Not Fleming NOT Bond
#1
Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:14 AM
#2
Posted 22 July 2007 - 08:34 AM
#3
Posted 22 July 2007 - 12:30 PM
#4
Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:09 PM
#5
Posted 22 July 2007 - 07:01 PM
#6
Posted 22 July 2007 - 08:12 PM
#7
Posted 22 July 2007 - 08:48 PM
Just let your imagination bend a bit and don't hold every continuation novel up to some dower requirement of being "true" to Fleming (or your own idea of what being "true" to Fleming means). Bend with the books as you bend with the movies. As I said, I actually think of all the continuation novels, the YB novels are the closet to Fleming in their mixture of a classic English boys adventure novel (with stout hero) and this weird, kinky world of the "Bondian" element.
#8
Posted 22 July 2007 - 09:36 PM
I accept that the Fleming books are canon and no-one can write James Bond like Fleming. But this doesn't mean I can't step outside the box of 14 books. I'm a fan of the James Bond character and I enjoy seeing how the character and world are interpreted by new authors (and filmmakers via the movies). Some of these post Fleming adventures I like. Some I don't. It's just not a big deal.
Couldn't have said it better myself. There's alot of great books out there (and yes, a few lesser ones too). Whether it was Fleming, Gardner, Benson, or Higson, I was always excited to start a new Bond novel.
#9
Posted 23 July 2007 - 02:34 AM
Superman, Batman, Conan and many other series continue years after the creators have moved on and many of these franchises (along with Bond) prove that great, viable stories can be told ... sometimes even better than the creator's stories. I judge them all on their own merits rather than by who wrote it or some need to say the original works are better.
#10
Posted 23 July 2007 - 02:51 PM
Fleming was a genius, but Gardner should be punished.
#11
Posted 23 July 2007 - 05:25 PM
#12
Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:40 PM
I've never gotten a chance to read Colonel Sun, but from the overall consensus, it sounds like I'm gonna HAVE to find a way to get a hold of it.
#13
Posted 24 July 2007 - 02:04 PM
Colonel Sun on the other hand was fantastic. If i didn't know it, i would have thought Fleming wrote it. However the time it was written definately helps.
I am so happy that Devil May Care will be set in the 60's.
With the continuation novels of Benson and Gardner, each started out fairly strong and kept getting worse as the series progressed. I remember liking both License Renewed and Zero Minus Ten when they came out and being barely able to finish each of their last Bond books. What was telling, however, was when I then went back and re-read the Fleming novels. Ian really wrote much better than anyone who has tried to continue his work. They all seem like poor substitutes if you read some of them and then immediately compare with a Fleming passage. I have only read a few chapters of the first Young Bond novel which I intend to finish. I can't comment on it except to say that it seems entertaining if I forget its supposed to be Bond. It seems more like Harry Potter goes to Spy School. It's been a long time since I've read Colonel Sun, but I'll re-read it again at some point. Frankly, for a non-Fleming Bond fix I've been reading the Titan Comics collection, which at least look like Bond and some of which are Fleming stories.
I totally concur. The young bond series strikes me as being Harry Potterish for a number of reasons, i) it's badly written ii)the character does not appear to me to be anything like Bond (but more resembles something out of Enid Blyton ie: Bond goes Bananas for Marmite or some such !!) iii) I am constantly aware of the author who is 'hooking' the chapters like JK Rowling does as if she has the movie in mind when she is writing it, and iv) it seems to be targetting 14 year old boys, but is in fact more suited to 7 year old girls! By that I mean the standard of writing is more suited to a 7/8 year old, but the subject matter more suited to a 14 year old boy scout, and a privately educated one at that.
Fleming had three things going for him. He was a talented writer, his depth of character and character development is unsurpassed, and his plots were fantastically convoluted yet credible. I equate Fleming with Frederick Forsythe, hard to beat.
#14
Posted 24 July 2007 - 02:38 PM
I'm with MHazard and Ms Minniespinniy, Young Bond has not blown me away and I am unconvinced this is the same character that Fleming created. By stripping away the violence, womanising and social commentary, there is but a hollow shell left.
I too find it hard to work up any real enthusiasm for Young Bond. I did read SILVERFIN, and found it "okay", but I don't think it adds anything to the world of 007, and it most certainly doesn't echo Fleming in any meaningful way. BLOODFEVER and DOUBLE OR DIE are on my bookshelf, as yet unread. I mean, I'm aware that I'm not exactly part of the target market, but then again I am a Bond fan; still, I guess I must be one of those Bond fans on whom the Higson magic just doesn't work.
