23 replies to this topic

[zencat]

Okay, here's the thing. Bond's double-O status is taken away in YOLT. Is it resorted in TMWTGG? I don't recall, but I don't think it is. Also, reading the very fine James Bond The Man and His World by Henry Chancellor, I learned that a license to kill is taken away at age 45 (not sure what Fleming book this is mentioned in). So if we accept the 1920 birth date, James Bond is 46 or 47 in 1967 when DMC is set.

Taking all this into account, how can Bond still be "007" in Devil May Care? Maybe his license will be renewed for one final mission (hmm, licensed renewed, that sounds familiar )?

I wonder if any of this will be addressed in DMC. Or maybe Faulks will just blow past it as Amis did in Colonel Sun.

[triviachamp]

He could just bump up Bond's age as Fleming always did.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Maybe he'll be 7777 again.

[zencat]

He could just bump up Bond's age as Fleming always did.

He could. But IFP has gone to such lengths to established a set continuity in lit Bond world, it would be a shame to start fudging it again. And didn't Faulks say his Bond was "the old gunfighter" come back for one last mission. Sounds like he's embracing Bond's age. Also, what about the question of when (or if) his 00 status was restored. Again, does anyone recall if it's restored in TMWTGG?

Now, I'm not a stickler for continuity when it comes to Bond, so so if Faulks wants to blow past this as Amis did, I'm fine with that. However, if Devil May Care aspires to be a true "continuation" of the Fleming canon as advertised (with Faulks "writing as Ian Fleming" remember), seems this should be addressed, wouldn't you think? Fleming may fudge Bond birth date, but he didn't ignore story continuity, especially in his later books.

[K1Bond007]

Bond is a 00 in Golden Gun, I believe, though it may not be formally said. I always view The Man with the Golden Gun as a 00-trial for Bond following his brainwashing. It's an assignment given to him to test his trustworthiness and whether he's still got 'it'. I don't remember specifically. M probably refers to him as 007 at the very least out of habit and as Gardner once wrote (and I believe would be the case) he'll always be 007 to him.

I haven't read The Man With The Golden Gun in a long while though.

[Loomis]

Bond's double-O status is taken away in YOLT.

Is it? I don't recall that. Granted, near the start of the book, M does question Bond's abilities as a result of his going to pieces after Tracy's death, but if memory serves his solution is to send him on an almost impossible mission in the hope of really challenging him and thus restoring him to his old self - he doesn't strip him of his Double-O status.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Bond's double-O status is taken away in YOLT.

Is it? I don't recall that. Granted, near the start of the book, M does question Bond's abilities as a result of his going to pieces after Tracy's death, but if memory serves his solution is to send him on an almost impossible mission in the hope of really challenging him and thus restoring him to his old self - he doesn't strip him of his Double-O status.

I believe he's restored by the end of TMWTGG.

[Major Tallon]

Okay, here's the thing. Bond's double-O status is taken away in YOLT. Is it resorted in TMWTGG? I don't recall, but I don't think it is. Also, reading the very fine James Bond The Man and His World by Henry Chancellor, I learned that a license to kill is taken away at age 45 (not sure what Fleming book this is mentioned in). So if we accept the 1920 birth date, James Bond is 46 or 47 in 1967 when DMC is set.

Taking all this into account, how can Bond still be "007" in Devil May Care? Maybe his license will be renewed for one final mission (hmm, licensed renewed, that sounds familiar )?

I wonder if any of this will be addressed in DMC. Or maybe Faulks will just blow past it as Amis did in Colonel Sun.

I don't think it's an issue. Bond is referred to as "007" in both chapters two and three of TMWTGG. In chapter 17, M's coded message begins: "M personal for 0h0hSeven eyes only," and Bond signs his reply "OhOhSeven." There's no mention whatever of the four-digit diplomatic section number which, I assume, he was given temporarily solely for the Japanese assignment in YOLT. As for Devil May Care and any future Bond adventures, I doubt there'll even be a comment. James Bond is 007!

Edited by Major Tallon, 26 December 2007 - 09:37 PM.

[Loomis]

My mistake. Having checked my copy of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, it seems that Bond is indeed taken out of the Double-O section. Sorry, zencat.

[OmarB]

The 45 year old retirement thing for 00 agents was mentioned in the first half of Moonraker when Bond is in his office going through papers. One of those "For whom god wishes to destroy he makes board" scenes.

As for him still being a 00 in DMC. I don't remember his status towards the end of Fleming's or Amis' but in Gardner's License Renewed they make a point of saying the 00 section is gone but M says "To me you will always be 007."

[TheREAL008]

Then perhaps DMC will be the last true mission of Fleming's Bond whereas Amis, Gardener's, and Benson's is just a diffrent offshoot of James Bond?

Anyone's guess is as good as mine.

[Byron]

Then perhaps DMC will be the last true mission of Fleming's Bond whereas Amis, Gardener's, and Benson's is just a diffrent offshoot of James Bond?

Anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Can someone help me out here:

Is DMC supposed to be set between TMWTGG and CS?
Or set after CS?
Or after TMWTGG and it ignores CS?

Secondly, i was reading the "James Bond Dossier" by Kingsley Amis and on page 33 when speaking about the impression of Bond's drinking and smoking on the male reader, it says:

"It enables us to feel devil-may-care at little trouble or expense".

Surely a coincidance but a neat one!

[K1Bond007]

Then perhaps DMC will be the last true mission of Fleming's Bond whereas Amis, Gardener's, and Benson's is just a diffrent offshoot of James Bond?

Anyone's guess is as good as mine.

Can someone help me out here:

Is DMC supposed to be set between TMWTGG and CS?
Or set after CS?
Or after TMWTGG and it ignores CS?

Fleming only. So C. At best (as far as continuation authors go), it may hint at Young Bond. I see that as a real possibility.

[David Schofield]

The issues in Fleming's infamously lax continuity and playing around with Bond's age,as Kevin points out, would seem, most likely, to be addressed, and therefore presumably 'corrected' by Higson in YB5.

My preference would be for Faulks to pick Bond up in clear-water post CS (as I'd hate to lose Amis magnificent work from continuity).

But consider - in Final Fling's publicity blurb, Sam Weinberg has Bond out of the service by the mid-60s....

Will IFP address this? Will the notoriously unrealiable (viz continuity) MS Weinberg resolve the matter? Can't see IFP publishing two volumes in the same timeline within the same month which conflict...

[Scrambled Eggs]

I've been writing a fan fic novel (almost finished it) set after MWTGG and the same problem occured to me.

At first I was going to make it a big part of the plot. I was going to call it "7777", Bond was irritated by the cocky youngsters with big sideburns taking over the double 0 section and in the final chapter M awarded him honorary life membership of the double 0 section.

What i discovered is that, while its nice for things to make sense on the Fleming timeline, all that "Bond getting to grips with middle age" stuff is really ing boring.

If anyone can succeed in making it not ing boring, then I'm sure Sebastian Faulks can. But I don't think he'll make a big deal of Bond's age. Fleming said something about Bond being "always in his late 30s" and thats surely how Faulks has approached DMC.

I fancy he'll either ignore the thing in Moonraker about mandatory retirement or perhaps explain it away with a throwaway sentence about the rule being scrapped.

Edited by Scrambled Eggs, 31 December 2007 - 02:55 AM.

[MHazard]

Interestingly, I've just started re-reading TMWGG. M selects Bond because he needs a "gunman" to kill Scaramanga. I think that makes it obvious that Bond is restored to the 00 section (a post above cites references which seem to make that explicit). As for him being to old to be a 00, I think this can be easily explained by a combination of:
1. The rule is changed or M ignores it. It's probably M's rule and if he wants Bond to be a 00 after 45, Bond's gonna be one (keep in mind that 45 was perceived as a much older age than we perceive 45 now-I hope); 2. Bond doesn't seem to age as fast as normal people in Fleming's continuity, this is not due to magic powers, just dramatic license and some ambiguity about the years in which stories take place-I think Fleming gave these issues a lot less thought than we did. When he began Bond he probably didn't foresee how long he would continue writing him.

What I would also note is that Bond does age and progress in the novel. With respect to Scrambled Eggs, whose writing I enjoy, I think Bond coming to grips with middle age can be interesting and is reflected at times by Fleming in, for example, his attitude in the TLD and the beginning of OHMSS and in the beginning of TB where a hungover Bond is in danger of losing his physical edge. By TMWGG Bond seems to me to be either approaching 40 rapidly or already there. But I'm sure he's still a 00. He reflects in MR that he expects to be killed before reaching the mandatory retirement age and most of the books make it clear that he has no affection for staff work, but likes the dangerous assignments. Doesn't seem like he'd be interested in staying in the service if he wasn't a 00 (although he does show talent for staffwork when it is forced upon him).

[Scrambled Eggs]

Just remembered that Faulks has said this:

[quote]

[darkpath]

Purely speculation on my part; however, if Bond is mid-thirties in most of the Fleming stories and if the mandatory retirement age for the 00 section is 45, is not conceivable in the 10 years necessary to pass for Bond to go from 35 to 45 that the departmental policy might have been amended? I don't really see this as a difficult point to address. Certainly, M could have changed the policy to be mandatory at 50, and at his discretion at 45, without anyone batting an eye. I guess I'm not seeing this as a problem and not really grasping what the fuss is.

Sorry for my shortcomings Chaps.

Cheers

[sharpshooter]

I think I view DMC as the following:

Set after TMWTGG. Ignoring CS, and serving as the end of the Fleming timeline.

[Bryce (003)]

In as much as I was 007 during my university years, one of my best friends was a comic book collector (still is) and, before the film in '89, a devout fan of Batman.

I was James Bond, he was Bruce Wayne. You should have seen the apartment we shared.

