41 replies to this topic

[sharpshooter]

Definately. Good list there stamper.

[Royal Dalton]

Quite right, Stamper.

[HH007]

Personally, I agree with the person who said that 24 seemed to be an influence. I saw much more of 24 in CR than I did of any of the Bourne films. And Jack Bauer also broke into foreign embassies a couple of times, he has been arrested while terrorists get away, he's looked himself in the mirror... so who's to say who is copying who?

In fact, watching the opening restroom fight in CR, I actually thought that was a lift from True Lies, where Arnold has a bloody, gritty fight with a couple of guys. Anyone else think that?

[JP007]

Stamper, you

[marktmurphy]

I suppose that if one was to say that if anyone thinks that CR had no closer inspiration from Bourne, they're an idiot; you might feel a bit miffed? If you do, I'd have to say: don't call people idiots.

Please spare me this politically correct nonsense.

'Politically correct'? What on Earth are you on about? How am I being politically correct here? Which minority am I patronising?

The "CR = Bond reBourne" diatribe was the refrain of many anti-Craig/anti-reboot knee-jerk reactionaries. I've never seen any reasoning behind that argument -- and we had A LOT of threads making that argument -- and it's no different here. (Note: I'm not categorizing sam29 as one of those people. His thread title and opening post may be inflammatory, but he's not spewing venom.) I'm just harsh about the topic whenever it rears its ugly head and, once again, has no support. Pardon me if that offends you, but I'm not going to act differently, and you're free to be similarly critical of me for whatever reason.

No; I'm not- because I try to be polite unless faced with impoliteness and because this forum has a rule about personal insults.

Yes, there are similarities between CR and Bourne, and I even acknowledged them in my previous post (and numerous times elsewhere). But aside from the stairwell fight and Bond washing up in the bathroom, I don't see anything that is more Bourne than Bond.

The PTS? Film noir and Connery "you've had your six" or Dalton. African rundown? Free running Purvis or Wade had seen somewhere (and I think it wasn't even a movie). Bahamas? Thunderball Connery. Miami airport? Brosnan era action sequence. Train ride? Brosnan era "girl power" with sharper writing. Card game? I think the only precedent is in the novel; they just fleshed it out. Bond getting poisoned? An update on the novel's cane-wielding henchman, and use of the obligatory gadget. Torture scene? It's in the novel and integral to the story. Bond's recovery/falling in love with Vesper? Novel, and OHMSS. Venice? A more "cinematic" way for Vesper to die and the movie to end.

I think you've missed the point- you're looking at details, and whereas Bourne has influenced a few of the deatils (fights, a bit of shaky cam) it has also clearly influenced the tone and approach of the film, together with it's hard hitting nature. I'm not saying that's the only place which that approach originated with, but what they ended up with was a very Fleming twist on the Bourne theme. Your post implies that any similarity to Bourne was coincidental and as much owing to FRWL etc., and it clearly isn't.

Besides, being one of several factors that leads to a change is very different from being the only factor, let alone being "even mostly" carbon copied.

What does 'even mostly' mean?

[Publius]

Bourne washes his bloody hands in the sink -- Bond washes his bloody hands in the sink
Bourne look at his bloody face in the mirror -- Bond look at his bloody face in the mirror

I'll easily give you those two, although it also reminds me of things Bond does in the novels (taking cold showers and reflecting on things).

Bourne sees his girl friend die underwater -- Bond sees his girl friend die underwater

...I can see what you mean, but I really wonder how much of a lift that one was. I don't see what the rationale would be behind it, so I'd write it off to one of the writers being lazy or "accidentally" copying it (probably had seen it some time ago and unknowingly included this similar scene). Besides, there is Bond precedent for things like that taking place underwater: the end of TND, for example.

And I guess all this could be said for Ultimatum ripping off CR, but I have a feeling you and I will have our same positions on that.

Bourne breaks in an embassy, kicking guards left and right and makes his escape --
Bond breaks in an embassy, kicking guards left and right and makes his escape

I think that one's a stretch. Bond's violated international law and beat/shot up buildings full of people before.

Bourne assassin get mistaken for a killer and is apprehended by the police while bourne escape --
Bond get mistaken for a terrorist and is apprehended by the police while the real terrorist escape

Classic action movie gimmick. And way too brief to even matter, anyway.

Do you want me to continue ? I could list similarities between CR and Bourne 1 &2 all night long, scene after scene, shot after shot, angle after angle. During the first chase, all Bond actions are like Bourne. He notices things, and used them while still running. etc etc etc

I would say about 50 % of CR set pieces minimum are ALL copied onto the first two Bourne movies. The 50% which are not Fleming that is. There are so numerous action set pieces, situations, shots, that are similar, that it's virtual a game of the (00) 7 errors. I'm not even going into that whole computer team that suddenly appears in MI5 headquarters etc

I'm not talking about action that would be similar from one movie to another, I'm speaking REAL, OBVIOUS, LIFTS from the Bourne series. BOND IS BOURNED ! And the better for it. Bond have the edge, because we all love the character. But he is, obviously, totally, Bourne influenced.