But DEVIL MAY CARE looks set to be the perfect antidote for those of us who love COLONEL SUN and are underwhelmed by Young Bond. Faulks may well be the the most brilliant writer ever attached to James Bond, more so than even Fleming or Amis.
I base that statement on having just finished his 1992 novel A FOOL'S ALPHABET, one of the most original, most moving and most thought-provoking things I've read in years. Beautifully-written, it also convinces me that Faulks is capable of bringing us a Fleming's Bond who's more Fleming's Bond than Fleming's Bond. I posted the following on another thread the other day:
Okay, hope I don't get in trouble for posting this, but here is a sneak preview (courtesy of a friend of a friend whose uncle's accountant's nephew knows someone who knows someone at IFP) of the opening of DEVIL MAY CARE:
JAMES BOND WAS the only passenger to leave the plane when it stopped at Colombo on its way from Hong Kong to the Middle East. Hong Kong to Colombo is a strange trip to make. A few Chinese businessmen might reluctantly leave the Crown colony and inspect some business project in up-country Sri Lanka to see if it is worth the investment of a few million dollars. Or some unusually adventurous Sinhalese businessman might be returning after an attempt to raise capital in Hong Kong for a scheme in his native island. But these things are rare, and when Bond came down the steps of the Boeing 747, there was only him to feel the heavy night air that blew in from the palm trees round the airport.
It was a luxurious sensation. He was the only man to offer a passport to the smiling immigration clerk, the only man to see his suitcases carried in by the equally smiling porter. There was none of the usual feeling of displacement. There was hardly anyone there at all.
Bond wondered how the thin porter could carry his heavy cases outside to the taxi and tipped him an inordinate amount which in Hong Kong might have passed for normal but which in Colombo seemed to render the porter speechless. Soon the taxi driver was telling him how the Sri Lankan cricket team was as good as any in the world. He drove a Morris Oxford in high gear in the middle of the road, turning round frequently to emphasise his claims for the skill of Gehan Mendis or Ravi Ratnayake. He used the horn to move the night-time bicyclists and bullock carts, but never touched the brakes. His style of driving, one-geared, one-paced, was like that of a New York cab driver on Fifth Avenue when he gets a good run of lights late at night, though his conversation, not being a paranoid creole from behind bulletproof glass, was more enjoyable.
The night was exotically warm. The air was soft, though occasionally there would come a blast like that from an air extractor in the kitchen of an Indian restaurant. Bond lay back against the seat, unable to help out further on the problem of the island's shortage of quick bowlers. He watched the palm trees and wooden roadside shacks trail out behind them.
--------
I'm only about halfway through the manuscript, but already there's an AMAZING twist. I'm posting it because I want CBn to break this and not any other source, and it's absolutely guaranteed to be leaked long before DEVIL MAY CARE hits bookshops, so here it is. You'll be completely stunned by this. But I'm putting it in spoiler tags for those who want the surprise preserved for when they read the book. Here goes:Spoiler
#15
Posted 24 July 2007 - 04:16 PM
If that's the style used in DMC, i'm an extra happy man. BTW i am also currently reading Winder's book and once i finish i look forward to reading your comments as well as everyone elses. One thing is sure, he hates Conservatism with a passion.
And Ms Minniespinnie (keep wanting to call you Moneyspinie for some reason), all great minds think alike :-)
I'm with MHazard and Ms Minniespinniy, Young Bond has not blown me away and I am unconvinced this is the same character that Fleming created. By stripping away the violence, womanising and social commentary, there is but a hollow shell left.
I too find it hard to work up any real enthusiasm for Young Bond. I did read SILVERFIN, and found it "okay", but I don't think it adds anything to the world of 007, and it most certainly doesn't echo Fleming in any meaningful way. BLOODFEVER and DOUBLE OR DIE are on my bookshelf, as yet unread. I mean, I'm aware that I'm not exactly part of the target market, but then again I am a Bond fan; still, I guess I must be one of those Bond fans on whom the Higson magic just doesn't work.
