21 replies to this topic

[RossMan]

Everyone always comments on their favorite Fleming novels in the Bond series so I thought I'd start a topic on favortite Bond books not written by Fleming.
Here's my list, in no particular order:

1. Doubleshot by Raymond Benson
2. High Time to Kill by Raymond Benson
3. Icebreaker by John Gardner
4. Nobody Lives Forever by John Gardner
5. Win, Loose, or Die by John Gardner
6. Colonel Sun by Kingsely Amis
7. Role of Honor by John Gardner

[zencat]

blofelds_cat (17 Sep, 2001 03:29 p.m.):
Do Benson's (and Gardner's for that matter) books follow in sequence or can they be read out of published order?

Benson's HIGH TIME TO KILL, DOUBLESHOT, & NEVER DREAM OF DYING follow in sequence. His other two books, ZERO MINUS TEN and THE FACTS OF DEATH can be read in any order. Gardner's last three books, NEVER SEND FLOWERS, SEAFIRE, & COLD FALL follow in a loose sequence. His others can be read in any order.

Yes, HIGH TIME TO KILL would be a great place to start.

[Blofeld's Cat]

zencat (17 Sep, 2001 03:55 p.m.):
Yes, HIGH TIME TO KILL would be a great place to start.

I'm a bit worried that starting with the best may lessen any subsequent books I read.
I'll still have to read the two sequels if I like HTTK.

[zencat]

blofelds_cat (17 Sep, 2001 04:45 p.m.):

zencat (17 Sep, 2001 03:55 p.m.):
Yes, HIGH TIME TO KILL would be a great place to start.

I'm a bit worried that starting with the best may lessen any subsequent books I read. I'll still have to read the two sequels if I like HTTK.

Understandable. But who knows what you'll consider "the best" once you get into them. With Benson and Gardner, opinions vary according to taste. Some of the books are experimental, some are more classical Bond tales.

Should you start w/ HTTK and the other two books of "the Union Trilogy"? I don't see why not. But maybe someone here can make a case for reading the Benson books in order.

With Gardner I'd say you should read the books in order. Gardner's books started off pretty good, then got progressively worse (with a couple exceptions).

[The Admiral]

My favourite must be HTTK by RB. It's got such a great story to it. Aswell as introducing the Union.

[RossMan]

[quote]blofelds_cat (17 Sep, 2001 04:45 p.m.):
I'm a bit worried that starting with the best may lessen any subsequent books I read.

If you start reading any from Gardner's series, there are a few that you should not read until the very end for they are not exactly his best works.
They are:
Death is Forever: too many doublecrosses and a plot that goes nowhere. Basically a re-make of No Deals, Mr. Bond. Pick NDMB if you really have too read any of those two.

The Man From Barbarossa- a good espionage novel but fails as a Bond novel. Gardner should have wrote this using someone else in Bond's place. Very political, complicated, and hard to follow at times.

Gardner "classics" would be, Icebreaker, Role of Honor, Nobody Lives Forever, Win Loose or Die, Brokenclaw, and Never Send Flowers. These are must reads should you get into Gardner.
As for Benson, you most certainly should start with the Union trilogy, though Benson has yet to write a poor Bond novel, those three are his best.

[zencat]

RossMan (17 Sep, 2001 10:02 p.m.):
Gardner "classics" would be, Icebreaker, Role of Honor, Nobody Lives Forever, Win Loose or Die, Brokenclaw, and Never Send Flowers. These are must reads should you get into Gardner.

I would add LICENSE RENEWED and FOR SPECIAL SERVICES to this list as well.

I'm with you on the Gardner books to avoid.

[zencat]

Fav. non-Flemings:

1. HIGH TIME TO KILL / Benson
2. NEVER DREAM OF DYING / Benson
3. COLONEL SUN / Amis
4. DOUBLESHOT / Benson
5. LICENSE RENEWED / Gardner
6. ICEBREAKER / Gardner
7. BROKENCLAW / Gardner

[RossMan]

The biggest problem with Gardner is that his books don't really "feel" like either the literary or movie Bond which is quite awkward at times. But Benson has captured the literary Bond perfectly, and brings back many Fleming characters, making his books seem more like a continuation of Fleming's series.

[zencat]

I couldn't agree more.

[zencat]

I couldn't agree more.

[RossMan]

Since Gardner never really had his stories fully plotted out before he wrote one thus recieving various responses from the fans, could it be possible that is why Raymond Benson MUST write a detailed outline first as part of his contract with Glidrose?

