60 replies to this topic

[Judo chop]

Judo Chop above again makes the assertion that a darker film (with strong writing and better direction) would have made the difference.

No I didn

[DR76]

Dalton brought realism to the relatively glamourous (Vienna, Bratislava) TLD and it worked very well. When he had to deal with that Miami Vice environment and all the violence in LTK it was too much.

I have to agree. I mean . . . LTK was a pretty good film. For a crime melodrama. I just don't think that Bond should be a crime melodrama.

[Unit II]

Dalton's "third" movie would have had to stay away from the 'late 80s cop movie' feel of Licence to Kill if it wanted a chance at success IMO.

I always thought The Living Daylights was a fine film, though.

[DaveBond21]

Dalton would have fitted nicely into Goldeneye, although I can't see anyone but Brosnan in that movie now. There was a TLD feel to much of it, and one can argue that the PTS was set in 1986. At least, at the time it was.

It would have been very interesting to see what direction a 1991 Bond movie would have taken. This was the year of Terminator II and so the public may have been ready for a full-blown Bond adventure. But would have that really suited Dalton's darker, more serious 007?

[BoogieBond]

[quote name='6Joker9' post='864239' date='25 April 2008 - 03:36']I

[Skudor]

[quote name='BoogieBond' post='865858' date='29 April 2008 - 20:15'][quote name='6Joker9' post='864239' date='25 April 2008 - 03:36']I

[Mr. Blofeld]

Am I insane to suggest that Dalton was in fact considered by Cubby but turned it down as he thought he was too young (or was that after OHMSS)?

You're remembering correctly, mon ami; it's the honest truth.

[BoogieBond]

I’m a little uncertain on what would have been the ultimate effect of the general public with a TSPWLM-type film, but I can think of another film that would be able to strike a better balance between Dalton’s portrayal and still be more faithful toward the original post’s suggestion of Moore’s TSWLM: GOLDFINGER.

Thats really interesting. Never thought of a TD Goldfinger or a TD Thunderball. But it could have worked.
I still think a OHMSS type adventure would have worked also. OHMSS had a sort of Villains lair, but its not as over the top as TSWLM's Atlantis. You still had Bond's demolition job of Piz Gloria and the explosions etc... just slightly toned down. I think this sort of movie would have suited Dalton. A TLD like adventure with Bondian action/elements and the odd gadget (I suppose ala TLD again with the keyring) where the balance was right and everything clicked. You could have had some great TD fights like the fight on entering Draco's. And some classic chases, ramp up the excitement and TD's 3rd could have been a blast.

I think Dalton would have done a fine job with OHMSS - he, or Connery (in his prime) or Craig could have hugely improved that movie.

Am I insane to suggest that Dalton was in fact considered by Cubby but turned it down as he thought he was too young (or was that after OHMSS)?

Looks like it. But I gotta say, I only envisage George when I think of OHMSS now, whatever his strengths and weaknesses were. But TD could have definitely done an adventure similar in tone and scope.

from the Wiki

Previously, Dalton had been considered for the role of James Bond four times. In 1968, he was asked to play Bond in On Her Majesty's Secret Service (1969) after Sean Connery decided that You Only Live Twice (1967) would be his last Bond film. Dalton turned the offer down, feeling he was too young for the role

Edited by BoogieBond, 29 April 2008 - 07:31 PM.

[Skudor]

Am I insane to suggest that Dalton was in fact considered by Cubby but turned it down as he thought he was too young (or was that after OHMSS)?

You're remembering correctly, mon ami; it's the honest truth.

Thank you kind sir - it's always nice to have one's Bondian recollection confirmed. Even when slightly tipsy.

[RazorBlade]

I have always felt the public would have warmed to Dalton after a 3rd Kick Bond movie.

Me too. When I first read the title of this thread I was like, "I hope not." But now that I know where you're coming from I, too, think the 3rd time could have been the charm.

[baerrtt]

I alluded to this earlier in the thread (and don't get me wrong I love Dalton's portrayal) but all this 'it would have been a success his 3rd film etc' stuff. Even with better marketing and a better film isn't there anybody willing to admit that Dalton not being liked by the general public at large (no matter how good or 'Fleming' his performances) could have potentially stopped any film (TSWLM like or not) from suceeding. Scapegoat or not people legitmately did not like his Bond with two films to show for it.

Brosnan had weak material (so did Moore for that matter) but they suceeded in the court of public opinion with their portrayals. Dalton, sadly alas, didn't. A TSWLM type of adventure is tonally wrong for what Dalton wanted to do (LTK was crafted for him) and given how uncomfortable he looks/looked during the more traditional bits of Bond 'business' in TLD an entire film pitched to bordeline comic/comic book sensibilities......

