29 replies to this topic

[tim partridge]

This has probably been discussed to death here, but thought I'd vent anyway.

It's so weird that Bond of 1987 was so decidedly monogomous in wake of the AIDS scare, probably the first time the screen incarnation of 007 had to pander to poltical correctness. However, he still had his cigarettes and boy, did THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS still revert to dated, sexist humour.

Unfortunately the sexist humour I refer to wasn't merely a follow on from previous Bond films, it was something that wasn't really ever part of the franchise! Even at Roger Moore's extreme worst, he looked five inches tall by way of Lois Chile's unforgettable glare in MOONRAKER ("A woman?" "Your observations do you little credit Mr. Bond"). The Bond girls (save Britt Eckland and Tanya Roberts) were always intelligent women who could protect themselves. Most importantly (in relation to this post), Lois Maxwell's groundbreaking portrayal of Moneypenny was never ever a butt-slapped piece of wet luttuced, Barry Manilow admiring, thick spectacled goofy mouse. Heck, Penelope Smallbone in her thirty second cameo from OCTOPUSSY had a presence, elegance and dignity (even when she sighed after Bond's exit at least she never did it to his face).

Caroline Bliss as Moneypenny was like the most offensively sexist drivel from a smutty British quota flick from the 70s- I want to say CARRY ON but it's more HOLIDAY ON THE BUSES. For every box ticked with confidence and satisfaction on THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS (and that's all of them bar "Moneypenny"), good lord they didn't have get this wrong. Plus, Bliss was apparently only in her mid 20s when she did the movie - why then is she dressed like a middle aged secretary? No style, no sense of self respect...

It wasn't just the writing either. Watch the spectacles slide against Bliss' face without an iota of self respect, watch Timothy Dalton seemingly dismiss Ms. Bliss with a slap on the buttocks without even looking at her- she doesn't care, he doesn't care; her only loss is that Barry Manilow didn't help Bond get into Moneypenny's concerningly desperate pants. Lois who?? Twenty five years of what???

What a refresher it was- and I mean SUPEREMELY refreshing to see Samantha Bond turn up in GOLDENEYE, enjoying a date at the opera (class, taste, a life and NO Barry Manilow come ons), utterly professional and leading the way. Self respect, dignity, style (all Lois characterisitic's but made her own), but also intelligent enough to play the game with Bond and leave him to his manhood. Highly engaging for Bond (and a great run-up to the grilling he gets from the new "M").


THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS is a classic. It is one of the best Bond films and always will be. John Glen however obviously did not assign any time to the reimaging of Moneypenny. I guess it was a toss up between that and storyboarding the cello chase. Oh well.






"Anytime you'd like to drop by, and listen to my, Barry Manilow, collection"...

[Cruiserweight]

I never did pay much attention to Caroline Bliss as Moneypenny but i think her look as Moneypenny with the glasses and hair was sexy.

[Publius]

The Bond girls (save Britt Eckland and Tanya Roberts) were always intelligent women who could protect themselves.

I'd also argue Tatiana, Solitaire, and Tiffany Case in the latter part of DAF.

Anyway, Moneypenny as a young, nerdy, hopeless admirer of Bond was a refreshing change of pace after 25 years of Lois Maxwell assertiveness. It was also a better fit for Dalton's Bond.

And I don't mind a little sexism in my Bond movies, at least if it's in the form of Timothy Dalton giving a friendly "baseball player" pat on the butt to Moneypenny. Really, the Connery (and even Lazenby and Moore) variety of sexism was a lot more offensive, if that's the sort of thing that offends you anyway.

[Vauxhall]

I never did pay much attention to Caroline Bliss as Moneypenny but i think her look as Moneypenny with the glasses and hair was sexy.

I agree that the look certainly had potential... However, anyone who discusses Barry Manilow in the workplace immediately loses my respect

[Royal Dalton]

It was supposed to be a joke...

