176 replies to this topic

[Judo chop]

Well, the infiltration in Hong Kong was extraneous, and I've said as much before in commentary on THE DARK KNIGHT. It was one area in THE DARK KNIGHT where things should have been streamlined. But it's certainly no more extraneous than QUANTUM OF SOLACE's boat chase or plane chase, and, I'll add, it's far more entertaining than either.

But the two biggies I'm thinking about are the vehicle chase, which is definitely THE DARK KNIGHT's biggest affair, and the finale with the Joker. You've already expressed your distaste for the latter, and I won't bother arguing about it, but I'm sure you remember enough about it to know what's at stake there narratively speaking. But as for the vehicle chase, you have the Joker trying to kill Harvey Dent (who's pretending to be Batman), and Batman trying to protect Dent and get the Joker. So it's really all about the characters, and eventually it boils down to just Batman/Joker in that wonderful showdown.

The boat chase is insipid in execution, but not extraneous. I think it’s a perfect situation for an action sequence. Bond is completely clueless. He’s essentially blind to everything around him, holding on to his one and only lead, that being Camille. He follows. To expedite the story, we are presented with Camille’s situation and see her get passed to Medrano as a piece of entertainment.

It makes complete sense for Bond to go after Camille, being who he is, and since Medrano is not likely just to hand her over, it results in an action sequence.

I’m with you that the sequence is for the most part dull, and ends inexplicably, but I don’t agree that it is unnecessary.

The plane sequence is much less necessary narrative-wise, and in that regard can feel a contrived. After all, we HAVE to get Bond into a sinkhole somehow, and we HAVE to have an action sequence which takes place in air, being one of the four elements, so… <snap!> A dive from an airplane!

But I’m on the up and up with how it works in execution. I think it’s a thrill. I’m in agreement with Hilde’s post above. If it’s DAD, it’s DAD perfected. Even better if that was the actually intent, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find it was.

As for the Bat-Maannn… I will certainly give him another chance. And this time, I will be looking at particulars.

[Judo chop]

Bond and Camille have the makings of a great conversation before they're rudely interrupted. I wish they'd continued talking for a bit, because it showed a nice side of Camille other than the surly, vengeance-seeking side which she displays for most of the flick.

Do you wish for more? I don't know. I can see it working either way. More might be good, but allowing only that one glipse cut short is creative in of itself. It certainly speaks to that 'taughtness' Forster promised.

Perhaps leaving us wishing for more is the point?

[Harmsway]

The boat chase is insipid in design, but not extraneous.

Well, I didn't actually call it extraneous in and of itself - I just said that the bit in THE DARK KNIGHT is roughly just as necessary. Both sequences have plot points. Batman getting Lau is a necessary plot point. Just like Bond getting info from Camille is a necessary plot point. I'm just sayin' that in both cases the plot points could have been handled in a much briefer fashion, without slowing down the story long enough for a big, bold action sequence.

I actually think that it's more damaging in QUANTUM OF SOLACE's case to pad out the story so much. THE DARK KNIGHT's an epic, and with epics, you expect to get some fat. But QUANTUM OF SOLACE is a slim novella of a Bond film. Padding out a story like that just doesn't feel right... QUANTUM OF SOLACE should be as lean and mean as Forster promised, but it still feels fatty.

The plane sequence is much less necessary narrative-wise, and in that regard can feel a contrived. After all, we HAVE to get Bond into a sinkhole somehow, and we HAVE to have an action sequence which takes place in air, being one of the four elements, so… <snap!> A dive from an airplane!

Quite so.

But I’m on the up and up with how it works in execution. I think it’s a thrill.

I don't, even excluding its climax. And I don't know quite what it was. I mean, I was championing this sequence from the trailers long before I ever saw it. Thought it looked utterly classic, and likely to be the action highlight of QUANTUM OF SOLACE.

But something about it fails to involve me. Perhaps it's just the narrative contrivance of it all. Perhaps it's that, at that point in the film, I was feeling burnt-out on the action. Perhaps it's that, despite the aesthetic pleasure of the sequence, nothing about the staging is particularly inventive. Perhaps it's just the editing, which is too quick to really let the tension sink in.

[HildebrandRarity]

And before that, that shot of a suited Bond approaching the dark, leather-faced old Bolivian in the chocolate bomber jacket with the silver DC3 behind and the back-drop of the beige desert...ing awsome shot.

It could have been something out of a techicolour version of "CASABLANCA".

Beautiful film-making.

I did rather like that, and I do love the atmosphere of the plane in the desert.

Bond and Camille have the makings of a great conversation before they're rudely interrupted. I wish they'd continued talking for a bit, because it showed a nice side of Camille other than the surly, vengeance-seeking side which she displays for most of the flick.

