18 replies to this topic

[MkB]

Mind you, I've loved QoS.
But it seems some people are really disappointed by the film, especially after CR. I won't start listing the respective qualities of each flick, but I wanted to discuss with you one point that immediately struck me, and which I think may be a reason for the disappointment of some.

QoS is (to me) a brilliant, beautiful film, but when compared with CR, it doesn't have as many "iconic", striking scenes/images as the previous film. By iconic/striking, I mean scenes or images that linger in your memory, or that people will refer to spontaneously when talking about the movie even when they're not Bond fans who have seen it many times.

To me, the only striking scene in QoS is Bond and camille caught by the fire.

In CR, I could list:
- Bond in his trunks, emerging from the sea
- the torture scene
- Vesper's death underwater
- the Aston Martin about to run over Vesper then flipping over
- Craig running up the crane

So what do you think? Do you share this feeling about the "quantum" of iconic scenes, and if so, how did it influence your vision of the movie?

[MkB]

Bumping this up, now that our American colleagues are going to be able to see QoS... No opinions?

[Sir James Moloney]

I agree with you on every level It´s too bad, QOS is brilliant but it doesn´t have many iconic moments. Bond getting into the DB5 for the first time with Solange is one of them in CR, along with all the others you´ve said. The long shot of Bond in his hotel in Bolivia while "looking for the stationary" is quite good in his iconic properties.

CR is iconic, QOS is stylish, I wonder what will be Bond23?

[jaguar007]

You could be right. Many of the negative reviews (like Ebert) just talk about how different QoS is compared to other Bond movies. It could also just be that QoS is not as good of a movie as CR. I will be able to give you my opinion of it tomorrow.

[dee-bee-five]

CR vs. QoS? No contest. Honours are shared.

[Cody]

scenes or images that linger in your memory, or that people will refer to spontaneously when talking about the movie

I think

- Bond and Mitchell's fall through the roof and tussle on the ropes
- Bond calmly waiting for Slate to bleed out

have a good chance at that.

- "I need you back." "I never left." Gunbarrel.

As well.

[BoogieBond]

In CR the most memorable scene for me was Bond, James Bond at the end.
In Qos, The Opera scene stayed with me. But I feel the same in that it does not have the same amount of memorable scenes as CR.

Edited by BoogieBond, 14 November 2008 - 12:06 AM.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

In CR the most memorable scene for me was Bond, James Bond at the end.
In Qos, The Opera scene stayed with me. But I feel the same in that it does not have the same amount of memorable scenes as CR.

I agree. If all of QOS had been at the same level of the opera scene, QOS would have been an outstanding film. Throughout the film, I'd the same feeling as in Forster's interviews: the guy wanted get done with the whole thing as quick as possible and move on (that is, the experience of making an "action" film as well as the experience of watching the film itself). Only in Bregenz I felt he took his time to tell the story. QOS will be forgotten by the time 23 is released regardless of how succesful it is, simply because it owes its success to CR.

[MkB]

So it seems that, thus far, we more or less agree that CR has more iconic moments?
But does it make QoS a less interesting film to you, or not?

[byline]

I think "Quantum of Solace" will grow on me over time, so it may end up being the more interesting of the two films, but perhaps not the more emotionally riveting one. Right now, after first viewing, I find myself admiring the film, but not loving it. So I'm going to give it a few more chances. And, if other replies are any indication, I'll probably end up enjoying it a whole lot more on second and third viewing.

For me, the issue isn't so much about iconography, but framing. The debate over rapid-fire editing and scene changes has been done to death already, so I won't rehash that. But the framing of the shots, using such tight camera angles, didn't enable me to feel the danger, to have that visceral experience through the characters that I did in, say, the free-running/crane sequence, or the stairwell fight scene, both of which "Casino Royale" did extraordinarily well. But again, I may feel differently on second and third viewing.

Edited by byline, 16 November 2008 - 07:20 PM.

[krypt]

QoS images that come to mind:

Bond drifting the one-door DBS around a tight curve in the quarry while being riddled with gunfire from the pursuing car.

Bond with a drink in his hand at the Sienna safehouse.

Bond at the bottom of the rope firing straight up at Mitchell [the camera].

Bond appearing in tux at the opera.

Bond with his 6th Vesper martini at the 1st class bar.

Bond and Fields at the hotel.

Bond and Fields entering the party.

Bond opening the car trunk and finding Mathis inside.

The oil-drowned girl.

Craig and Olga walking across the sand.

Bond dropping Greene in the middle of nowhere.

Bond in the apartment at film's end ... and the young woman quietly telling him, "Thank you," as she slips out the door.

Bond telling M, "I never left" ... and walking away in the snow.

[Aces High]

I agree with OP,I would also suggest that the script quality too is a problem.Mainky due to the script.Le Chiffre had some truely wonderful dialogue banter,& obviously Bond & Vesper on the train..I'm afraid QOS had nothing even close.

[MHazard]

At the risk of stating the obvious: CR is a film of an Ian Fleming novel. QOS is not. The difference between the two films can best be summarized by the difference in the PTS. QOS has a car chase and not a particularly interesting one. CR has a wonderful PTS with a dark Bond getting his second kill ending with "yes considerably". I enjoyed QOS but it wastes a lot of Daniel Craig's talent. I would have preferred that they re-adapted one of the early books like LALD or MR which was never filmed properly.

[Tarl_Cabot]

QOS moments I dug:

Bond taking the motorbike away from the assassin(?).

