10 replies to this topic

[mario007]

So vesper betrayed bond and mathis both in CR, ultimately mathis was innocent ... vesper was duped by Yusuf?

He had given the necklace to vesper just like he had given it to corrine (the Canadian agent). What was Yusuf getting in return? ... vesper was not a british spy she worked for the treasury branch!

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Also, do you guys think that Yusuf is beaten to a pulp by bond ... albeit alive? Thanks for the help!

Edited by mario007, 17 November 2008 - 09:43 PM.

[sorking]

So vesper betrayed bond and mathis both in CR, ultimately mathis was innocent ... vesper was duped by Yusuf?

Yes. He worked for Quantum, but pretended to be a regular guy and seduced her and became her boyfriend knowing she had access to government information.

The only betrayal of Mathis, I guess, was to tell the bad guys of his existence so LeChiffre could use his name.

He had given the necklace to vesper just like he had given it to corrine (the Canadian agent). What was Yusuf getting in return? ... vesper was not a british spy she worked for the treasury branch!

But exceedingly high-up if she's sent undercover with 007.

It's not like Yusef will be the only agent Quantum has in operation. Nor that Yusef was necessarily only working one woman at a time.

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Intelligence has nothing to do with attraction.

She saves Bond at the docks after Bond is tortured - saying she'll get the money in exchange for his life. But she still has to betray Bond to do it. She can't live with the guilt of that - especially on top of the way she fell in love with him while her boyfriend was being held to ransom - so chooses to die. He decision to die isn't related to practical decision-making; it's purely emotional.

Also, do you guys think that Yusuf is beaten to a pulp by bond ... albeit alive? Thanks for the help!

No. That's the point of QoS - "The dead don't care about vengeance."

[SolidWaffle]

Right. Bond didn't touch Yusef in my opinion. Doesn't really matter though. Bond seemed angry at first in that scene, but you realize he is still cool, the way he deals with Corinne.

[Bonita]

So vesper betrayed bond and mathis both in CR, ultimately mathis was innocent ... vesper was duped by Yusuf?

He had given the necklace to vesper just like he had given it to corrine (the Canadian agent). What was Yusuf getting in return? ... vesper was not a british spy she worked for the treasury branch!

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Also, do you guys think that Yusuf is beaten to a pulp by bond ... albeit alive? Thanks for the help!

Vesper works for the division of the Treasury that tracks the movement of illicit funds. Turning her is VERY valuable for Quantum.

Was Mathis totally innocent?

BOND: Mathis is a cover name?
MATHIS: Yes.
BOND: Not a very good one.
//
MATHIS: Forgive me, James. And forgive yourself.

I need to drink that scene down again to consider those implications.

No. I don't think Bond beat Yusuf at all. I think he got information out of him. I think he got Yusuf to talk, just like Greene.

Check out my review of QoS: http://debrief.comma...showtopic=51624

Keep dancing...

[MkB]

He had given the necklace to vesper just like he had given it to corrine (the Canadian agent). What was Yusuf getting in return? ... vesper was not a british spy she worked for the treasury branch!

Remember, they "have people everywhere" . So why not the treasury branch? And presumably, when an accountant had to be picked up to watch Bond's back against Le Chiffre, Quantum managed to have someone they already had in their power to be sent. No coincidence.

[Doctor Shatterhand]

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Two reasons why Vesper killed herself. One she would face life in prison or perhaps death because of treason. Second, Quantum would eventually catch up to her and kill her and Bond. Knowing how big of an organization they are would mean sleepless nights and no where to hide in this world. By dying she cut off any holds Quantum would have on her, and Bond. Bond would at least be safe unless he went after Quantum, which is what he did. Thus the opening car chase.

As for Vesper falling for Yusuf, I can see it. He is not unattractive and is probably very smart at seducing women and giving them things they want. After weeks and months, Yusuf would pull her into the intrigue and after some compromising moments, she would realize she was in too deep and would have no choice but to do what Quantum wanted. This has happened throughout history especially during WW2 and the Cold War.

[MkB]

Come to think of it, I've got a question too...

At some point, Vesper takes off the necklace, and doesn't seem to worry anymore about the fate of her algerian boyfriend.

Does it mean that
a - she really doesn't care anymore if her "abducted" lover gets killed bcause of her deeds, and now worries only about saving Bond's (perfectly formed)
b - she has somehow learned that she has been set up by Quantum, and that her lover was never abducted

??

