18 replies to this topic

[tim partridge]

As a fact I definitely believe that had Whitney sung LTK instead of Gladys Knight, it would have been a number one in the USA. Read on and you'll see why.

Firstly- Whitney was obviously huge, and anything she released went to number one-

SECONDLY

Narada Michael Walden wrote and produced LTK (with Walter Afanasieff), and he was on a Billboard number 1 roll back then, especially with Whitney. His production work was famous for having a slick, programmed rhythm section, tamborine and lots of finger clicks and melodramatic drums/timpani, twinkling DX7 keyboard vibes and synthesised bassline (often played by current POP IDOL judge Randy Jackson). ALL of these elements are dominant in LTK, and also in these Walden songs listed below that were big in 1988 and 1990 (with and without Afanasieff, and all bare more than a passing resemblence to the Bond song in question!):

WHERE DO BROKEN HEARTS GO (number one in 1988)
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=8yvsU4SNWPA

ONE MOMENT IN TIME (number one in 1988)
http://uk.youtube.co...feature=related

ALL THE MAN THAT I NEED (number one in 1989)
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=AXIWOg6rYHY

HOW LTK do those songs sound???!!! Whitneys voice coupled with Narada's already typical Whitneyish production, LTK would be a surefire number one. LTK with Whitney could definitely sit between ONE MOMENT IN TIME and ALL THE MAN as a 1989 number one.

Additionally-

Just HOW LTK do these Mariah Carey songs sound (the first one was also a Billboard number one)???:

I DON'T WANNA CRY (written and produced again by Walden and apparently Affanasieff) 1990
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=_sKphEqypjg

LOVE TAKES TIME (produced by just Afanasieff) 1991
http://uk.youtube.co...feature=related


On a sidenote, anyone else notice how Afanasieff's production on the TITANIC song MY HEART WILL GO ON is incredibly LTK with that huge timpani roll etc (at 03.20)?:

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=uO_vFuzPJvc

Most of his work with Mariah's stuff he did with her sounds like this too (HERO etc).




Anyway, I love Gladys Knight and consider LTK to be a textbook Bond song (even without incorporating the theme from the score), and it was a huge UK hit regardless. I just think that they needed more than just Whitney's producer to make this a big hit in the USA, and the chart exposure and marketing would have definitely been significantly higher with Whitney, star of the moment, on board, as opposed to just a classy, timeless Motown diva.

The whole point of hiring Walden was to ape some Whitney success of which there was lots of in the late 80s (which he did perfectly in the production), so why not go the whole hog and bring in the diva?

Edited by tim partridge, 04 October 2008 - 03:38 PM.

[Hitmonk]

Forget Gladis or Whitney, would have been much better had they used the Eric Clapton version - real shame they couldn't sort out the deal with his record company.

[sharpshooter]

"Houston...we have a problem."

[Jackanaples]

Hey, is the Eric Clapton version of the song available anywhere?

[The Cat]

Hey, is the Eric Clapton version of the song available anywhere?

No.

[Loomis]

As a fact I definitely believe that had Whitney sung LTK instead of Gladys Knight, it would have been a number one in the USA. Read on and you'll see why.

Firstly- Whitney was obviously huge, and anything she released went to number one-

SECONDLY

Narada Michael Walden wrote and produced LTK (with Walter Afanasieff), and he was on a Billboard number 1 roll back then, especially with Whitney. His production work was famous for having a slick, programmed rhythm section, tamborine and lots of finger clicks and melodramatic drums/timpani, twinkling DX7 keyboard vibes and synthesised bassline (often played by current POP IDOL judge Randy Jackson). ALL of these elements are dominant in LTK, and also in these Walden songs listed below that were big in 1988 and 1990 (with and without Afanasieff, and all bare more than a passing resemblence to the Bond song in question!):

WHERE DO BROKEN HEARTS GO (number one in 1988)
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=8yvsU4SNWPA

ONE MOMENT IN TIME (number one in 1988)
http://uk.youtube.co...feature=related

ALL THE MAN THAT I NEED (number one in 1989)
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=AXIWOg6rYHY

HOW LTK do those songs sound???!!! Whitneys voice coupled with Narada's already typical Whitneyish production, LTK would be a surefire number one. LTK with Whitney could definitely sit between ONE MOMENT IN TIME and ALL THE MAN as a 1989 number one.