Anyway, Caroline Bliss was fine as Moneypenny. Not that she was given any opportunity at all to make the role her own.

And Connery gave Dink and Tiffany Case a pat on the bum, and it didn't do either of them any harm, as far as I know.

Sexist, perhaps. But that's James Bond for you.

[Vauxhall]

It was supposed to be a joke...

Yes, I know. My comment was said largely in jest

I may be missing the point but I don't really see where all this talk of sexism comes from. There are far more obvious cases of misogyny from other parts of the series. I would say that Caroline Bliss was not miscast, but the problem was that the part written for the character differed so much from those written for Lois Maxwell. Such a stark contrast in the character was difficult to do justice within a mere two movies.

[Royal Dalton]

Yeah, and Bliss only got one shot at a proper Bond/Moneypenny scene, as well. She had potential.

I liked the specs, too.

[tim partridge]

I disagree that it was merely a problem of bad writing. Bliss, as much I love John Glen, was totally without direction, and I bet Glen himself would admit that. It didn't help that Bliss has no natural charm or charisma- I think DIE ANOTHER DAY had an unarguably more derogatory and cheap portrayal of Moneypenny, but at least even with the cybersex low point of the franchise, Samantha Bond could still win the audience over and never made the character vacant. You could still empathise with the character and her desire (even if the visualisation is totally the antithesis of what a Bond film is about). Imagine Bliss in that virtual sex scene. Yeesh. She would've just come across as some cheap whore with her legs open.

And Connery gave Dink and Tiffany Case a pat on the bum, and it didn't do either of them any harm, as far as I know.

They hardly had much going on upstairs though. If Bond had slapped Pussy Galore or Honey Rider on the buttocks they would've ripped his arm off. Rightfully. Teresa too. Or Rosa Klebb.

[Royal Dalton]

Imagine Bliss in that virtual sex scene. Yeesh. She would've just come across as some cheap whore with her legs open.

I don't think a posh girl like Bliss would have come across as a cheap whore. An expensive one, perhaps...

Maybe she wouldn't have lowered herself to perform such a scene, anyway.

And Connery gave Dink and Tiffany Case a pat on the bum, and it didn't do either of them any harm, as far as I know.

They hardly had much going on upstairs though. If Bond had slapped Pussy Galore or Honey Rider on the buttocks they would've ripped his arm off. Rightfully. Teresa too.

Oh, I dunno. Bond did patronise Teresa by calling her a "good girl". And she still married the sexist git.

It didn't do her any good, though, of course...

Or Rosa Klebb.

Klebb would have enjoyed it.

[Turn]

Lois Maxwell's groundbreaking portrayal of Moneypenny was never ever a butt-slapped piece of wet luttuced, Barry Manilow admiring, thick spectacled goofy mouse.

What a refresher it was- and I mean SUPEREMELY refreshing to see Samantha Bond turn up in GOLDENEYE, enjoying a date at the opera (class, taste, a life and NO Barry Manilow come ons), utterly professional and leading the way. Self respect, dignity, style (all Lois characterisitic's but made her own), but also intelligent enough to play the game with Bond and leave him to his manhood. Highly engaging for Bond (and a great run-up to the grilling he gets from the new "M").

We are talking about Moneypenny, the Moneypenny who is M's personal secretary? Way too much thought on this one for what is essentially a throwaway character.

First, what was groundbreaking about Lois Maxwell in the way she pined hopelessly for Bond? Yes, she became a bit more of a feminist in the Moore days, but it was more a relection of the times than any real character development there. Maxwell's byplay with Roger was the key there.

And she was butt-slapped by Laz in OHMSS.

As for Samantha Bond's portryal, the less said the better. She was why, IMO, the office characters seemed to become annoying in the Brosnan era. We had a female M to put Bond in his place, why did we need two? I saw absolutely no chemistry betwen her and Brosnan and the character just seemed there to partake in smutty jokes.

