14 replies to this topic

[Victor Zokas]

Apologies if this has been done already, but I was wondering how you rate Amis, Wood, Gardner and Benson up against Fleming?

Do you rate them anywhere near him? Or better? Who has created the plots and characters you've enjoyed most?

Do you find it possible to compare the authors at all given the different times they have written in?

[RossMan]

I love just about all of Gardner's except for two or three, and even those I enjoyed the first time through. I get a little picky with Benson but at the moment The Man With The Red Tattoo is probably my favorite post-Fleming, I'll have to read it again soon to be sure.

I loved Col. Sun but it would be easier for me to talk about Amis if he wrote more novels like the others. It's hard to compare him to the others when he only did one.

Wood was good, I love the TSWLM, which for me is just as much a part of the literary Bond as Casino Royale.

[RossMan]

General Koskov (07 May, 2002 03:34 a.m.):
I've attempted the book with 'Cabal' in it and TMFB, and COLD.

No wonder you don't care for Gardner's books! I don't like DIS or TMFB and I thought CF was so-so. Read Icebreaker or Nobody Lives Forever or Brokenclaw, your opinion on Gardner will change.

[Hardyboy]

To my mind, Ian Fleming's novels are the only TRUE Bond novels. Fleming drew from his own life, his own experiences, his friends, his interests, and whatnot. . .they are reflections of his personality and mind and they are saturated with his presence. All the writers who've followed in his wake have had the difficulty of trying to recreate Fleming's world, and as a result even the best of them seem a little hollow. That said. . .

Kingsley Amis was no doubt a better WRITER than Fleming--more rounded, more literary, and more versatile (as an academic, I can really relate to "Lucky Jim"). "Colonel Sun" is a pretty good book, and in a lot of ways it's very daring--it's far more sexual and more political than anything attempted by Fleming. Its downfall is that dull, lugubrious middle section. Still and all, I'd love to see this back in print.

I've read only Christopher Wood's novelization of "Spy" (I haven't been able to track down "Moonraker"), and I'm impressed. He really does manage to capture a good deal of Fleming's style and I like the way he made the screen story conform more to the literary world than to the cinematic one. It's a shame Glidrose didn't give the job of resurrecting Bond to Wood instead of to. . .

John Gardner. His books are often fun, but I don't think they have much depth to them, and I hate what he did to the Bond character. Bond in Gardner's novels is constantly being fooled as to the identity of the villain and being sucked into circumstances that are totally beyond his control. His Bond is a pretty weak character; and Gardner's plots tend to be more like mysteries than thrillers. Not very Bondian, in my view.

I think Raymond Benson gets better with every novel. His books are fun and Benson is certainly more faithful to Fleming than was Gardner. The downfall is that Benson can't seem to get the hang of the British idiom and the books always seem more American than English in outlook. Also, his first three books were more like the films than the literary world of Bond. "High Time to Kill" is really just "For Your Eyes Only;" but instead of two sides chasing top-secret technology inside a sunken ship, they're looking for top-secret technology in a crashed plane. There are also bits from "GoldenEye" (theft of technology from a lab, followed by lab blowing up; main villain is friend/rival of Bond) and "Thunderball" (SPECTRE-like organization). Even "Facts of Death" borrows from the film of "Thunderball". . .redheaded female assassin? Anyone see that before?

Anyway, thanks for reading.

[Jim]

Depends what you're looking for. If it's the stories, all have been pretty much equivalent. The more the series goes on, the harder it is to come up with an original tale, and I don't envy Raymond Benson that.

If it's the telling of the story, hmm...all a matter of style, some more involving than others.

The only way to truly compare all the Bond authors is to have them write the same story and examine the results. As that's not going to happen, it's invidious to compare the weaknesses of The Man with the Red Tattoo to any Fleming or Gardner. It has to be considered on its own merits, such as they are.

[freemo]

I'm a real ammetur when it comes to the books, so don't be too harsh on me.

