29 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

A gem from manfromjapan:

The Saint, Roger Moore, and James Bond

Paul Rowlands shows there is more linking "The Saint" with James Bond than its star.

[Blofeld's Cat]

BRAVO, manfromjapan.

A very nicely researched and collated article.

It's also interesting to note that episode 3.21 "Sibao" contains an extra bit of Live and Let Die related trivia. On the back of Umbrella's The Saint boxset #4 the description of the ep reads as follows...

HAITI – The mysteries of voodoo magic confront THE SAINT when he encounters a beautiful girl with mystic powers.

And, on the inside cover of DVD #13 of that boxset there is a particular tidbit about the episode...

The voodoo numbers are staged and danced by Briscoe Holder.

It's actually Boscoe Holder and, yep, was the older brother of Geoffrey Holder.

[avl]

Doesn't tell us much about how a Saint era Moore Bond would have differed form the Moore we know and love though. More about the trivia of which actors happened to be in the Saint and then Bond than discovering how Moore could have played the role "if he had taken it seriously". Disappointing read for me.

[Spurrier]

I enjoyed the read. I don't like though the reference to RM not taking the role seriously. That implies that he did not care about his performance nor the audience. I feel fairly certain that's not what the author meant.

I think if we want to see what a "serious" 12-year Moore "take" on James Bond would have looked like, we simply need to refer to FYEO.

[manfromjapan]

As ever, thanks for the feedback!!

Blofeld's Cat - I am happy you enjoyed the article. It was indeed Geoffrey Holder's brother!!

avi - My intention for the article was to reveal and highlight the many links between the Saint series and 007. That's why the very first sentence starts off on that foot. And that's why I don't go into detail on the way Moore's Templar is different from his Bond. But I think my sentence - 'chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, tough as nails, womanising ex-criminal with quick wits and a good punch' - does at least give a strong idea. Perhaps the tagline is misleading... I am sorry you were disappointed! LOL.

Spurrier - I think Roger took the role as seriously as he could. But when I said he took it less seriously than The Saint, I think it's a fair assessment since Roger himself said he found the character ridiculous and that's why he couldn't take it seriously. I was referring to his own opinion of the character, and his own approach. I agree his performance in FYEO is excellent and quite serious, and there are quite a few great dramatic moments in his Bond films. But I think the script for FYEO dictated a more serious approach, and remember he had to be talked into kicking Locque's car off the cliff. I love Roger's portrayal of 007, hence all the money forked out to buy the Saint box sets, but I was honestly struck by how tough, dark and physically imposing his Saint was compared to his 007.

[Qwerty]

Nicely researched, manfromjapan. I knew there were alot of future Bond film actors in the series, but not quite that many.

[Spurrier]

As ever, thanks for the feedback!!

Blofeld's Cat - I am happy you enjoyed the article. It was indeed Geoffrey Holder's brother!!

avi - My intention for the article was to reveal and highlight the many links between the Saint series and 007. That's why the very first sentence starts off on that foot. And that's why I don't go into detail on the way Moore's Templar is different from his Bond. But I think my sentence - 'chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, tough as nails, womanising ex-criminal with quick wits and a good punch' - does at least give a strong idea. Perhaps the tagline is misleading... I am sorry you were disappointed! LOL.

Spurrier - I think Roger took the role as seriously as he could. But when I said he took it less seriously than The Saint, I think it's a fair assessment since Roger himself said he found the character ridiculous and that's why he couldn't take it seriously. I was referring to his own opinion of the character, and his own approach. I agree his performance in FYEO is excellent and quite serious, and there are quite a few great dramatic moments in his Bond films. But I think the script for FYEO dictated a more serious approach, and remember he had to be talked into kicking Locque's car off the cliff. I love Roger's portrayal of 007, hence all the money forked out to buy the Saint box sets, but I was honestly struck by how tough, dark and physically imposing his Saint was compared to his 007.

manfromjapan, you did an excellent job. Thanks.

[TheSaint]

ManfromJapan, you forgot Jeanne Roland, who played Sibao in the Saint episode of the same name, played one of Tiger's girls in YOLT, and Edward DeSouza, who played Beau Ellington in "The Chequered Flag", was Sheikh Hosein in TSWLM. I think one can attribute so many actors being in both The Saint and the Bond films to the incestuousness of the British tv/film industry.

As for Fleming wanting Roger to play 007, Cubby was mistaken. As Doublenought can attest, Fleming was not exactly a voracious watcher of tv so, the odds of him catching Roger in an episode of "Ivanhoe" or "Maverick" are slim and none.

Otherwise, a good job.

[manfromjapan]

ManfromJapan, you forgot Jeanne Roland, who played Sibao in the Saint episode of the same name, played one of Tiger's girls in YOLT, and Edward DeSouza, who played Beau Ellington in "The Chequered Flag", was Sheikh Hosein in TSWLM. I think one can attribute so many actors being in both The Saint and the Bond films to the incestuousness of the British tv/film industry.