That doesn't mean I necessarily hold a torch for Caroline Bliss, but at least she wasn't asked to do a scene where she was caught with her skirt up with a virtual reality simulator, a scene that seemed to be dropped from a late '70s era Moore movie, had that technology been around at the time.

And I hope the character does not return anytime soon because she adds little to nothing to the series at this point.

[Monsieur B]

And she was butt-slapped by Laz in OHMSS.

Correction: 'butt-pinched'

[triviachamp]

First, what was groundbreaking about Lois Maxwell in the way she pined hopelessly for Bond?

Yeah that baffled me too. I guess the fact that Lois was in her mid 30s (older than Roger even!) and didn't sleep with him despite all of the flirting was groundbreaking?

[tim partridge]

I thought everyone loved Lois Maxwell unconditionally?

Maybe groundbreaking isn't the right word- pioneering? I think that you guys are right in that Maxwell's performance moved with the times more than anything else, but I think she added a light humour and chemistry with all three of her Bonds. She was never just a piece of meat designed to aid the plot, which is what I found worst about Bliss' mousey interpretation of the character (granted it was writing/direction aswell). Bliss was a pretty inadequate piece of meat too, by Bond's own reaction. I just can't see Lois Maxwell or Sam Bond staring so vacantly as any of the Bonds drop those glasses across her face and dismiss her with a bored pat. It wasn't a funny or charming moment. It's the one painful lowpoint in TLD.

Just out of interest-

Turn gave Samantha Bond's Ms Moneypenny quite the slamming- is his opinion more or less general consensus among Bond fans? I'm very interested to hear your opinions on her performance and interpretation of the character (I'm clearly a fan).

Edited by tim partridge, 15 September 2007 - 12:37 PM.

[stamper]

Caroline Bliss was the ! I'm sorry guys, but Samantha Bond doesn't make it for me, all her performances seems forced, her inuendoes... don't even go there...

[Royal Dalton]

Turn gave Samantha Bond's Ms Moneypenny quite the slamming- is his opinion more or less general consensus among Bond fans? I'm very interested to hear your opinions on her performance and interpretation of the character (I'm clearly a fan).

I'm not a massive fan of Sam Bond's Moneypenny. It's the dialogue that's the problem, though, not her.

In my opinion, Moneypenny should be spunky, not spiky. But in her films, the playful banter has largely been replaced by put downs and single entendres.

The emasculation of James Bond by M and Moneypenny during the Brozza era was awful.

Talk about henpecked!

[Publius]

The problem with Samantha Bond is that she was annoyingly "girl power" in Goldeneye (unsurprising, as enlightened 90s wisdom was symptomatic of the whole movie), but annoyingly horny and desperate in Die Another Day (which wasn't helped by her getting along in years while Bond was cavorting with a 22 year old). In between, she was just plain annoying.

Really, I think Caroline Bliss, for all her shortcomings, was the best Moneypenny save possibly Lois Maxwell in the first four or five films.

[Turn]

I thought everyone loved Lois Maxwell unconditionally?

Maybe groundbreaking isn't the right word- pioneering? I think that you guys are right in that Maxwell's performance moved with the times more than anything else, but I think she added a light humour and chemistry with all three of her Bonds. She was never just a piece of meat designed to aid the plot, which is what I found worst about Bliss' mousey interpretation of the character (granted it was writing/direction aswell). Bliss was a pretty inadequate piece of meat too, by Bond's own reaction. I just can't see Lois Maxwell or Sam Bond staring so vacantly as any of the Bonds drop those glasses across her face and dismiss her with a bored pat. It wasn't a funny or charming moment. It's the one painful lowpoint in TLD.

Just out of interest-

Turn gave Samantha Bond's Ms Moneypenny quite the slamming- is his opinion more or less general consensus among Bond fans? I'm very interested to hear your opinions on her performance and interpretation of the character (I'm clearly a fan).

Hope I didn't sound too rude. Nothing personal, Tim Partridge, as it's obviously a good topic and one you must feel is important as well for me to get that into it. That and I was feeling a bit surly at that point last night.