Additionally-

Just HOW LTK do these Mariah Carey songs sound (the first one was also a Billboard number one)???:

I DON'T WANNA CRY (written and produced again by Walden and apparently Affanasieff) 1990
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=_sKphEqypjg

LOVE TAKES TIME (produced by just Afanasieff) 1991
http://uk.youtube.co...feature=related


On a sidenote, anyone else notice how Afanasieff's production on the TITANIC song MY HEART WILL GO ON is incredibly LTK with that huge timpani roll etc (at 03.20)?:

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=uO_vFuzPJvc

Most of his work with Mariah's stuff he did with her sounds like this too (HERO etc).




Anyway, I love Gladys Knight and consider LTK to be a textbook Bond song (even without incorporating the theme from the score), and it was a huge UK hit regardless. I just think that they needed more than just Whitney's producer to make this a big hit in the USA, and the chart exposure and marketing would have definitely been significantly higher with Whitney, star of the moment, on board, as opposed to just a classy, timeless Motown diva.

The whole point of hiring Walden was to ape some Whitney success of which there was lots of in the late 80s (which he did perfectly in the production), so why not go the whole hog and bring in the diva?

A somewhat Patrick Batemanesque post ( ), but you're doubtless correct that Whitney would have been a terrific choice.

[Royal Dalton]

The whole point of hiring Walden was to ape some Whitney success of which there was lots of in the late 80s (which he did perfectly in the production), so why not go the whole hog and bring in the diva?

That's an interesting thought, actually. Why didn't they ask her? It could only have helped the film.

I remember when GoldenEye was in production a journalist from Premiere suggested Houston for the title song, and Babs apparently loved the idea.

[Dekard77]

GoldenEye is a nice song. I missed the instrumental version in the movie as it would have made a big difference ...
LTK is also an incredible song but Kamen's score completely destroys the theme as its never used in the movie. In fact I remember some hard core fans I spoke with, was wondering why Dalton's Bond can't even have the theme song used in the movie.
Kamen had done some nice work but he is completely not the person for LTK.
I also think with the huge success of BatMan and Ghostbusters 2 soundtracks there was no way Bond could have competed.

[HildebrandRarity]

"We shall go there...to Planet Houston"

"To rule...to finally rule"

Um, what makes you think Planet Houston would have sung Licence To Kill?

What makes you think a song called "Licence To Kill" sung by a female, any female, would make it to number one in a country which - at the time - cared only for mediocre, forgettable elevator music?

I'm glad LTK is left unsoiled by the train wreck that is Planet Houston. Her songs make me want to barf and gag. Ditto Maraiah...ditto Celine Dion. None of them have any writing talent and merely catered to the very lowest common denominator, i.e. those who needed some background music while aimlessy making their way from one isle to the next as they filled up their grocery carts.

I'll take Madonna and Sheryl Crow any day. I respect them for being able to write.

[Turn]

"We shall go there...to Planet Houston"

"To rule...to finally rule"

Um, what makes you think Planet Houston would have sung Licence To Kill?

What makes you think a song called "Licence To Kill" sung by a female, any female, would make it to number one in a country which - at the time - cared only for mediocre, forgettable elevator music?

I'm glad LTK is left unsoiled by the train wreck that is Planet Houston. Her songs make me want to barf and gag. Ditto Maraiah...ditto Celine Dion. None of them have any writing talent.

I'll take Madonna and Sheryl Crow any day.

Agreed. One of the most frightening moments for me in Bond rumor history is when Houston was mentioned as a possible choice to play Jinx in DAD. The Bodyguard is awful. It amazes me that film was as successful as it was and that that is the number one soundtrack of all time. What were people thinking back in the early '90s?

[tim partridge]

"We shall go there...to Planet Houston"

"To rule...to finally rule"

Um, what makes you think Planet Houston would have sung Licence To Kill?

What makes you think a song called "Licence To Kill" sung by a female, any female, would make it to number one in a country which - at the time - cared only for mediocre, forgettable elevator music?

You've missed the point.

Check out the songs that I posted that were HUUUUUUUUUGE billboard number ones circa 1988-1991, produced by Walden for Whitney (even the Mariah track) with the same production tricks as LTK. LTK is CLEARLY cashing in on that mold, from the vocal arrangement right down to the actual song production choices and musical arrangement (they all have those finger click loops, synth bass, timpani, etc). THAT ASIDE even, look at the fact that every single released by Whitney and produced by Walden went on to be a massive billboard number one hit. Infact, look at her singles from that time without Walden as well- all mega hits with a built in audience, something Gladys Knight, as amazing as she is (and IMO she's as good as Houston both vocally and professionally speaking) FACTUALLY did not have.

