19 replies to this topic

[Dell Deaton]

There's a book on this, I believe; so any familiarity w/ that would be helpful.

More generally, I'm looking to reality check some of my own thinking w/ regard to the selection of the DB5 for the Goldfinger film. Recall that Ian Fleming specified a DB III in the novel, and that he was very much alive and kicking through a good part of the movie production.

So why not have been true to Fleming and have Q put Sean Connery in the exact model which he had originally designated?

Who can speak more expansively to this history, and, in particular, the decision to stick w/ Aston Martin and the version that was finally chosen?

Thanks!

[Bryce (003)]

Dell - While I'm not the best expert but have researched not only the DB5 but many Astons over the years, I'll dig up some specs and history starting with "The Most Famous Car in the World" and take it from there.

Give me a day or so. I'm just getting over a nasty head cold.

Quickly, the DB5 was the newest model at the time, but a DB3 was considered. I'm sure many of the other members and car experts around CBn may well beat me to the punch though. Cheers.

[marktmurphy]

Yeah, that's all you need to know, really. Fleming wrote it when the DB Mark III (as the car was actually called; it was basically a development of the DB2) was out, by the time of the film they were up to the DB5 and had stopped making the Mk III five years before. Obviously the DB5 was easier to get hold of than the old DB MkIII, plus you'd want Bond to appear up to date, wouldn't you? (Although oddly Tim's Aston was a couple of years old at the time of Living Daylights! )

Here's a page about the DB Mk III:
http://www.astonmart...db_mark_iii.htm

[Dell Deaton]

Dell - While I'm not the best expert but have researched not only the DB5 but many Astons over the years, I'll dig up some specs and history starting with "The Most Famous Car in the World" and take it from there.

Give me a day or so. I'm just getting over a nasty head cold.

Quickly, the DB5 was the newest model at the time, but a DB3 was considered. I'm sure many of the other members and car experts around CBn may well beat me to the punch though. Cheers.

Thanks, guys.

Bryce, I've highlighted in your Reply the line that was most on my mind: I'm looking to source the notion that a DB III was considered.

At the risk of biasing this discussion (and I'd rather just watch where it goes), the James Bond of Fleming's novels had no reservation about driving older cars; in fact, there's evidence that he prefers them. The DB Mark III (thank you, marktmurphy, for the proper name) was new, current when Ian Fleming wrote Goldfinger. But did that necessarily mean that Q Branch only had new cars in its pool?

For that matter, why an Aston Martin at all (for the novel)? Why not bring out the Thunderbird then?

I go back and forth in my thinking about "input" Ian Fleming had on the films. There are some strong statements in some places saying he had absolutely none. Yet he made staff recommendations for production work in Jamaica, spent time on the set of From Russia with Love. He was alive until not long before Goldfinger was released as a movie. Guy Hamilton was a strong Fleming admirer, especially in the details. And, of course, Ian Fleming had a passion for cars.

Even if one had no intention of taking his advice, wouldn't it simply make polite conversation to ask the Bond creator, "so, what do you think of the car?"

No rush, guys. And, Bryce, I hope you feel better soon.

[Jim]

The reason Bond chooses the DBII in the novel is to suit his cover as an international businessman who is trying to work his way into Goldfinger's good books, a sharp commercial type. Therefore, the car is something that meets that cover - something new and fast. Ultimately, all the film does is update this with the newer model - nothing inconsistent to the idea being pursued. If he had turned up in a rattly old DBII, it wouldn't create the right impression at all.

[Dell Deaton]

... If he had turned up in a rattly old DBII, it wouldn't create the right impression at all.

Does "not the current model year" necessarily equate to "rattly old"?

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

[marktmurphy]

Does "not the current model year" necessarily equate to "rattly old"?

Bond's first Bentley was a twenty year-old model (note that the new version of Casino Royale even featured Bond driving a car several decades old; but not actually one from 1930), but his Aston Martin was a new one.