[BoogieBond]

I alluded to this earlier in the thread (and don't get me wrong I love Dalton's portrayal) but all this 'it would have been a success his 3rd film etc' stuff. Even with better marketing and a better film isn't there anybody willing to admit that Dalton not being liked by the general public at large (no matter how good or 'Fleming' his performances) could have potentially stopped any film (TSWLM like or not) from suceeding. Scapegoat or not people legitmately did not like his Bond with two films to show for it.

Brosnan had weak material (so did Moore for that matter) but they suceeded in the court of public opinion with their portrayals. Dalton, sadly alas, didn't. A TSWLM type of adventure is tonally wrong for what Dalton wanted to do (LTK was crafted for him) and given how uncomfortable he looks/looked during the more traditional bits of Bond 'business' in TLD an entire film pitched to bordeline comic/comic book sensibilities......

I've gotta agree with you here. But there is the one area where I find a similarity with SPY. TMWGG did not do well at the box office by most accounts. It took in at least $60 mill less than LALD , which was a smash.
Its incredible after a much less successful Bond, they normally come back with a smash, YOLT and OHMSS slight lull, then DAF back on track, TMWGG lull, Spy smash, AVTAK lull, TLD success and then LTK lull and GE huge successes and beyond all the way to CR.
So in a way EON were in the same boat, Do they be brave and go with a "Bigger" picture like SPY was, or regroup. With Spy, it went Big, and succeeded. But they knew it had a good chance after LALD was such a smash. It would have been a huge risk going that route again. TLD was successful and bucked the downward gross trend from FYEO to AVTAK, but it wasn't the smash LALD was. And as you pointed out, TD would have been more uncomfortable with that comic type of film as opposed to say Pierce, who can do light comedy more effectively.
You've persuaded me. The only nag in the back of my mind was if it was 1991 and They went back to a TLD type of adventure(With OHMSS type epic scope and action/fights and girls). It could have bucked the trend and got more money, would TD back out anyway, cos he would see it as a backward step(Back to the formula) after a more serious step in terms of LTK. I think so, and agree with you.

Edited by BoogieBond, 02 May 2008 - 07:46 PM.

[dodge]

I alluded to this earlier in the thread (and don't get me wrong I love Dalton's portrayal) but all this 'it would have been a success his 3rd film etc' stuff. Even with better marketing and a better film isn't there anybody willing to admit that Dalton not being liked by the general public at large (no matter how good or 'Fleming' his performances) could have potentially stopped any film (TSWLM like or not) from suceeding. Scapegoat or not people legitmately did not like his Bond with two films to show for it.

Brosnan had weak material (so did Moore for that matter) but they suceeded in the court of public opinion with their portrayals. Dalton, sadly alas, didn't. A TSWLM type of adventure is tonally wrong for what Dalton wanted to do (LTK was crafted for him) and given how uncomfortable he looks/looked during the more traditional bits of Bond 'business' in TLD an entire film pitched to bordeline comic/comic book sensibilities......

I've gotta agree with you here. But there is the one area where I find a similarity with SPY. TMWGG did not do well at the box office by most accounts. It took in at least $60 mill less than LALD , which was a smash.
Its incredible after a much less successful Bond, they normally come back with a smash, YOLT and OHMSS slight lull, then DAF back on track, TMWGG lull, Spy smash, AVTAK lull, TLD success and then LTK lull and GE huge successes and beyond all the way to CR.
So in a way EON were in the same boat, Do they be brave and go with a "Bigger" picture like SPY was, or regroup. With Spy, it went Big, and succeeded. But they knew it had a good chance after LALD was such a smash. It would have been a huge risk going that route again. TLD was successful and bucked the downward gross trend from FYEO to AVTAK, but it wasn't the smash LALD was. And as you pointed out, TD would have been more uncomfortable with that comic type of film as opposed to say Pierce, who can do light comedy more effectively.
You've persuaded me. The only nag in the back of my mind was if it was 1991 and They went back to a TLD type of adventure(With OHMSS type epic scope and action/fights and girls). It could have bucked the trend and got more money, would TD back out anyway, cos he would see it as a backward step(Back to the formula) after a more serious step in terms of LTK. I think so, and agree with you.

Nice take, Boogie. And thank you for the insights.

[vednam]

I think the "Spy" comparison, slightly took me off balance. But I now see the comparision for what it is.
If Tim had a third film where they upped the beautiful locations and women, created original and thrilling stunts, that were the best in the Bond series and perhaps some allies that were genuinely humorous, could it have been the 3rd film that was successful.