But the rude interruption was shocking. I was shocked. No amout of spoilerific information prepared me for that nice conversation being blasted away by the jet fighter's piercing bullets. I saw the snippet on the Sony website and I knew an attack would come. I was totally prepared for the attack having viewed the footage - Sony had released - over and over again.

But when it came, it came out of the blue and was a sheer jolt the first time I saw the movie on the Thursday midnite viewing of opening weekend.

[Harmsway]

But the rude interruption was shocking.

Sure, and that's all well and good. But couldn't the unanticipated rude interruption have come after some more conversation?

[Judo chop]

But something about it fails to involve me. Perhaps it's just the narrative contrivance of it all. Perhaps it's that, at that point in the film, I was feeling burnt-out on the action. Perhaps it's that, despite the aesthetic pleasure of the sequence, nothing about the staging is particularly inventive. Perhaps it's just the editing, which is too quick to really let the tension sink in.

I’m just now appreciating the fact that Camille’s and Bond’s one casual moment is suddenly interrupted by gunfire. I’m beginning to think that moment is made all the more precious because of it.

I also appreciate that Bond is given a clunky, unarmed tool in the DC10 (10, is it?) and is forced to defeat an agile fighter plane using his wits and ‘natural surroundings’, which includes the landscape of course, but also the coincidence of an engine spurting black smoke. Bond takes damage from an aggressor, and uses that damage to defeat the aggressor. It’s especially nice after a whole lot of seeing Bond simply manhandling other enemies. It proves he can do both.

I admire the fact that Bond needs to climb higher in order to have any time to survive the fall at all, but the script is mature enough not to announce his plans to us.

As Hilde said, the plane creaks with pressure as it reaches its zenith, and I feel the literal gravity of the situation as the engines falter and the plane comes to a stop.

Can I ask? How many times have you seen it, Harms? It's better each time for me.

[Harmsway]

I’m just now appreciating the fact that Camille’s and Bond’s one casual moment is suddenly interrupted by gunfire. I’m beginning to think that moment is made all the more precious because of it.

It could have that effect, but I think the moment is so brief that rather than being emphasized, it's overshadowed. It needed to be a little longer than it was.

I also appreciate that Bond is given a clunky, unarmed tool in the DC10 (10, is it?) and is forced to defeat an agile fighter plane using his wits and ‘natural surroundings’, which includes the landscape of course, but also the coincidence of an engine spurting black smoke. Bond takes damage from an aggressor, and uses that damage to defeat the aggressor. It’s especially nice after a whole lot of seeing Bond simply manhandling other enemies. It proves he can do both.

I admire the fact that Bond needs to climb higher in order to have any time to survive the fall at all, but the script is mature enough not to announce his plans to us.

As Hilde said, the plane creaks with pressure as it reaches its zenith, and I feel the literal gravity of the situation as the engines falter and the plane comes to a stop.

I love all of that in concept. Just not in execution.

(Oh, and it's a DC3, not a DC10.)

Can I ask? How many times have you seen it, Harms? It's better each time for me.

Four times.

[Judo chop]

I give up.

[Santa]

I'm with Harmsway. The sequence was e and should have been dropped.

[Judo chop]

Ugh. And now Bondian joins the fray! Where are my peeps?! I cannot do this alone!!!

I think some people need to revisit Bond 17-20 again and then they can tell me how awful the plane scene was.

[Daddy Bond]

Ugh. And now Bondian joins the fray! Where are my peeps?! I cannot do this alone!!!

I think some people need to revisit Bond 17-20 again and then they can tell me how awful the plane scene was.

I've got your back.

[JimmyBond]

Bond and Camille have the makings of a great conversation before they're rudely interrupted.

You gotta admit though, whipping the camera around the way Forster does from Bond and Camille to the view outside of the cockpit window really does a helleva job of jolting you into the action.

[Colonel Moon]

As films, I'd rank THE DARK KNIGHT and QUANTUM OF SOLACE as about as good as each other. Both have wonderful elements and are unusually rich (for franchise flicks) in atmosphere, characterisation and - no doubt - Meaning™, and on a technical level they're both gourmet experiences. However, both have their share of flaws.

I will, however, say this: *drumroll* there's nothing in TDK that's remotely as shark-jumping or fridge-nuking as that---- that thing involving the "freefall" and "instant recovery". Ugh. It's just too horrid for words. It's wholly possible that nothing in the entire history of Eon Productions has ever dropped the ball so badly.

So I must conclude - with no small amount of reluctance - that, because TDK does not make a fool of itself in the way that QoS does, TDK ends up "pwning" QoS.

I have spoken.

Brosnan's halo jump in TND is far worse because of the height he falls from.

As a note: water isn't soft after you hit it with enough force - it's like hitting rock or concrete. Brosnan should have been DEAD - D.E.A.D.- DEAD in TND.