Benson's books always feel that time and effort were taken into putting together his books. (Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Gardner tried his best but in some cases the quality just isn't there.)

I remember someone saying on a different topic at CB.N that a Bond fan should not be in control of Bond which I must I disagree with. It's because Benson is a fan so tneds to think like a fan and generally knows what a fan would come to expect and want from Bond and is able to appeal to both the literary and movie Bond.

[scaramanga]

I agree, although Gardner stated in a recent interview that he shouldn't have taken on writing Bond, but I do feel sorry for him for all the illnesses he has suffered and the flack he gets for his novels. In my opinion there are only a few which are really piss poor.

Anyway, my favourite Non-Fleming Bond novels (in no particular order):
1. Colonel Sun - Amis
2. Icebreaker - Gardner
3. No Deals Mr Bond - Gardner
4. Win, Lose or Die - Gardner
5. High Time to Kill - Benson
6. Doubleshot - Benson
7. Never Dream of Dying - Benson

And when Raymond Benson does eventually retire in years to come, I want Stephen Leather to continue the series.

[Blue Eyes]

She wasn't entirely a female Q. Her name is Q'ute (nicknamed by Bond, fancy that!!)

Basically she's a female assistance in Q-Branch. Much like the one we see in FYEO who brings Bond and Q the coffee.

[Blofeld's Cat]

My fave non-Fleming Bond novel?

Colonel Sun

Gardner/Benson books never took my fancy. Why Amis never got the opportunity to write more Bond novels beats me.

[Blofeld's Cat]

I read somewhere he also introduced a female Q.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think her nickname was Qute (as in cute)?

[RossMan]

I would have liked to have seen more Bond stories from Amis as well, he captured the Ian Fleming novels the best. Christopher Wood did pretty good with his novilizations.

I am probably in a minoritity when I say that I am fan of Gardner's Bond series but to me he brought some original stories to Bond, 007 going back to the Navy, a team of agents travelling into Arctic Russia, introducing Blofeld's daughter, etc.
But I am very displeased with his formation of Microglobe One. That was very confusing and took away the enjoyment of SeaFire and Cold Fall somewhat.

[RossMan]

Thankfully, Raymond Benson had decided to drop that Mircoglobe One rubbish.

Gardner's stories probably would have been much better had he spent more time working with well structured and detailed plots like Benson does. I don't see how anyone can write a 300 page spy novel and not have at least some sort of outline to work with and I understand that is what Gardner often did. But when he really tried hard to come up with a good Bond tale he does succeed, which is the case with his earliest works.

[zencat]

RossMan (13 Sep, 2001 03:13 a.m.):
I am probably in a minoritity when I say that I am fan of Gardner's Bond series but to me he brought some original stories to Bond, 007 going back to the Navy, a team of agents travelling into Arctic Russia, introducing Blofeld's daughter, etc.

I'm with you in that minority RossMan. I enjoyed the Gardner series for just that same reason. I look to the Bond books to give me an experience the movies can't (or won't). Even though his books were hit and miss, I appreciated Gardner's attempt to create original 007 stories which took chances. Yes, WIN, LOSE OR DIE is a great example of this. So is ICEBREAKER and NOBODY LIVES FOREVER.

I agree he did go too far w/ MicroGlobe One. But at the time I sensed he was nearing end of his series and I was curious to see how far he would go.

[RossMan]

John Gardner is sort of the Roger Moore of the literary James Bond, though his books were good they weren't very Flemingish and he just hung around too long. Gardner's boredom with the character became obvious with Death is Forever where he basically writes a new version of No Deals, Mr. Bond. Never Send Flowers and Brokenclaw are the only real exceptions of his later books.

[zencat]

Once again, RossMan, we are in complete agreement.

Glad to see you appreciate NSF and Brokenclaw. Yes, these books tend to be lumped in with the later Gardners and dismissed, but I think they're two of his better books. I always felt this way about Brokenclaw... I just came around on NSF after a recent re-read.

[Blofeld's Cat]

blofelds_cat (13 Sep, 2001 01:56 a.m.):
Gardner/Benson books never took my fancy.

High Time To Kill figure very high on both the above lists, so I might read it and see how Benson handles the world of Bond.
The last time I read a Bond novel for the first time was Col. Sun in 1974!
Do Benson's (and Gardner's for that matter) books follow in sequence or can they be read out of published order?