What may not have worked is the other elements of Spy, sight gags, metal toothed villains, villains Lairs, shark pools, magnets, underwater cars, quips (e.g. All those feathers and he still can't fly)

I love Spy, but Daltons 3rd would have been completely different, the humour elements would have been toned down and suited to TD. The lighter touch would not have been present, and that was part of the success of Spy. If I had to compare his 3rd to a film in the canon, I can only think of a OHMSS like adventure, where the action is the best, the plot is credible and the gadgets are pretty much absent, doesn't stop a thrilling car chase, or fantastic fights though. And Bond would have more girls, but would ultimately fall for one at the end. More locations, and EON would find plenty of clever ways for TD to get out of dangerous situations using his wits. TD taking on 2/3 men in hand to hand combat in a gritty style in a spectacular long fight, walking away from the fight with blood and bruises to show for it, but showing what a dangerous lethal man the TD 007 was.

If the action was outstanding, and it had been a real fast moving, globe trotting adventure and also with several "Stand Out" moments that would be remembered, then I can see it being successful, but not sure if it would have been to Spy's proportions. Echoing baerrtt's comments, wasn't LALD a huge success(taking inflation into account) ? TLD was successful, but was it as successful as LALD(inflation adjusted). In some ways I guess EON knew with LALD they could get the audience back if they went with the fantasy elements etc.. not sure they would be so sure with a 3rd Dalton, but it would have been a blast if it would have happened

I think you understand where I am coming from. I'm not suggesting a comic-book like film for Dalton, but a bigger, badder version of what we had already seen from him, in a sense.

A bigger budget (I think TSWLM had twice the budget of TMWTGG, for instance), more memorable bond girls, cutting-edge stunts, charismatic villains, and exotic locations.

Part of what made LTK bland to many people, IMO, was the "miami vice/cop movie" feel that people in this thread have alluded to, the lack of globe-trotting, and the overall "cheap" look and feel it had.

It seems like after TMWTGG's relative failure, Cubby decided to just go all out to make a truly memorable bond film, and it established Roger Moore. I feel like something similar could have worked for Dalton.

[BoogieBond]

Thanks Dodge and Vednam for the kind words.

Yes, though the nag in the back of my head says Dalton could have done a 3rd (He did Flash Gordon, Rocketeer and Hot Fuzz, more comedic films) He could not have done the same with JB unless it was semi serious in the style of OHMSS/TLD, he wouldn't have hung around otherwise as it would have been a backward step. Alas

Edited by BoogieBond, 06 May 2008 - 06:01 PM.

[Harry Fawkes]

Nah, I say he could have had his TSWLM. And he would have been great too.

[sthgilyadgnivileht]

I'm not sure any Bond film would have made it big at the box office in the early 90's. Cinema had moved away from the suited hero at that time. The legal hiatus that blocked production really worked for the series in that by the time Goldeneye was released audiences were ready to embrace all things Bond again.

However I don't believe Dalton would have made a TSWLM kind of picture. His input and interest came from what he could contribute as an actor in a character driven Bond movie. Wouldn't surprise me If this was the real reason he quit the series, as he did not see himself playing Bond in the direction the producers ultimately took things with Goldeneye.

[Publius]

Tomorrow Never Dies as the basis. Hong Kong, its transition from British to Chinese control, and nuclear weapons feature prominently. Anthony Hopkins as Carver, less like Rupert Murdoch and more like the literary Hugo Drax. Timothy Dalton as Bond. Surrender as the title song.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Keeps the larger-than-life aspect without sacrificing the harder edge of Dalton's interpretation.

[The Richmond Spy]

Tim deserved a third film and I believe it would've been great. Not too sure it would've excelled financially or revived the series the same way GE did, but maybe it wouldn't need to without a 6 year gap. Sigh...

[tdalton]

Tomorrow Never Dies as the basis. Hong Kong, its transition from British to Chinese control, and nuclear weapons feature prominently. Anthony Hopkins as Carver, less like Rupert Murdoch and more like the literary Hugo Drax. Timothy Dalton as Bond. Surrender as the title song.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Keeps the larger-than-life aspect without sacrificing the harder edge of Dalton's interpretation.

Sounds like a great idea for a film to me.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Tomorrow Never Dies as the basis. Hong Kong, its transition from British to Chinese control, and nuclear weapons feature prominently. Anthony Hopkins as Carver, less like Rupert Murdoch and more like the literary Hugo Drax. Timothy Dalton as Bond. Surrender as the title song.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. Keeps the larger-than-life aspect without sacrificing the harder edge of Dalton's interpretation.