Another guy who thinks he knows everything about HALO jumps

[mrsbonds_ppk]

Yes, this parachute scene was absolute garbage. When they hit the ground..omg..I was like wtf was that? And the only place in Brosnan's films that I've seen similar things was in Die Another Day.

[00Twelve]

I'm with Judo here. I wasn't disappointed with the plane chase/freefall in the slightest. Comparing the effects to DAD's is evidence of not having seen DAD in a while. It's no contest. Not even in the same solar system. Just saw that scene in DAD on Spike the other day...it's jaw-droppingly unconvincing. Like, end-of-"Air Force One"-unconvincing.

I personally found the freefall easily as gripping as MR's (minus a mid-air fight), and a damn sight more thrilling than any of the umpteen aerial descents of the Broz era.

It's proving to be a pretty futile mission to justify the sequence if it just doesn't jibe with others of us, so I just call it as I see it. Worked great for me, sorry it's not for all of us.

[DaveBond21]

Does anyone think that the landing may have been more realistic if they had landed in water? They were going to find it anyway, so why not have them land in one of those underground lakes?

I know they wanted to have Camille's backstory discussed before finding the water, but it would have made their surviving the freefall a little more realistic.

[jamie00007]

People have been known to get up and walk away with little more than bruises after their shoots fail to open at all. Its a freak thing (theory is that they get a lucky updraft or something right before they hit which breaks the fall), but its not impossible, and I would say that surviving after the shoot opens just before you hit the ground is more possible even though its extremely unlikely. So I have no problem with that scene at all. It is a James Bond movie after all and far more unlikely things have happened frequently. I would have more of a problem if it was something Bond planned, like the freefall in the opening of GE, but as a lucky fluke I can accept it. Though I agree with DaveBond, they should have just had them land in water.

[Double-Oh Agent]

All they had to do was have the parachute open sooner. I'd have it happen either just after they entered the sinkhole or anywhere up to their being halfway down the sinkhole. But opening the chute an instant before landing on solid ground is very unrealistic and to me is the major problem with the skydiving scene.

[sharpshooter]

All they had to do was have the parachute open sooner.

Yes, simple as that.

[SecretAgentFan]

Once again - we don´t know how much time has passed between landing and getting up again. So, we have to assume that Bond and Camille were not just dusting each other up and walking around after hitting the ground. They are not Richard Kiel, you know?

I agree: the freefall scene and the whole airplane chase are contrived (as most action scenes in action films are). Yet, they are exciting to watch for me.

All the complaints about Bond surviving and recovering the fall, however, are quite pointless. Or you have to complain that Bond survives and recovers from everything that happens to him without much sweat.

The longest recovery he ever had was after the testicle-beating in CR. Apart from that, you could fault every Bond action scene for not being realistic in regard to its toll on the human body.

But I don´t see threads about Bond surviving the free running sequence in CR without even a sprained ankle...

[volante]

A good point well made sir

[The Shark]

But I don´t see threads about Bond surviving the free running sequence in CR without even a sprained ankle...

I did one over at MI6 a while back, so at least I'm consistent.

The same false pretence of realism is coincidently also present in the Bourne films. Anyone remember the ridiculous stair fall shooting scene at the end of the Bourne Idenity or Bourne surviving the car chase at the end of the Bourne Supremacy?

[SecretAgentFan]

But I don´t see threads about Bond surviving the free running sequence in CR without even a sprained ankle...

I did one over at MI6 a while back, so at least I'm consistent.

The same false pretence of realism is coincidently also present in the Bourne films. Anyone remember the ridiculous stair fall shooting scene at the end of the Bourne Idenity or Bourne surviving the car chase at the end of the Bourne Supremacy?

You´re absolutely right, The Shark.

It´s very funny how people go on preferring the realistic BOURNE because Bond is "just a fantasy"...

[bonds_walther]

It's Bond!

That's all I'm going to say because I don't need to say anything else to make my point...

PS - It's Bond!

[danslittlefinger]

It's still just a Bond movie. I'm sure even Craig would tell you that.

Closed my eyes there for a second and I imagined Craig himself. Eerie.

[krypt]

felt like classic Bond to me. which I thought was a good thing.

[Chief of SIS]

For me I loved both the CGI on the glass fall and the freefall sequence. I didn't feel like either scenario was completely implausible thought I really don't know how deep sink holes really are. What I thought was great about them was the ability to create a camera angle that was truly unique. I'm in a very small camp where I thought the cinematography of QoS was gorgeous though the editing made the film to brief in some places. That being said, going over the ledge in the church tower was by far the best way to do that shot and may have been the best shot of the film. Same with the free fall. We have technology to provide a truly thrilling cinematic experience in certain shots where we usually could not capture the intensity needed. I am scared of the abuse of CGI but those two shots were perfectly used.

Edited by Chief of SIS, 20 October 2010 - 03:00 PM.