Obviosuly Fleming is the King, you won't find may who'd despute that. All his books were terrific, even TMWTGG which may think of as an unfinished dud had some great parts to it. Flemings books were so eleborate, innovative, with great characters, plots and locations, and had that element of fantasy which I think is lacking from the other ones. When asked to pick my favorite Flemings, I end up mentioning just about all of them, certainly near everything From Russia with Love and beyond.

Amis, I liked Colonel Sun, very enjoyable, well crafted, but you know, I don't think he would have been able to do a series of Bodn novels, don't ask me why.

I haven't read all of Gardners, but I've liked what I read. Obviously he likes his plot twists and so forth. He came up with some good ideas. NLF (is that the one ?) with the head hunting think. Apart from COLD I haven't read his later books, so I can comment on his apparent loss of form as it were in his second half. People say his knowledge of Bond wasn't great, but I though the references to Fleming he made in his books were pretty good, appropraite rather than put in for the sake of it, and not done too often.

I've only read ZMT from Benson, I remeber reading teh first few chapers then putting it aside for a while for some reason, but then later read teh whole thing and quite liked it. Haven't read any others, but let me just say that the titles (which don't really mean much anyway) are average at best (except for DS and maybe HTTK).

I'll now pass the baton over to someone to knows what they are talking about....

[Victor Zokas]

Yeah I've not read DS or NDOD by Benson yet. I was thinking of re-reading some of the novels and wondered what the general opinion of them was before picking some out. I haven't read any Bond for a 2 or 3 years now.

I enjoyed Fleming of course, but found Amis a bit slow in the central part of CS.

Gardner I think was good in some books, but those double and triple crosses were sometimes tiresome, especially in Icebreaker. TMFB was a bit slow for my liking too.

Too early to say with Benson for me, as I've only tried some of his and can't remember them that clearly at the moment to judge them.

I think I might try DS and NDOD next. That'll put off deciding whether to try Gardner or Fleming again.

[General Koskov]

Of course nobody does it better than Fleming. Anyone care to challenge?
But anyway:

I haven't read CS, but I hear this is very close to Fleming's style: fantastic. Wood does the best job at recreating Fleming's style (only read The Spy Who Loved Me though) but one flaw he has is not cutting enough of that Lotus Esprit chase out, and the dreadful: 'All those feathers and he still couldn't fly.' . At least he doesn't have Bond shoot a rocket at the Bell chopper!

Benson's books are OK. He doesn't seem to get the idea of: most Englishmen are not enemies of England. Americanism seems non-existent thanks to Gildrose's editing.

His novelisations amount to a screenplay with some [cuss]--also known as 'backstory' to the naive--about Ms Lin investigating General Chang. Wow, she knocks out a guy and steals some files. The World is not Enough is not much better, only the fact that the film is better than Tomorrow Never Dies helps Benson.

Gardner was quite good at novelising Licence to Kill, but I hear GoldenEye was just a glorified screenplay, and first draught to boot. I've attempted the book with 'Cabal' in it (either NLF, or DIF) and TMFB, and COLD.

Attempted says it all. I did go at them with a 'bad' mindset though. When I finish JB: TABO007 (how's that for an acronym? ;d ) I'll try Gardner's books from the top.

[Victor Zokas]

Mister Asterix (10 May, 2002 04:58 p.m.):
Amis/Lazenby
One Shot. Really the closest stylistically to Fleming/Connery, but the closeness brings comparisons that Amis/Lazenby will never win. A quite good story that is often overlooked.

Poor Kingsley Amis.

[Mister Asterix]

I said this ages ago in another post, but I have always compared the Bond authors to the Bond actors.

Fleming/Connery:
This is Bond, what all others must strive for, but cannot hope to top.

Amis/Lazenby
One Shot. Really the closest stylistically to Fleming/Connery, but the closeness brings comparisons that Amis/Lazenby will never win. A quite good story that is often overlooked.