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

He is driven in a Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost in the novel; not sure of the year, but it was made from 1907-1926, which would have made it at least 33 years old; in the film Goldfinger has a 1937 Rolls Royce Silver Phantom 3, so 27 years old.

[Jim]

... If he had turned up in a rattly old DBII, it wouldn't create the right impression at all.

Does "not the current model year" necessarily equate to "rattly old"?

Depends on the impression on wishes to create, I suppose. If it wasn't the current model year, would Bond be presenting himself properly, given the guise? If I wanted to show the richest man in the world that I was a successful and bright young executive, turning up in last year's model might be a bad start. I accept that in the minds of proper people, such concerns should be trivial but then Goldfinger is easily impressed by cheap bling.

He is, after all, playing James Bond, international small arms dealer (I think) and, therefore, a bit of a materialistic prat.

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

Possibly vintage (which I think means pre 1933 or 1930, I forget; I may be wrong both about that and the age of the specific car)

[Dell Deaton]

Does "not the current model year" necessarily equate to "rattly old"?

Bond's first Bentley was a twenty year-old model (note that the new version of Casino Royale even featured Bond driving a car several decades old; but not actually one from 1930), but his Aston Martin was a new one.

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

He is driven in a Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost in the novel; not sure of the year, but it was made from 1907-1926, which would have made it at least 33 years old; in the film Goldfinger has a 1937 Rolls Royce Silver Phantom 3, so 27 years old.

So, to the point Jim raises (which I very much appreciate): Would having had Sean Connery drive a DB III in the film have been inconsistent w/ the image he was seeking to portray for Mr. Goldfinger?

Or would it, in your opinion, simply have been a different, but perhaps equally legitimate position (eg, an affluent man who'd chosen to drive an expensive classic automobile, as opposed to social position expressed through driving the latest and greatest)?

Granted, the "cover" through which 007 approaches Goldfinger in the novel as opposed to the film are not exactly the same!

[marktmurphy]

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

Possibly vintage (which I think means pre 1933 or 1930, I forget; I may be wrong both about that and the age of the specific car)

Could even be Edwardian, which pre-dates vintage, if it's a very early Ghost.

Does "not the current model year" necessarily equate to "rattly old"?

Bond's first Bentley was a twenty year-old model (note that the new version of Casino Royale even featured Bond driving a car several decades old; but not actually one from 1930), but his Aston Martin was a new one.

Note to self: Review novel and film for references to Goldfinger's car. Vintage? Classic?

He is driven in a Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost in the novel; not sure of the year, but it was made from 1907-1926, which would have made it at least 33 years old; in the film Goldfinger has a 1937 Rolls Royce Silver Phantom 3, so 27 years old.

So, to the point Jim raises (which I very much appreciate): Would having had Sean Connery drive a DB III in the film have been inconsistent w/ the image he was seeking to portray for Mr. Goldfinger?

Or would it, in your opinion, simply have been a different, but perhaps equally legitimate position (eg, an affluent man who'd chosen to drive an expensive classic automobile, as opposed to social position expressed through driving the latest and greatest)?

I think the newer car is always the more impressive, and Goldfinger's obviously impressed by all that stuff. Also bear in mind that people in the 60's had a different idea of old cars: a thirty year old car then was not a classic as a good car from the 70's is today- it was just old. Perhaps Goldfinger's Rolls was an exception, but my uncle bought himself a 30's Bentley in the 60's for peanuts; they just weren't valued all that highly. Actually, it's not all that different today; a man in a DB7 is always going to be easily outdone by a man in a DB9.
Using the DB5 was logical, made sense from the novel's point of view, was easier to do as they could get hold of them, and also looked nicer and was more up to date, just as the 007 films should be. Having an old Aston tailing an even older Rolls hardly makes them look the most expensive series around!

[Bryce (003)]

Good history there MarkT. Nice observations as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I've gathered, the car John Stears originally got a hold of was a DB4-GT (later to become the DB5).

