that when Hamlisch score is the only Bondscore to earn an academy award nomination (Hamlisch has 1 Oscar and 6-8 nominations).

Well, the Academy has always had a dubious history. Really hit and miss, with an emphasis on the miss.

Let's nuance it a bit more by actually putting Martin's work outside of Bond in Diamonds Are Forever.

A silly exercise which proves nothing. The music isn't suited or intended for Bond, so naturally it doesn't really work.

[Mr. Blofeld]

How did we get from White Knight to discussing the merits of Live and Let Die?

Anyhow, my choice of favorite David Arnold track is Inside Man, from Quantum of Solace.

[Mr_Wint]

(...) naturally it doesn't really work.

Thank You.

[Harmsway]

Thank You.

Don't quote me out of context. My whole point is that your hypothetical scenario was irrelevant to anything being discussed.

[Publius]

I'm addicted to the often haunting QoS score right now (unsurprisingly), especially Night at the Opera and The Dead Don't Care About Vengeance. However, my absolute favorite is currently Time to Get Out, which is about as thrilling an action cue as Arnold has ever concocted (I usually prefer his non-action scoring).

He also had a lot of good stuff in CR, but overall I'm still in favor of trying someone new.