19 replies to this topic

[Dell Deaton]

After watching Casino Royale on DVD w/ my son over this past weekend, I got to thinking about the so-called "re-boot" and all the "agent in the making, not yet refined stuff" we were promised. Much as I thoroughly enjoyed this new take on a favorite character, I'm not really seeing it.

• Love interest killed early on for getting close to James Bond: See Goldfinger, woman painted gold.
• Changed watches: See Thunderball, Rolex to Breitling.
• Poisoned: See The Spy Who Loved Me, blatant disregard for enemy assets!
• Wrecked his first Aston Martin: Again, see Goldfinger, attempted escape from henchmen.
• Fell ultimately in love: See On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Tracy Bond.

What am I missing and/or misinterpreting?

[Tarl_Cabot]

He was tortured and nearly emasculated...his ego was bruised as a result. So, I assume he'll be wiser for the wear.

[MkB]

Well, he acts quite foolishly during his Madagascar assignment, and his partner (Carter) is a dummy. His reaction to neutralize the bombmaker was quite out of proportion (blasting an embassy!!).
Maybe he learnt a certain sense of measure, and to choose his partners better (or to o by himself)?
He is also badly betrayed, by Vesper, and supposedly by Mathis (which is unsure now, but in CR he appears finally as a bad guy). The lesson should be: watch your back yourself!

He was tortured and nearly emasculated...his ego was bruised as a result. So, I assume he'll be wiser for the wear.

Er... Do you mean that emasculation makes men wiser? Well, all things considered, maybe... after all, it makes cats nicer, that's certainly a clue

[Tarl_Cabot]

He learned to display some "sort of judgement"?

I do think he handled his poker victory with more taste than he did when he won the Aston. It was more sportsmanlike although he really wasn't offensive just maybe a bit callous and poker is a callous game. Ah well, he does dress better in the end at least!

[Bondian]

"he chose...poorly".

I don't think Bond learnt much in Casino Royale. He came across as a neurotic idiot who made so many mistakes one wonders how he got his 'license to kilt'.

Still. Maybe he'll "grow up, OO7" in Quantum of Solace when he realises that he needs to keep fit in order to pork Stacey Sutton in A View to a Kill.

[james st.john smythe]

i defo think he was richer for the experience.

[Publius]

Well, this was a reboot, so lessons "learned" (and I'd argue he definitely never learned any in the other movies) in previous movies don't count.

Anyway, he was an arrogant bastard at the beginning of CR, but Vesper starts to whittle away at that. After realizing what she did, and to a lesser extent what Mathis may or may not have done, he decides he was foolish to have let his guard down, question his cold nature, and reconsider his line of work. He resolves to once again be the same, simple man he was when he shot Dryden in cold blood, but whether he likes it or not he now carries with him the pain and wisdom of experiencing the alternative to the emotionally easy (and thus, shallow) route he has chosen in life. He learned and changed, but the results (so far) were a mix of the positive and negative.

Just my two cents.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Well, this was a reboot, so lessons "learned" (and I'd argue he definitely never learned any in the other movies) in previous movies don't count.

Anyway, he was an arrogant bastard at the beginning of CR, but Vesper starts to whittle away at that. After realizing what she did, and to a lesser extent what Mathis may or may not have done, he decides he was foolish to have let his guard down, question his cold nature, and reconsider his line of work. He resolves to once again be the same, simple man he was when he shot Dryden in cold blood, but whether he likes it or not he now carries with him the pain and wisdom of experiencing the alternative to the emotionally easy (and thus, shallow) route he has chosen in life. He learned and changed, but the results (so far) were a mix of the positive and negative.

Just my two cents.

Excellent. You might as well call it a day on this thread.

[Mr_Wint]

This Bond-begins aspect is so exaggerated, IMO. Change one of M's lines in the actual movie and you can't see that it's supposed to be a Bond "at the beginning".

[Mr. Blofeld]

Well, this was a reboot, so lessons "learned" (and I'd argue he definitely never learned any in the other movies) in previous movies don't count.

Anyway, he was an arrogant bastard at the beginning of CR, but Vesper starts to whittle away at that. After realizing what she did, and to a lesser extent what Mathis may or may not have done, he decides he was foolish to have let his guard down, question his cold nature, and reconsider his line of work. He resolves to once again be the same, simple man he was when he shot Dryden in cold blood, but whether he likes it or not he now carries with him the pain and wisdom of experiencing the alternative to the emotionally easy (and thus, shallow) route he has chosen in life. He learned and changed, but the results (so far) were a mix of the positive and negative.

Just my two cents.

Well, what do you think he should learn in the next film to become even more like the 007 we all know and love?

[dinovelvet]

Well, what do you think he should learn in the next film to become even more like the 007 we all know and love?

Work on his eyebrow raising techniques and learn how to make a quiche.

[00Twelve]

Above all, he learned 1) what The Big Picture

[Tarl_Cabot]

Well, what do you think he should learn in the next film to become even more like the 007 we all know and love?