Dell - Thanks for the wishes on my recovery. Better today, but still just a bit stuffed up.

Also, check out the GF doc on the DVD where Stears talks about modifying the DB5. There were some abandoned devices that were drawn up and some that were just not featured.

- The ram bumpers front and aft.
- Caltrop dispenser.
- Weapons tray under the driver's seat.
- Radio telephone in the driver's side door.

The water cannons in TB were an "add-on". Largely because they wanted to show that the DB5 had not only survived the crash in GF, but had been given a few new tricks once it was restored/repaired by Q Branch.

Man, have they shot up in price though. Back in 2003, I was looking for one and looking hard with cash in the bank. Inside of a year they went from being available for about $70K to well up over $200K.

If I win the lotto or hit it big in Vegas, maybe someday, but it's sure not on the horizon anytime soon.

[Dell Deaton]

Glad to hear about your recovery, Bryce.

But, again, back to your reference to the DB III having been considered. By whom? For how long? Any specific details?

Remember: Goldfinger is not only the movie where James Bond wears a rather outdated Rolex Submariner, but we are shown it in close-up!

Strikes me as sorta inconsistent.

[Mister Asterix]

Good history there MarkT. Nice observations as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I've gathered, the car John Stears originally got a hold of was a DB4-GT (later to become the DB5).

As I understand it, it was Aston Martin’s DB5 prototype, which had started its life as a DB4 before Aston turned it into the first DB5.

[Aston V8]

The V8 Dalton drove was not an old model. I own the V8 that Cubby Brocolli ordered from Aston Martin while he was arranging for the cars for the film and it is a 1989 model. The next model was the Virage

[Bryce (003)]

Glad to hear about your recovery, Bryce.

But, again, back to your reference to the DB III having been considered. By whom? For how long? Any specific details?

Remember: Goldfinger is not only the movie where James Bond wears a rather outdated Rolex Submariner, but we are shown it in close-up!

Strikes me as sorta inconsistent.

Thanks Dell - Yeah, the sniffles and aches are subsiding.

I don't know how long it was considered if really at all of the time, but the front runners at some point (I'll try to find where - I know it's in one of my "Bond Bibles" here somewhere) were a Jaguar and rumored Volvo 1800S (negated as a future 007 was already driving one on TV). There was also talk of the Bentley being used - the MkIV mentioned in the novel TB - but as Fleming had mentioned an AM in the novel and they had a new model, it was the chosen one. Well, two actually.

BTW - side note - Aston V8, if you're who I *think* you may be, we've not spoken in a long while. I'd love to catch up. If I'm wrong, then cheers and apologies. If I'm not, my numbers haven't cahnged. Shoot me a PM or give a ring.

Much like the spy business, the wild wild web is a tricky place.

[Mark_Hazard]

The V8 Dalton drove was not an old model. I own the V8 that Cubby Brocolli ordered from Aston Martin while he was arranging for the cars for the film and it is a 1989 model. The next model was the Virage

Whilst the Volante may have been a current version/model (the one used in TLD was owned by AML Exexutive Chairman Victor Gauntlet at the time), when I borrowed the (AML owned) Bond show car Vantage in the early 90s, it was visited by an Aston Martin dealer who looked over the car and told me that it was not a true Vantage (although it wore the badge), but an earlier V8 model from 1978-1982, possibly an "Oscar India" (which AML experts may have more knowledge of). Due to souvenir hunters (surely not true Bond fans) the engine and chassis plates had been stolen from this vehicle and exact identification could not be made. I understand that this earlier model was very similar in body shape etc to the then current Vantage and everyone hoped that no-one would notice - I remember when I mentioned this discovery to the late Roger Stowers (AML archivist), he asked me to keep the information under my hat - sorry Roger.

[Jim]

Remember: Goldfinger is not only the movie where James Bond wears a rather outdated Rolex Submariner, but we are shown it in close-up!

Strikes me as sorta inconsistent.