The fall into the art gallery

The final shot in the art gallery

The brutal fight with Slate

The opera house...now that reminded my of ASWLM's giza stuff.

The opening shot of the lake/mountain-beautiful!

the villa visit with Mathis

"time to get out"

The resolution scene in russia and "I never left"

The escape from the elevator

"I don't give a about the CIA...he's my agent"

[Publius]

At the risk of stating the obvious: CR is a film of an Ian Fleming novel. QOS is not.

Oddly enough, I think QoS feels more like the literary CR than does CR the film.

Anyway, as for iconic moments, I'm surprised nobody's yet mentioned Bond encountering Greene and his men at the opera, the two sides staring each other down as the opera unfolds on-stage. The moment still gives me chills.

[tdalton]

At the risk of stating the obvious: CR is a film of an Ian Fleming novel. QOS is not.

Oddly enough, I think QoS feels more like the literary CR than does CR the film.

Anyway, as for iconic moments, I'm surprised nobody's yet mentioned Bond encountering Greene and his men at the opera, the two sides staring each other down as the opera unfolds on-stage. The moment still gives me chills.

That was a great scene, and I mentioned in my review of the film that I thought that that scene and the shootout that followed was perhaps my favorite scene in the entire franchise. It was just fantastic and hopefully there will be more moments like that in the future.

[mccartney007]

Interesting thought and one I don't necessarily disagree with.

I think CASINO ROYALE's scenes have peaks and valleys whereas QUANTUM OF SOLACE is kind of a scenic plateau -- which is not meant to be derogatory towards either film.

I honestly can't give an objective opinion on the differences between CASINO ROYALE and QUANTUM OF SOLACE because the sheernewness of QUANTUM is going to cloud my opinion slightly. Ask me in 365 days.

I think CASINO ROYALE is a cracking good film but it had moments (albeit very, very, very few) where it dragged and beat you over the head. QUANTUM doesn't really do that -- it keeps moving and, visually, was a magnet of sorts for my eyes.

I like QUANTUM because of the fact that the overall plot is very simple and easy to understand and, I thought, very clearly laid out. The reason I think it's a well-written film is because there are several little barnacles on the hull of the main plot that add an extra element of realism, and -- I don't know -- sadism(?) to what is going on. By Quantum affecting one country's government they are affecting not only the citizens of that country and their future, but also several other nations who have vested interests in what goes on there. It's even more interesting if the vested interests in that country aren't exactly above the line.

I guess what I am saying is that there is a lot of gray areas in QUANTUM and I, personally, love it. Governments, politics, LIFE is all about gray areas and sometimes for one group to benefit another has to suffer. It's the way of the world and I appreciate that QUANTUM took a risk in that way. Almost all of the other Bond films are clear-cut, black-and-white plots (THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH comes to mind as to having the most potential to venture into the gray areas), but I think the true evil and the sinister in this world is hiding in the gray. QUANTUM was a risk-taker that thinks its audience is smart enough to know what's going on without having to give them a whole scene dedicated to explaining, in very clear, specific terms what is happening on screen. I like that and I don't attribute it to lazy screen writing. I attribute it to skillful screenwriting.

I'm not claiming to be smarter or saying anyone is dumber for not agreeing or for not liking the things I like (although I may secretly be thinking it), and that's fine. I know there are a lot of people out there who have very specific parameters for what they believe James Bond to be. Am I one of those people? No. I think James Bond needs to evolve and I don't think it hurts and makes the film any less James Bond-y to extract some of the series' staples. The usual formula is fine, too, but not when it starts to become a parody of itself. And we have to be honest with ourselves: it was guilty of doing that for several years.

As of 16 November 2008 at a total of six viewings, I think QUANTUM OF SOLACE is a wonderful addition to the James Bond film series and very much a modern 1960's Bond film but more heart and soul. And Daniel Craig is James Bond.

And I'm done standing on my semi-OT apple box.

[eddychaput]

6 viewings? Wow, I've only seen it once so far (it just came out last Friday). My feelings are mixed at best.

I know this has been mentioned by plenty of you already, so I won't waste too much time on it, but I'm of the belief that the visual style of the film mimicked the Bourne films too closely. Truth be told, I didn't find the cutting all that good even during the calmer dialogue scenes either, let alone the action cues.

Dominic Greene had a fantastic actor portraying him in Mathieu Amalric, but I never felt the importance of his role in the movie. Maybe 'importance' isn't the right word, but I didn't get the impression there was a lot of meat to Greene. When he and 007 clash in the hotel at the end, I had the impression they had only just met.

Greene's overall plot also just seems to be more of an afterthought more than anything else. Sure, there's mention of a military/Quantum coup, but the script, in tone and thematically, focusses far more on Bond's personal mission. Don't get me wrong. I liked Bond's personal story, but I was disapointed that the coup storyline earned little amount of thought. And what was that twist about natural resources. Oooh, they want water, not oil! I didn't see how that changed anything to the mission.

I am seeing the movie again tomorrow, so maybe some of these will clear up for me.

[mccartney007]

6 viewings? Wow, I've only seen it once so far (it just came out last Friday). My feelings are mixed at best.

Well, in fairness I have the luxury of having a copy to watch at home. I've seen it twice in the cinema and will see it a few more times no doubt. I think I saw CASINO ROYALE 15 or so times in the cinema so....

Oooh, they want water, not oil! I didn't see how that changed anything to the mission.

It really didn't change Bond's mission at all, but it was a plot point that affected the CIA and Medrano/Bolivia.