As for Fleming wanting Roger to play 007, Cubby was mistaken. As Doublenought can attest, Fleming was not exactly a voracious watcher of tv so, the odds of him catching Roger in an episode of "Ivanhoe" or "Maverick" are slim and none.

Otherwise, a good job.

Thanks Saint!! I seem to have forgotten to take note of De Souza - I remember noticing himl!! But Jeanne Roland definitely slipped through the net.

Glad a Saint fan enjoyed it. If you spot any other omissions LMK!!

[avl]

avi - My intention for the article was to reveal and highlight the many links between the Saint series and 007. That's why the very first sentence starts off on that foot. And that's why I don't go into detail on the way Moore's Templar is different from his Bond. But I think my sentence - 'chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, tough as nails, womanising ex-criminal with quick wits and a good punch' - does at least give a strong idea. Perhaps the tagline is misleading... I am sorry you were disappointed! LOL.

Sorry about that - I was a little grouchy last night . I just wanted more along those lines - but good article! I always liked Ogilvy so I'm looking forward to your views on Return of the Saint in due course!

[David_M]

But when I said he took it less seriously than The Saint, I think it's a fair assessment since Roger himself said he found the character ridiculous and that's why he couldn't take it seriously.

Fair enough, but I've seen interviews where he's said much the same about Simon Templar: that he was too much a boy scout to be believable, that he was a meddlesome busybody and an impossible hero, and so on.

Personally I found Roger's Templar to be more "serious" than his Bond, yes; more passionate about causes, more likely to show righteous indignation and anger, more impatient with villains. But at the same time he was less likely to, say, shoot an unarmed man four times as Bond does Stromberg, or casually toss a man to his death after getting the information he wants.

My take is that Templar (an extremely dangerous fellow in the books) had already been blunted enough by the need to placate TV censors, and Roger was savvy enough to realize what was needed was more gravity and seriousness to add weight to the proceedings. On the other hand, in Bond we have a character who in the wrong hands might easily come off as ruthless, callow and even despicable, so Roger added a bit of levity.

But maybe that's just me.

[jaguar007]

Great article.
One additional note is that in the episode "The Noble Sportsman" Lord Yearley (Anthony Quayle) drives an Aston Martin DB5 that happens to have the license plate BMT 216A

[Ian Dickerson]

But I think my sentence - 'chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, tough as nails, womanising ex-criminal with quick wits and a good punch'

I think you and I must have seen different shows then. For the Simon Templar that I've seen portrayed by Roger Moore was never portrayed as a heavy drinker or an ex-criminal. And my dictionary defines a chain-smoker as someone who smokes non-stop. Granted Saint Roger smoked a lot but there were times when he didn't smoke.

Ian

[David_M]

I wouldn't say he did much "womanising," either. Sure a lot of pretty girls end up in his adventures (at least one a show! :-)), but things remain decidedly chaste with the vast majority of them, and I don't remember things ever progressing beyond the occasional kiss.

In fact, it can be jarring watching Roger act so much the gentleman as Templar, when we're used to his "dirty old man" spin on Bond. I remember when I first saw the titles for Ogilvy's "Return of the Saint," where the stick man's halo (rather suggestively) falls to the floor to be joined by the girl's boa, I thought, "Waitaminnit! Simon Templar doesn't have casual sex!"

[Ian Dickerson]

when we're used to his "dirty old man" spin on Bond. I remember when I first saw the titles for Ogilvy's "Return of the Saint," where the stick man's halo (rather suggestively) falls to the floor to be joined by the girl's boa, I thought, "Waitaminnit! Simon Templar doesn't have casual sex!"

Which is half the fun of this sort of discussion because according to Leslie Charteris he most definitely did!

Ian

[David_M]

Yes, but Templar's a very different beast in the books, isn't he? I just meant that my mental image of the Saint, at that young age, was almost entirely informed by Roger's portrayal. And while he may have been "tougher" as the Saint than as Bond, Roger's Templar was a boy scout compared to his literary counterpart (who, I feel, could have made mincemeat of 007).

It's interesting that in the (ugh!) Val Kilmer film, Templar more than once goes out of his way not to kill or even shoot enemies when he has the chance, and it'd be the best plan. I have to assume that's because the screenwriters, like me, were used to Roger's version, who was pretty bloodless and didn't engage in a lot of gunplay. Whereas Charteris' version would hardly have balked at dispatching baddies. Up close and with a knife if need be.

[spynovelfan]

Fun article - I enjoyed it.

Whereas Charteris' version would hardly have balked at dispatching baddies. Up close and with a knife if need be.

The controversial knife. Colin Watson discussed this in SNOBBERY WITH VIOLENCE, and concluded that Charteris made Templar 'less homicidal' as the series progressed, something he attributed indirectly to Moore's portrayal.

[manfromjapan]

But I think my sentence - 'chain-smoking, heavy-drinking, tough as nails, womanising ex-criminal with quick wits and a good punch'

I think you and I must have seen different shows then. For the Simon Templar that I've seen portrayed by Roger Moore was never portrayed as a heavy drinker or an ex-criminal. And my dictionary defines a chain-smoker as someone who smokes non-stop. Granted Saint Roger smoked a lot but there were times when he didn't smoke.