Perhaps it's quite easy to tell the difference between two different looking cars than it is between two... watches.

Was wondering when this would subtly turn to issues of the wrist.

[marktmurphy]

Good history there MarkT. Nice observations as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I've gathered, the car John Stears originally got a hold of was a DB4-GT (later to become the DB5).

As I understand it, it was Aston Martin’s DB5 prototype, which had started its life as a DB4 before Aston turned it into the first DB5.

Yes indeed. There are very few differences between a DB4 Vantage and a DB5- a different engine and gearbox and a few little other tweaks. They certainly look identical aside from details like badges, fuel filler caps etc.

The V8 Dalton drove was not an old model. I own the V8 that Cubby Brocolli ordered from Aston Martin while he was arranging for the cars for the film and it is a 1989 model. The next model was the Virage

Whilst the Volante may have been a current version/model (the one used in TLD was owned by AML Exexutive Chairman Victor Gauntlet at the time), when I borrowed the (AML owned) Bond show car Vantage in the early 90s, it was visited by an Aston Martin dealer who looked over the car and told me that it was not a true Vantage (although it wore the badge), but an earlier V8 model from 1978-1982, possibly an "Oscar India" (which AML experts may have more knowledge of). Due to souvenir hunters (surely not true Bond fans) the engine and chassis plates had been stolen from this vehicle and exact identification could not be made. I understand that this earlier model was very similar in body shape etc to the then current Vantage and everyone hoped that no-one would notice - I remember when I mentioned this discovery to the late Roger Stowers (AML archivist), he asked me to keep the information under my hat - sorry Roger.

Interesting stuff; I think I'd heard that they weren't real Vantages before (just the matter of adding a badge, really) but I didn't realise the cars were so much older. Certainly Gauntlet's Volante was a couple of years old: it's a B reg, so a 1985 car- the film was released in 1987!

Here's a little history of the TLD cars:
http://www.astonmart...mes_bond_v8.htm

So, at the start of the film, we see our hero, played for the first time by Timothy Dalton, driving 'B549 WUU' a V8 Volante with Cumberland Grey coachwork and upholstered in black leather. This car was in fact the personal transport of Victor Gauntlett, the Chairman of AML. This car, even without visiting Q branch, was a bit special as it was fitted with a Vantage engine, prior to it being offered as a production car. I eventually saw this particular V8 at the AMOC Horsfall race meeting in 2007, participating in the 007 track parade. During the film, and whilst in Volante form, the V8 did not display any particular 'special features'.

A little later, we again see the Volante, this time in Q's workshop, where it appears to be receiving a hardtop. The script describes the car as being 'winterised'. The result is a V8 saloon; an Oscar India car that you are expected to believe is the Volante with a closed roof - this is of course impossible - but hey, it's only a film. In reality, the factory used a pair of second-hand V8's which were refurbished and modified for filming the stunt work in the mountains of Austria although much of the plot was set in Czechoslovakia. They do have visible 'Vantage' badges, but these I guess were fitted as they would have been seen on the Volante; to all intents and purposes, the car was an 'Oscar India' V8. The V8 coupe is still, I believe jointly owned by AM and Eon Productions, and is occasionally displayed at public events. I have been able to photograph the car at 1986 British Motor Show, Coys Historic Festival, Silverstone, 1998 and the AMOC St. Georges Day Windsor event in 2005.

[ACE]

The best source for all Bond Aston Martin information from this period is the superbly written, lavishly illustrated book, The Most Famous Car In The World by Dave Worrall. This is more than just a story of a car as the book encompasses film making, marketing and merchandising. Detailing the Aston Martin connection from the Fleming novel, Goldfinger, right through the heights of Goldfinger, Thunderball and beyond, this book has unique information and photos and is one of the best Bond books ever written. James Bond Journalism at its finest.

You can still get it here
http://www.bondbooks.biz/

[Blofeld's Cat]

You beat me to it ACE. It is a great book.