Work on his eyebrow raising techniques and learn how to make a quiche.

Safari suit time! Comon James, you're going to be at Machu Pichu!

[DaveBond21]

As M says at the end "So you've learned your lesson".


One of the main lessons is "trust no-one". Another is "think about the big picture", something Bond doesn't understand when he kills just one bomb-maker, Mollaka, at the beginning, leaving the trail potentially cold (it's only Bond's ingenuity that leads him back onto the trail). He finally gets this concept while being tortured by Le Chiffre.

He also learns to think first, before acting.

[HH007]

What did Bond learn?

I don't know, I guess he learned... the "larger picture"... to never drink a martini you don't make yourself... that getting hit in the nuts with a large, knotted rope can really hurt... that English babes with vaguely French accents are not to be trusted... oh, and he finally learned M's name and where she lived. Now what other Bond has done that?

[dogmanstar]

I have to admit I was puzzled, too, by the reason to reboot. But on repeated watchings of CR, I am beginning to think what Bond learns in this film may be more subtle and over-arching than it first appears. Bond's conversation about being a 'bad man' with Solange really caught for me the spirit of Fleming's CR Bond--not much humor, a hired killer, very workmanlike, and even a poor relationship with M. (In which novel does Bond actually feel hatred toward M? You can see that kind of contempt here.)

Yet, he begins to understand M's wisdom, he falls for Vesper, he's no longer doing married women (just because they are married), and he begins to round out, become more of a three dimensional man.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it--probably am--but that seems to me very similar to some of the progression of Bond in Fleming--from the cold assassin in CR to the more human Bond of OHMSS and YOLT.

[00Twelve]

I have to admit I was puzzled, too, by the reason to reboot. But on repeated watchings of CR, I am beginning to think what Bond learns in this film may be more subtle and over-arching than it first appears. Bond's conversation about being a 'bad man' with Solange really caught for me the spirit of Fleming's CR Bond--not much humor, a hired killer, very workmanlike, and even a poor relationship with M. (In which novel does Bond actually feel hatred toward M? You can see that kind of contempt here.)

Yet, he begins to understand M's wisdom, he falls for Vesper, he's no longer doing married women (just because they are married), and he begins to round out, become more of a three dimensional man.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it--probably am--but that seems to me very similar to some of the progression of Bond in Fleming--from the cold assassin in CR to the more human Bond of OHMSS and YOLT.

I don't think you're reading too much into it. I feel much the same way.

[Jim]

He realises that he is utterly expendable during the "bigger picture" reference in the torture sequence - Le Chiffre is right in what he asserts, and Bond knows it.

Probably the most radical statement about the film Bond for years - he has tended to be invulnerable and indispensible otherwise. Only two films previously we have Q banging on about "But this is 007!" - as if that's meant to be important, somehow.

[Dell Deaton]

Regarding the "big picture" and "expendible" comments, is the implication that he did not realize these things going into Casino Royale?

Notwithstanding M's verbally flogging him in her home, it seemed to me that before even talking w/ her that Bond was well on his way to going after something bigger than just one bomb maker. He'd stolen the cell phone, hacked into M's computer, and seemed on his way to track Elipsis upstream w/out any prompting from his boss. That reads "big picture" to me.

In terms of being expendible, again, in his initial dialogue w/ M here, it didn't seem to come as any big surprise to him that "Double-0s have a short life expectancy."

If I'm remembering the Ian Fleming novel correctly, it seems to me that the lesson he learned there was that he did not want to be expendible, that during the torture he'd come to the (new) conclusion that he suddenly liked living. But I don't know that I saw this "lesson" in the film.

For what it's worth, these last two points seem consistent w/ the way the torture and its aftermath played out in Die Another Day.

[Jim]

Regarding the "big picture" and "expendible" comments, is the implication that he did not realize these things going into Casino Royale?

Notwithstanding M's verbally flogging him in her home, it seemed to me that before even talking w/ her that Bond was well on his way to going after something bigger than just one bomb maker. He'd stolen the cell phone, hacked into M's computer, and seemed on his way to track Elipsis upstream w/out any prompting from his boss. That reads "big picture" to me.

In terms of being expendible, again, in his initial dialogue w/ M here, it didn't seem to come as any big surprise to him that "Double-0s have a short life expectancy."

If I'm remembering the Ian Fleming novel correctly, it seems to me that the lesson he learned there was that he did not want to be expendible, that during the torture he'd come to the (new) conclusion that he suddenly liked living. But I don't know that I saw this "lesson" in the film.

For what it's worth, these last two points seem consistent w/ the way the torture and its aftermath played out in Die Another Day.

Interesting.

I read it as the "bigger picture" being his minor part in it all and the comment in M's flat as simply backchat, the irony of his flippant words coming out in the torture sequence. But I accept it's all capable of a number of interpretations.