Sorry, I just don't see it as much as you do. I do see a Bourne influence, but I also see a Batman Begins influence, a Die Hard influence, and a bunch of other action movie influences. And, of course, Bond himself. Maybe it's because I never found Bourne all that fresh or original or whatever. The movies are great fun, but while nowhere near as generic as, say, Bond movies of the last 20 or so years, I still find them fairly basic and traditional.

'Politically correct'? What on Earth are you on about? How am I being politically correct here? Which minority am I patronising?

Eh, it's the insistence on not offending people, which (I believe) results in conversations where nastiness clearly lurks and festers under the surface -- hell, I think you see a lot of that even in a mostly civil discussion forum like this. Don't like it, that's all.

No; I'm not- because I try to be polite unless faced with impoliteness and because this forum has a rule about personal insults.

Gimme a break. It was one off-hand comment in a lengthy post in a series of hundreds of posts I've made. Don't see the big deal. And the comment was clearly (to me, at least) made generally. The OP seemed like it could have been exaggerating, but it was too vague to be sure. And maybe I'm underestimating how offesive the word "idiot" is. Foolish and intellectually lazy would be a better description of how I view the people I was referencing, anyway. And yes, possibly stupid...

I think you've missed the point- you're looking at details, and whereas Bourne has influenced a few of the deatils (fights, a bit of shaky cam) it has also clearly influenced the tone and approach of the film, together with it's hard hitting nature. I'm not saying that's the only place which that approach originated with, but what they ended up with was a very Fleming twist on the Bourne theme. Your post implies that any similarity to Bourne was coincidental and as much owing to FRWL etc., and it clearly isn't.

I simply don't see it as substantially as you (and apparently others) do. I have said there were moments, but I think Campbell and company were basically doing their own thing. I cited those details because I think (and this may be a careless presumption, since I don't know "the business", let alone how EON and friends operate) P&W would be far more likely to take pages from Bourne, and they were the detail guys.

Campbell and the rest, meanwhile, filmed a two-and-a-half-hour movie, of which shaky cams and the other Bourne elements seemed more like they were sprinkled throughout rather than providing any consistent basis for the whole thing. Like I said, I saw more of other Bond films like Thunderball, OHMSS, and LTK, with a generic Brosnan-ish feel added for good measure (and probably in many ways unintentionally).

What does 'even mostly' mean?

Mostly or entirely.

[DaveBond21]

Interesting discussion.

I don't like the idea of too much shaky camera work in Bond movies, but I recognise the need for a great car chase along the lines of the one in the Bourne Idendity.

Obviously Bourne is influenced by Bond, but some things will go in the other direction too.

[Publius]

Interesting discussion.

I don't like the idea of too much shaky camera work in Bond movies, but I recognise the need for a great car chase along the lines of the one in the Bourne Idendity.

Obviously Bourne is influenced by Bond, but some things will go in the other direction too.

I pointed this out above, but I think the same case that can be made for Bourne 1&2 influencing CR could be made for CR influencing Ultimatum. Hell, maybe more, especially considering how close the latter two were released. I'll have to see it again to refresh my memory on some of the specifics, but I definitely saw them while watching it. However, it's a feeling I've had before (yes, including while watching CR) so many times that I think there's more to it than copying, even if there is undoubtable influencing taking place. I think a lot of it has to do with action movies as a whole basically repeating themselves in most ways. And I say that as a huge fan of the genre.

[stamper]

There's a 24 influence in there too also of course, as well as the opening which is under True Lies influence. But you have to take it this last one as a statement : the action films golden age ended with True Lies, and all the Brosnan movies were movies that should actually have been made in the eighties, there was nothing in them regarding action, that you would not have seen between 84 and 94.

the Bourne books were a continuation of Fleming Bond, adjusted to the seventies. (ie not the character, but the books basically start where YOLT ended, with an amnesic character) so it's good that Bond takes from the movie series in return.

I do agree I see CR influence in Ultimatum too ! It's the way things goes !

[JWM Tanner]

I can't see how people tie connections between Bond and Bourne. Bond is a cultural icon and almost a cult. Bourne is just a passing phase.

So true!
You just can`t make a connection between Bond and Bourne.
Bourne is typical American.
Bond is British.

But i didn`t saw any Bourne movies at all.
It just a thought.

[007Bond]

CR did not copy Bourne, Casino Royale copied a series of books written well before Bourne by and author named Ian Fleming. Perhaps the Bond books influenced Bourne so it was more of a case of Bourne copying Bond than Bond copying Bourne.

I like your analyze !

[stamper]

If you read that Bond Book by John Cork (Bond legacy), he goes one page after page about how the series succeeds, because it adapts to time and trends, morphing as it goes.

When Blaxploitation was all the rage, we got Live and Let Die, a movie designed to appeal to the audience that was into what was all the rage then, with Bond as the cherry on the cake.

So I don't see how surprising it is that Bond is now Bourned. I mean, last time I looked with Brosnan, he was Matrixed. That's the Bond series. Hell, they even cannibalised themselves with enjoyable turds like TSWLM, that's a fact of the series.

The Bond series is the Transformers of the film franchises. I just hope they don't end up being Transformerised next.