Sounds like a great idea for a film to me.

Me too.

It will forever be a missed opportunity that the Bond series never used the plot idea of the United Kingdom returning the Hong Kong colony to China in 1997 like in Raymond Benson's "Zero Minus 10" or in Bond 18's original script-

http://www.universal...ripts/tnd.shtml

[CasinoKiller]

Personally, what I really think would have suited Dalton is a serious espionage drama in the vein of From Russia with Love. They could have toned done the action and violence a bit but highlighted the intrigue and thriller element of the Bond films. There could have been a small amount of dry humour, a well-crafted plot worthy of Flemming, and maybe a nice psychopathic villain/henchman like Red Grant who would play a cat and mouse game with Bond through most of the movie. Ultimately, you have to understand that Dalton was not Roger Moore or Sean Connery and he did portray a darker and edgier version of the character, one which was in many ways closer to the darker world-weary Bond of Fleming's later books.

[Tybre]

Personally, what I really think would have suited Dalton is a serious espionage drama in the vein of From Russia with Love. They could have toned done the action and violence a bit but highlighted the intrigue and thriller element of the Bond films. There could have been a small amount of dry humour, a well-crafted plot worthy of Flemming, and maybe a nice psychopathic villain/henchman like Red Grant who would play a cat and mouse game with Bond through most of the movie. Ultimately, you have to understand that Dalton was not Roger Moore or Sean Connery and he did portray a darker and edgier version of the character, one which was in many ways closer to the darker world-weary Bond of Fleming's later books.

Certainly. In fact that's why I love his portrayal. But one also has to remember that by the late 1980s, after 12 years of Roger Moore, audiences did not want a Dr No or From Russia With Love scenario, which stuck fairly near to the Fleming and just made it a bit more playful for cinematic purposes. People wanted big, exciting, explosive adventure. Shame in a way. Had Dalton been the right age in the 1960s, I imagine he'd probably have stuck around for quite a fair deal of time and been much better received.

[DR76]

Are you claiming that none of Dalton's films were as popular as THE SPY WHO LOVED ME? Or are you claiming that neither of his films were as good?

If you're claiming the former, then I would have to say that I cannot answer your question. If you're claiming the latter, I have to DISAGREE. One, I think that LICENSE TO KILL was just as good as THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. I certainly don't view TSWLM as Moore's best film. And as for THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, I would personally rate that movie a lot higher than THE SPY WHO LOVED ME. It's one of my top five Bond films.

[Stephen Spotswood]

The kind of plot lines I always saw for Dalton was one set in a world of espionage where you never knew who your friends or enemies were.

I pictured things like Bond in his naval uniform, acting as a commander in charge of security, where the British navy was helping the US Navy set up tsunami/hurricane detectors out at sea, but in reality were arming the sea bed in violation of the Sea Bed Arms Control Treaty. Commander Bond gradually figures out what's going on, and then has to determine if it's a rogue operation or a policy operation, and even in the case of the latter what he's willing and can do about it.

Death could come literally from turning into the wrong hallway at the wrong time.

Edited by Stephen Spotswood, 28 September 2009 - 02:30 AM.

[tdalton]

Shame in a way. Had Dalton been the right age in the 1960s, I imagine he'd probably have stuck around for quite a fair deal of time and been much better received.

It would have been amazing to see Dalton in those early films. As great and iconic as Connery was, I can't help but wonder how long Dalton would have stayed in the role, and how popular he would have been, had his interpretation of the role been brought to the more grounded films in the series such as Dr. No and From Russia With Love, which were very successful in their own rite before Goldfinger began the Bond-mania and the era of the more over-the-top Bond picture.

[ChristopherZ22]

What would the movie have been like? What overall feel would it have?

Actually, we do know the answer to this. They were working on a story involving Bond going up against killer robots. They did away with the idea when the lawsuits started.

[Royal Dalton]

I've read the story outline for that one. It didn't really feature killer robots, as such. The villain was using advanced industrial robots to cause nuclear meltdowns and the like.

There was also a Fembot-style security robot called Nan. Which was a bit far out. But she was only revealed as a robot at the end of the film and that could easily have been changed.

Overall, I think it could have been a good film if they'd managed to make it. Of course, a lot of it's been culled for subsequent films. Each of the Brosnan films pinched at least one idea from it.

I expect future films will borrow material from it, as well. There's one scene where Bond is being tortured with a taser, for example. I could easily see that turning up in one of Craig's films.

[Judo chop]

Oooooh. Laser torture.

*chills*

[plankattack]

Oooooh. Laser torture.

*chills*

Actually, it's "taser lorture"........