MY POINT is that hiring Walden for LTK was obviously MCA or the studio's idea of cashing in on his name, best and most obviously associated at the time with Whitney Houston. They wanted an older diva like Gladys Knight to to do the Bassey thing, but they wanted (and got) a Whitney Houston backing track and vocal arrangement to bring Gladys into 1989. It proved very successful in the UK, but ironically in the USA the song apparently didn't chart (which was no doubt due in some part to the not very good marketing of the film in general), even though at that time the sound of LTK was EVIDENTLY (again, check those links out that I posted) billboard number one hit gold when Whitney's name was splashed across it, and later Mariah's.

So, based on SIGNIFICANT FACT, I do believe that LTK would have been a billboard number one with Whitney performing the song. It makes me wonder whose decision it was to go with Knight, given that she was only really known to mums and dads of the time for her "and the Pips" work. Even if they wanted the old diva thing, from a purely commercial point of view, why not say Aretha Franklin? Walden and her had massive chart hits in the mid 80s (I KNEW YOU WERE WAITING, WHO'S ZOMMIN WHO, FREEWAY OF LOVE).

[HildebrandRarity]

No no. I actually got your point. I re-familiarized myself with the product via the links you were kind enough* to provide. I rememember those songs after having instantaneously forgotten them as being unintelligent, cliched, grocery-isle fodder.

Putting aside my bias not favouring an entire sub-genre of mindless Black American Music Designed To Extract Value Also From Virtually Tuned-Out Whites from the late 80s, I think you missed my points:

1) What makes you think Planet Houston would have "signed" to sing a song titled "Licence To Kill" when she clearly was produced to just provide the vocals for songs with one instantaneously forgettable title after another?

and

2) What makes you think Americans via American Billboard would put a song titled "Licence To Kill" number one at that time?

I'm wondering if you are getting my points?

As for poor marketing of the movie, what does that have to do with it's chart position when most of the songs in your link were not linked to any movie but went to number one anyway? Isn't a song supposed to be successful based on it's own merits and it's own marketing? At least 99 percent of the successful songs out there never needed a movie to be successfully marketed for that song to be number one. Or am I talking hot air?

PS

I actually like the song as part of the main titles where it's short, to the point and augmented by the nude silhouettes and things like the roulette machines. Otherwise it's 2 minutes too long on it's own.

* To be fair, I admire the work you put into the thread. You provided links, producer names and cited specific musical styles and elements. So, I give you an A for your research and your commitment to your thesis.

[marktmurphy]

There would have certainly been more notes in it, yes.

[HildebrandRarity]

As an adendum to my previous rant, It's easy to speculativey re-write history with "what ifs". Hence my "We shall go there...to Planet Houston / To rule...to finally rule" opening.

Kudos, nevertheless, to you, tim partridge, for the effort you put in in terms of research, time and thought.

[The Cat]

So, based on SIGNIFICANT FACT, I do believe that LTK would have been a billboard number one with Whitney performing the song. It makes me wonder whose decision it was to go with Knight, given that she was only really known to mums and dads of the time for her "and the Pips" work. Even if they wanted the old diva thing, from a purely commercial point of view, why not say Aretha Franklin? Walden and her had massive chart hits in the mid 80s (I KNEW YOU WERE WAITING, WHO'S ZOMMIN WHO, FREEWAY OF LOVE).

The answer is simple. They had Gladys' first solo (Non-Pips) record coming out at this time and MCA wanted to boost her up. That, and the old diva thing.

[HildebrandRarity]

WHO'S ZOMMIN WHO, FREEWAY OF LOVE

Songs of tremendous intelligence and distinction!

[tim partridge]

No no. I actually got your point. I re-familiarized myself with the product via the links you were kind enough* to provide. I rememember those songs after having instantaneously forgotten them as being unintelligent, cliched, grocery-isle fodder.

Putting aside my bias not favouring an entire sub-genre of mindless Black American Music Designed To Extract Value Also From Virtually Tuned-Out Whites from the late 80s, I think you missed my points:

1) What makes you think Planet Houston would have "signed" to sing a song titled "Licence To Kill" when she clearly was produced to just provide the vocals for songs with one instantaneously forgettable title after another?

No idea, other than the fact MCA clearly paid a ton of money to get Narada and had him reproduce his sound for Whitney albeit with Gladys!

and

2) What makes you think Americans via American Billboard would put a song titled "Licence To Kill" number one at that time?

I'm wondering if you are getting my points?

CYNICALLY speaking, as much I know Narada (and Walter Affanasieff) is a dynamite pop genius who was on a hit roll back then, I think we can both agree that the name of the song/film would have nothing to do with it. Whitney was HUGE, she had a built in MASS audience, and Record Exec Clive Davis right behind her. Dare I say it, but if Whitney had released a song between 1985-1992 called "THIS SONG IS CHEESE", it was clearly going to be a number one hit regardless of everything against it.