Gardner/Moore
Made Bond his own for better and for worse. Started strong, got stronger, but trailed off in the end. Has the same number of outings as Fleming/Connery, more if you don't count short story collections/Never Say Never Again.

Benson/Dalton
A welcomed return to Fleming's Bond, but there seems to be something missing. Still quite a fun collection and a needed change of pace.


I must hope that should Benson ever need a replacement that this next author will be able to blend the best of all of his predecessors with his own style and give Bond a strong, fresh new life the way Brosnan has for the cinematic 007.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Mister Asterix

I said this ages ago in another post, but I have always compared the Bond authors to the Bond actors.

Fleming/Connery:
This is Bond, what all others must strive for, but cannot hope to top.

Amis/Lazenby
One Shot. Really the closest stylistically to Fleming/Connery, but the closeness brings comparisons that Amis/Lazenby will never win. A quite good story that is often overlooked.

Gardner/Moore
Made Bond his own for better and for worse. Started strong, got stronger, but trailed off in the end. Has the same number of outings as Fleming/Connery, more if you don't count short story collections/Never Say Never Again.

Benson/Dalton
A welcomed return to Fleming's Bond, but there seems to be something missing. Still quite a fun collection and a needed change of pace.


I must hope that should Benson ever need a replacement that this next author will be able to blend the best of all of his predecessors with his own style and give Bond a strong, fresh new life the way Brosnan has for the cinematic 007.  

Interesting comparisons, Mr A, and I think I'd agree with all but one: I feel Benson (regardless of his evident love for Fleming) is closer to Brosnan than Dalton, since his Bond is an all-round "nice guy" and his novels seem to lack grittiness and angst, in spite of their more graphic sex and violence. Like Brosnan, Benson puts up a very good front but at the end of the day simply lacks depth (IMO).

To my mind, a "Daltonite" continuation novelist would be someone whose books thrilled the Fleming purists for being as close to the real deal as possible (in that sense, I suppose Amis would be the Dalton of the bunch). Benson gives us nods, winks and tributes to Fleming, but only very rarely the voice and feel of Fleming.

I'd say that Benson is to Fleming what Brosnan is to Connery - pupil to master.

I agree in particular with the Gardner/Moore comparison: great entertainment, delivered by a real pro, but next to no trace of Ian Fleming's 007.

[zencat]

Mister Asterix nails it.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Victor Zokas

Apologies if this has been done already, but I was wondering how you rate Amis, Wood, Gardner and Benson up against Fleming?

Do you rate them anywhere near him? Or better? Who has created the plots and characters you've enjoyed most?

Do you find it possible to compare the authors at all given the different times they have written in?  

In terms of writing talent, I'd rank them:

KINGSLEY AMIS

IAN FLEMING

JOHN GARDNER

RAYMOND BENSON.

In terms of the enjoyment they've given me:

IAN FLEMING

KINGSLEY AMIS

RAYMOND BENSON

JOHN GARDNER.

For me, Amis' "Colonel Sun" is even better than some of the Flemings. Neither Gardner nor Benson are remotely in the Amis/Fleming quality league, though.

[Cesari]

I have read all James Bond books, novels, short stories and novelizations from CS to DAD.
For me Fleming's work is unbeatable. The best. The creator. Nothing more to say!
Then there is Amis book. When I first read CS a long time ago I was deceived because I couldn't find Fleming's way of writing in it. Now that times has gone by I find it much better. The best non Fleming in facts.
Benson's work third. I love all his books overall HTTK, NDOD and TMWTRT.
I don't like gardner's excepted one or two. But generally I find them boring with plots losing themselves and too many double and triple crosses.

[Lancaster]

I have read them all and could go into a long answer to this question but the only thing I will say is that no one comes close to Fleming.

I have read the Fleming books several times but only the others once each.

I would urge anyone who is yet to read a Fleming book to start at the begining and work through them all. You will not be disappointed.