One of the funny things about Lois Maxwell's Moneypenny that came to mind was she actually posed in a couple of risque, but not overly revealing, shots in Playboy in the big Thunderball issue in 1965. I couldn't even imagine either of the other two doing that.

That also leads me to wonder where EON stands on its actresses posing for Playboy. They've obviously been grateful for the promotion over the years, but I wonder if there are boundaries.

[tim partridge]

No rudeness taken, Turn. Although I do live next door to Sam Bond, and last night I could hear crying until six in the morning.

I am quite blown away that Bliss' Moneypenny has so many admirers. Honestly, to me she's the Lazenby of the Moneypennys, except Lazenby would never be caught dead having his buck teethed slapped after an unfunny Barry Manilow come on. Each to their own.

I am actually rather looking forward to a new Moneypenny. Hopefully Samantha Bond will return (with better writing than P&W on DAD), and if not, maybe Tamsin Grieg? Olivia Coleman I think could be so bad she'd be brilliant...

[Cruiserweight]

Yes please!
http://i234.photobuc...BlissDalton.jpg


But this picture is another story.....


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Edited by Qwerty, 17 September 2007 - 05:07 AM.

[Scottlee]

I liked Bliss as Moneypenny, although she's obviously not as good as Maxwell was. I would take Bliss over Samantha Bond though. The latter to me has always seemed like a younger version of Judi Dench's M, and kind of lacking a personality of her own. Bliss was okay. Not great but okay. I would have been happy to see her return in Goldeneye.

[Qwerty]

[Crusierweight, keep copyrighted images out of the IMG tags on the CBn Forums. Thanks.]

[DaveBond21]

I've never met an independent, intelligent, beautiful, fun, and vibrant woman who didn't like a pat on the bum, from time to time.

[LadySylvia]

Was Caroline Bliss miscast as Miss Moneypenny? No. I don't see how she was miscast. Was she supposed to be Lois Maxwell 2.0? Miss Bliss played Moneypenny as a sweet woman who had openly had a crush on Bond. And at least she was spared some of the embarrassments - including bad dialogue - that Samantha Bond had to endure during Brosnan's tenure.

It's so weird that Bond of 1987 was so decidedly monogomous in wake of the AIDS scare, probably the first time the screen incarnation of 007 had to pander to poltical correctness.

In TLD, Bond slept with twice the number of women that the literary Bond has in one novel - namely two. He slept with the bored heiress on the yacht in the pre-titled sequence and Kara Milovy. In CR, he only slept with one - namely Vesper Lynd.

I don't see why it is necessary for Bond to sleep with a slew of women in each movie.

Edited by LadySylvia, 17 September 2007 - 06:21 AM.

[DaveBond21]

I don't see why it is necessary for Bond to sleep with a slew of women in each movie.

Yeah, but he's British, and we're all easy and sleep around all the time, so it's only being realistic.

We've got the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe, so we learn early too.

[LadySylvia]

Yeah, but he's British, and we're all easy and sleep around all the time, so it's only being realistic.

You're a funny guy, Dave21!

[byline]

I would say that Caroline Bliss was not miscast, but the problem was that the part written for the character differed so much from those written for Lois Maxwell. Such a stark contrast in the character was difficult to do justice within a mere two movies.

Exactly what I was going to post; she was not so much miscast as miswritten, IMO.

[Panavision]

I agree, she wasn't miscast but miswritten. Wish they gave her something to do in LTK.

Not sure why anyone would have a problem with a pat on the bum, it's Bond, it's in inherent in his character.

[Binyamin]

Didn't Bond sleep with Solange also? Seems like that scene was originally longer but was cut.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Not sure; was it included in one of the trailers?

[LadySylvia]

Didn't Bond sleep with Solange also? Seems like that scene was originally longer but was cut.

I don't know about that. But in the final version, he didn't sleep with her. In fact, the only woman he had slept with in CR was Vesper.