Anyway, as part of that, we had many a late night talking of our mutual role models and he explained to me, based on one side of the table, that BW was an eternal 33. I explained that Bond was an etrnal 37-38 from my take.

Yes, Fleming never nailed it down. We all seem happy with the notion that his birthday was/is November 11th, but I still stick by the math in Moonraker - strictly for myself - that Bond is 37 reflecting on the fact he had eight years to go until he would be taken off active duty at 45.

When Gardner picked up the pen, I just saw Bond as timelessly transplanted to 1981 and the same age as when we left him in TMWTGG. Mid 40's. i'll have to grab my copy, but I too am unclear as to his Double-O status.

I'm anxious for how this may or may not be addressed in DMC at any rate.

He's Bond. He's 007. He's 37 forever.

Well, that's what I think. Hell, it's what I believe.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I believe James Bond will be 007 in Devil May Care. Why not? Yes, he was transferred to the diplomatic section in You Only Live Twice, but that was only to be a temporary transfer so that he could do the assignment. When a brainwashed Bond returned to MI6 in The Man With The Golden Gun and attempted to assassinate his boss, M decided to send Bond out on one more dangerous mission to kill Francisco Scaramanga. If he failed, Bond got to die in the line of duty and not as a traitor, but if he fulfilled his mission then, according to M, he would have won back his spurs (to my memory that is quoting the book). And by getting his spurs back, he also got back his double-oh status.

As for the matter of Devil May Care being after The Man With The Golden Gun or Colonel Sun, I don't think IFP and/or Sebastian Faulks will disregard/conflict with Kingsley Amis' continuation work, I just think Colonel Sun will not be mentioned.

And as for the matter of the double-oh section's mandatory retirement age of 45, I agree with Scrambled Eggs. Faulks will either not mention it or he will say that the rule was scrapped.

[tristanjblythe]

I can't see him not being 007 (whatever happens in Golden Gun and I haven't read it for a while so can't remember). They will want to draw new fans into the literary Bond world with Devil May Care and to the entire world Bond is 007.

To scrap it would leave the casual readers confused and maybe disappointed(and I expect there will be a lot who have never picked up a bond novel - or only read a couple [perhaps GF or CR after the fim, etc]- picking this one up).

As for continuity I'm intrigued. So far it appears to be ignoring every thing apart from Fleming's work. Same to write off all the others (especially CS which fits in with Fleming's timeline) but as CS, Gardner and Benson are all out of print (in the UK at least) and not widely known (no film versions either) then it'll be easy for them to wipe away their memory.

Remember this is for Fleming's centenary not a anniversary of Bond. So I'm sure DMC will only take in Fleming's work as background.

Edited by tristanjblythe, 08 February 2008 - 08:27 AM.

[spynovelfan]

From Chapter 3 of THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN:

'The old black Phantom Rolls took him quietly and quickly northwards through Berkeley Square, across Oxford Street and via Wigmore Street, into Regent's Park. M. didn't look out at the passing scene. He sat stiffly in the back, his bowler hat squarely set on the middle of his head, and gazed unseeing at the back of the chauffeur's head with hooded, brooding eyes. For the hundredth time since he had left his office that morning, he assured himself that his decision was right. If James Bond could be straightened out - and M. was certain that that supreme neurologist, Sir James Molony, could bring it off - it would be ridiculous to re-assign him to normal staff duties in the Double-O Section. The past could be forgiven, but not forgotten - except with the passage of time. It would be most irksome for those in the know to have Bond moving about Headquarters as if nothing had happened. It would be doubly embarrassing for M. to have to face Bond across that desk. And James Bond, if aimed straight at a known target - M. put it in the language of battleships - was a supremely effective firing-piece. Well, the target was there and it desperately demanded destruction. Bond had accused M. of using him as a tool. Naturally. Every officer in the Service was a tool for one secret purpose or another. The problem on hand could only be solved by a killing. James Bond would not possess the Double-O prefix if he had not high talents, frequently proved, as a gunman. So be it! In exchange for the happenings of that morning, in expiation of them, Bond must prove himself at his old skills. If he succeeded, he would have regained his prevous status. If he failed, well, it would be a death for which he would be honoured. Win or lose, the plan would solve a vast array of problems. M. closed his mind once and for all on his decision. He got out of the car and went up in the lift to the eighth floor and along the corridor, smelling the smell of some unknown disinfectant more and more powerfully as he approached his office.'

So this would make it seem as though Bond does not have Double O status in this novel, but is he succeeds in his mission, M will give it back to him. He does succeed in killing Scaramanga, so I think we can presume that he would have it for the next mission. And despite M supposedly closing his mind to his decision once and for all, a couple of paragraphs later he asks Moneypenny: "How's 007? Did he come round all right?"

I'd be very surprised if Bond isn't 007 in DEVIL MAY CARE, but you never know - after all, Amis had M kidnapped. But he *can* have Bond be 007, I think, and be perfectly consistent with Fleming.

[zencat]

Excellent, spynovelfan. There's our answer.