Ian

It would depend on what you consider a heavy drinker. In the 71 episodes I watched in quick succession, Templar seemed to use every opportunity to drink hard liquor. That would constitute heavy drinking to me. The same goes with the smoking. I would agree that, ok, he isn't TECHNICALLY a chain-smoker, but the point I was trying to make was that he smokes a hell of a lot, especially compared to his Bond. But I'm sure if he could fight and run and smoke and drink at the same time, he would!!!
'

[manfromjapan]

Jaguar007 and The Saint, many thanks for your additional information. I have added the info into my article and credited you guys at the foot of the article. (Many thanks to Mr Asterix for inputting the info.)

[ACE]

Fantastic stuff, mfj

[MarkA]

I was honestly struck by how tough, dark and physically imposing his Saint was compared to his 007

As many people know because of him not taking the role seriously Roger Moore is my least favourite Bond. Plus I also think by at least MOONRAKER he was already too old. But I have fond memories of The Saint, and watching them again I think Moore was superb in them. The thing that really strikes me is how good he is in the fistfights. They become real scraps. I always thought his Bond fights were really bad. Now is that down to the choreography, Moore being too old, or he just didn't care. Great article though.

[TheSaint]

I always thought his Bond fights were really bad. Now is that down to the choreography, Moore being too old, or he just didn't care. Great article though.

I don't think you can attribute the "bad" fight scenes Roger had as Bond to his age or his just not caring. Roger is a true professional. They may not be as good as the fight scenes in The Saint but they're not bad, either.

[MarkA]

I don't think you can attribute the "bad" fight scenes Roger had as Bond to his age or his just not caring. Roger is a true professional. They may not be as good as the fight scenes in The Saint but they're not bad, either.

Compared to the fights in FRWL, THUNDERBALL, OHMSS etc Moore's fights were woeful. Yet in The Saint he shows a grace and physicality that is entirely lacking in his interpretation of Bond.

[David_M]

I don't know, I think Roger's fight with Chang in MR and with Sandor in TSWLM were quite well done. Overall, though, and including those two, there's a "stagey," balletic quality to Roger's fight scenes as Bond that almost always reminds me that these are, in the end, carefully choreographed exercises. In contrast, Connery's fights were always shot and performed in such a way that they seemed spontaneous and thus more suspenseful.

Part of the problem is that so many of Roger's fights are shot from a few feet away, while with Connery's fights it sometimes seemed like a free-for-all that included the cameraman! That closeness adds a visceral quality that's important, I think.

Some of Roger's fights in the Saint could also come off as a bit fakey, but when he was good he was amazing. I always think of the one in "The Benevolent Burglary," where he flips a guy over on his head against a hotel door, then lifts him by the feet and bangs his head on the floor! You go, Rog!

[TheSaint]

I always think of the one in "The Benevolent Burglary," where he flips a guy over on his head against a hotel door, then lifts him by the feet and bangs his head on the floor! You go, Rog!

That's one of my fave Saint fight scenes!

[scaramunga]

Love The Saint! Great article on a lot of the James Bond connections!

[manfromjapan]

Love The Saint! Great article on a lot of the James Bond connections!

Thanks a lot! Watch out for the follow-up article on the colour series. It will be up on the site once I have finished watching all the episodes. A similar article on The Persuaders should be up soon.

[jaguar007]

One problem I have with some of Moore's fight scenes in his Bond films is that all too often you can clearly see when it is a stuntman and not Moore.

[TheSaint]

One problem I have with some of Moore's fight scenes in his Bond films is that all too often you can clearly see when it is a stuntman and not Moore.

As opposed to Sean's fight scenes which are all Sean-not. The fights with OddJob, Col.Boutier, and Hans are 1/2 Sean, 1/2 stuntman.

[jaguar007]

One problem I have with some of Moore's fight scenes in his Bond films is that all too often you can clearly see when it is a stuntman and not Moore.

As opposed to Sean's fight scenes which are all Sean-not. The fights with OddJob, Col.Boutier, and Hans are 1/2 Sean, 1/2 stuntman.

All the actors use stunt people, in the scenes with Connery you refer to, I cannot clearly tell that it is not COnnery. In fight scenes in TSWLM (pyramid), AVTAK (house & Paris) you can clearly see that it is not Moore. That is more of a fault with the editor than it is with Moore.

I'm not trying to bash Moore at all, you know I am a big fan of Roger (especially as The Saint) but the fight scenes in the Connery films do look more realistic. part of it is natural instinct. You know that Connery and Daniel Craig probably have been in several real life fights in their youth where Roger probably has not (nor has Brosnan)- that real life experince shows up on the screen. According to Cubby in his autobiography, Sean Connery and Robert Shaw did the entire fight scene themselves, no stuntmen. IMO that is the best fight scene in the entire series with fights from CR being close behind. You know Roger probably used humor to get himself out of fights growning up.

This does not mean Moore's fights look bad, at least he looks like he uses his weight to throw a punch unlike Brosnan.