You think any of those tracks I already posted would suffer on the charts with the LTK name? LICENCE TO KILL is a sillier name than Aretha's mega hit WHO'S ZOOMIN WHO as well?


I also dare say that in 1989, Gladys Knight, who was probably always better appreciated in Europe anyway (hence the marketting of the LTK song in the UK vs the USA), and hadn't really been in the public eye since the 1970s (and not solo but with THE PIPS), was never going to do much chart damage unless she was marketed to hell with a giant comeback. As mentioned earlier, the hype comeback worked for Aretha, but that was a whole image thing too (again, on the Artisa label with Whitney, not MCA). Dropping Gladys into a manly tux for the vid wasn't exactly a WHO'S ZOOMIN WHO style makeover. Remember also that they were selling Gladys for the first time WITHOUT the PIPS but as a solo artist, and she wasn't exactly established as an album selling solo artist like her contemporaries Aretha and even Tina Turner.

BTW, Gladys Knight was given an earleir attempted late 80s make over comeback by MCA for the MIAMI VICE season 2 soundtrack- she did a song (with THE PIPS) called SEND IT TO ME which was overseen by one of Madonna's buddies of the time (Steve Bray), but funnily enough, nothing happened with it.

As for poor marketing of the movie, what does that have to do with it's chart position when most of the songs in your link were not linked to any movie but went to number one anyway? Isn't a song supposed to be successful based on it's own merits and it's own marketing? At least 99 percent of the successful songs out there never needed a movie to be successfully marketed for that song to be number one. Or am I talking hot air?

Are we just blatantly tip-toeing around the soundtrack to THE BODYGUARD here (highest selling soundtrack album of all time, btw ).

The song LTK wasn't exactly the subject of brilliant marketing in the USA, especially compared to a Whitney or even Aretha (or even Tina Turner) pop song at that time, just as the movie's marketing was seemingly played down too. Playing the video a few times on MTV isn't exactly the kind of blitz that Davis gave Whitney so frequently in the mid 80s to the early 90s. Music aside, Whitney was a mega, MTV-saturating celebrity, regardless of how well she could sing, and Gladys circa 1989 wasn't anywhere near.


I think I've outBatemanned Bateman!!

I am a huge fan of Narada Michael Walden and Walter Affanasieff's glossy production work, and LTK for me was the last great Bond song. For the last time in the franchise, they directly took a cutting edge, chart smashing pop production sound from established hitmakers and gave it to Bond to take advantage of, just as all the good Bond songs had been made since FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE. Very important, IMO. You can imagine how gutted I was when Ronson jumped ship on QOS, especially now since it has been revealed that they were going to use Arnold's theme in the song (which even LTK didn't have the luxury of). Actually, I wonder why they couldn't have had Ronson produce a Bond track with Keyes singing, as opposed to hiring Jack White to seemingly imitate the horn flavoured, currently ubiquitous Ronson sound?

[HildebrandRarity]

I think I've outBatemanned Bateman!!

I am a huge fan of Narada Michael Walden and Walter Affanasieff's glossy production work, and LTK for me was the last great Bond song. For the last time in the franchise, they directly took a cutting edge, chart smashing pop production sound from established hitmakers and gave it to Bond to take advantage of, just as all the good Bond songs had been made since FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE. Very important, IMO. You can imagine how gutted I was when Ronson jumped ship on QOS, especially now since it has been revealed that they were going to use Arnold's theme in the song (which even LTK didn't have the luxury of). Actually, I wonder why they couldn't have had Ronson produce a Bond track with Keyes singing, as opposed to hiring Jack White to seemingly imitate the horn flavoured, currently ubiquitous Ronson sound?

I don't know if it indeed *was* the final time Eon took the chart-toppingesque sounds from the then-chart toppers like Whitney Carey/Planet Houston/Mariah Franklin/Aretha Turner and gave it to Bond. Didn't they try it out with Madonna, who actually gave Eon a top 7 "hit"?

I'd suggest Madonna was always bigger. Before, right then (Rescue Me, Vogue), and for years after. Plus Madonna can write whereas Planet Houston couldnt if her life depended on it.

The whole point these days seems to be to AVOID those types of sound in the hope of being DIFFERENT (?). Interesting, isn't it.

I still don't know if a song titled "Licence To Kill" would have been number one if Planet Houston had done it.

We'll never know.

But top marks to you for suggesting it.

PS

Didn't Ronson bail because Whinehouse was too strung out to connect the dots when it came to crunch time?

[Publius]

It might have been bigger, but I don't think it would have been better. I'm happy with what we got.