Sorry for being thick

[mario007]

Thanks for the replies guys ... I appreciate the help very much! It all makes sense now! Sorking, I know what you mean by bond not beating Yusuf to a pulp ... it would negate the whole character arc! He did sound angry at the begining of the scene and for good reason!

Mk B, As Dr. Shatterhand suggested Vesper probably knew later that Yusuf was in on it and took the necklace off!

Now I can enjoy QOS for the third time with a good grasp of the story!

Edited by mario007, 18 November 2008 - 12:47 AM.

[sorking]

Come to think of it, I've got a question too...

At some point, Vesper takes off the necklace, and doesn't seem to worry anymore about the fate of her algerian boyfriend.

Does it mean that
a - she really doesn't care anymore if her "abducted" lover gets killed bcause of her deeds, and now worries only about saving Bond's (perfectly formed)
b - she has somehow learned that she has been set up by Quantum, and that her lover was never abducted

??

Sorry for being thick

It's not thick at all. It's left up to the viewer to decide.

That MI6 were able to trace her history enough to get the information on the kidnap suggests that they've managed to find whatever threads were left behind pretty accurately. Given that QoS begins with discussion of Yusef's 'body', found shortly after the events in Venice, I like to think that they told Vesper he was dead, knowing it wouldn't matter because her new deal was done to save Bond's life.

But if you prefer, they kept him alive to guarantee she'd bring them the cash - and she still wanted to save him despite having 'left' him for Bond.

Or, as above, maybe she'd been told he was conning her.

The choice, as they say, is yours!

Edited by sorking, 18 November 2008 - 12:49 AM.

[sorking]

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Two reasons why Vesper killed herself. One she would face life in prison or perhaps death because of treason. Second, Quantum would eventually catch up to her and kill her and Bond. Knowing how big of an organization they are would mean sleepless nights and no where to hide in this world. By dying she cut off any holds Quantum would have on her, and Bond. Bond would at least be safe unless he went after Quantum, which is what he did. Thus the opening car chase.

I'm not disagreeing especially, but I'm always surprised when these kinds of analysis come up - because they make Vesper's death seem like a practical decision rather than an emotional one.

Part of this is, perhaps, that the Bonds have almost always avoided those sources of motivation - but in the Craig era so much of what goes on is about the gut over the head. For me, Vesper's death was all about guilt and betrayal. Not fear - not at all. Let them kill her. She went to her death willingly. And she'd have no compunction about helping the British with information if they rescued her...even if it did lead to her imprisonment. (I massively doubt they'd order her execution once they checked on her story.)

But to live - to live and have the man she loves look at her that way - that would be unbearable. That's what she can't stand. She's destroyed by guilt, by the emotional blow dealt to Bond. She knows what her betrayal will do to a man who lives too easily inside his armour.

She made him cold. She robbed him of any sense of trust. She ruined a good man. And she loved him so much that to do that essentially killed her.

[Captain Tightpants]

why does vesper kill herself and give the money to Quantum in CR? If to save bond? how does that garantee his safety ... falling for Yusuf, seems out of character for vesper ... she came across quite intelligent!

Two reasons why Vesper killed herself. One she would face life in prison or perhaps death because of treason. Second, Quantum would eventually catch up to her and kill her and Bond. Knowing how big of an organization they are would mean sleepless nights and no where to hide in this world. By dying she cut off any holds Quantum would have on her, and Bond. Bond would at least be safe unless he went after Quantum, which is what he did. Thus the opening car chase.

As for Vesper falling for Yusuf, I can see it. He is not unattractive and is probably very smart at seducing women and giving them things they want. After weeks and months, Yusuf would pull her into the intrigue and after some compromising moments, she would realize she was in too deep and would have no choice but to do what Quantum wanted. This has happened throughout history especially during WW2 and the Cold War.

I think there as something else to it, really. I think she worked out she'd been had, roughly around the time that she abandoned the love knot. She knew that Quantum were using her, and possibly suspected they were trying to get to Bond through her. As long as she was alive, Bond would follow her, and there would always be the posibility that Quantum would find some other way to get to her. I think Vesper didn't want to risk the Last Good Man On Earth falling under Quantum's thrall. She killed herself because doing so would not only give Bond the motive to hunt Quntum down, but it would also completely cut him off from them. Quantum would not be able to touch Bond at all because their actions led to her death.

If Vesper had survived, I think Quantum would have been her bigger concern. It would be likely that she would be acquitted from the charge of treason because she was forced into it, and she also knew enough about the organisation to know how to contact Mr. White. Her testimony against them would guarantee her freedom and likely give her a new life somewhere else, though surviving up until then would be a problem given the scope of Quantum.