But DEVIL MAY CARE looks set to be the perfect antidote for those of us who love COLONEL SUN and are underwhelmed by Young Bond. Faulks may well be the the most brilliant writer ever attached to James Bond, more so than even Fleming or Amis.
I base that statement on having just finished his 1992 novel A FOOL'S ALPHABET, one of the most original, most moving and most thought-provoking things I've read in years. Beautifully-written, it also convinces me that Faulks is capable of bringing us a Fleming's Bond who's more Fleming's Bond than Fleming's Bond. I posted the following on another thread the other day:Okay, hope I don't get in trouble for posting this, but here is a sneak preview (courtesy of a friend of a friend whose uncle's accountant's nephew knows someone who knows someone at IFP) of the opening of DEVIL MAY CARE:
JAMES BOND WAS the only passenger to leave the plane when it stopped at Colombo on its way from Hong Kong to the Middle East. Hong Kong to Colombo is a strange trip to make. A few Chinese businessmen might reluctantly leave the Crown colony and inspect some business project in up-country Sri Lanka to see if it is worth the investment of a few million dollars. Or some unusually adventurous Sinhalese businessman might be returning after an attempt to raise capital in Hong Kong for a scheme in his native island. But these things are rare, and when Bond came down the steps of the Boeing 747, there was only him to feel the heavy night air that blew in from the palm trees round the airport.
It was a luxurious sensation. He was the only man to offer a passport to the smiling immigration clerk, the only man to see his suitcases carried in by the equally smiling porter. There was none of the usual feeling of displacement. There was hardly anyone there at all.
Bond wondered how the thin porter could carry his heavy cases outside to the taxi and tipped him an inordinate amount which in Hong Kong might have passed for normal but which in Colombo seemed to render the porter speechless. Soon the taxi driver was telling him how the Sri Lankan cricket team was as good as any in the world. He drove a Morris Oxford in high gear in the middle of the road, turning round frequently to emphasise his claims for the skill of Gehan Mendis or Ravi Ratnayake. He used the horn to move the night-time bicyclists and bullock carts, but never touched the brakes. His style of driving, one-geared, one-paced, was like that of a New York cab driver on Fifth Avenue when he gets a good run of lights late at night, though his conversation, not being a paranoid creole from behind bulletproof glass, was more enjoyable.
The night was exotically warm. The air was soft, though occasionally there would come a blast like that from an air extractor in the kitchen of an Indian restaurant. Bond lay back against the seat, unable to help out further on the problem of the island's shortage of quick bowlers. He watched the palm trees and wooden roadside shacks trail out behind them.
--------
I'm only about halfway through the manuscript, but already there's an AMAZING twist. I'm posting it because I want CBn to break this and not any other source, and it's absolutely guaranteed to be leaked long before DEVIL MAY CARE hits bookshops, so here it is. You'll be completely stunned by this. But I'm putting it in spoiler tags for those who want the surprise preserved for when they read the book. Here goes:Spoiler
#16
Posted 24 July 2007 - 04:41 PM
#17
Posted 24 July 2007 - 07:45 PM
Makes perfect sense . I'm always disappointed that I don't like Benson more because his Bedside Companion is one of the best books about Bond and his world that there is, IMO. It's one of those 'if the house were on fire and you can only save one book about Bond' winners. Makes me feel a bit short changed when I read his novels, although I do still prefer him to Gardner. I think I'd be fine with both of them as authors, I just don't quite feel like I'm paticularly reading Bond with them - the protagonist's name could be changed to pretty much anything.At the time that I started reading Benson, I found him an easier and more "fun" read than Gardner. Although, I have only been able to read a couple of Gardner films. But then, Clancy-style political thrillers were the trendsetters of his day. I've read all of Benson, and he did come up with some interesting stories (though with copycat generic titles). My overall favorite was TFOD, but I really enjoyed the villain twis. It in NDOD. Still, his books felt not so much like Fleming, but like novelized film treatments; specifically, they felt like novels about the Bond that Brosnan was trying to be, if that makes any sense. I'm sure it doesn't.
#18
Posted 24 July 2007 - 08:19 PM
Makes perfect sense . I'm always disappointed that I don't like Benson more because his Bedside Companion is one of the best books about Bond and his world that there is, IMO. It's one of those 'if the house were on fire and you can only save one book about Bond' winners. Makes me feel a bit short changed when I read his novels, although I do still prefer him to Gardner. I think I'd be fine with both of them as authors, I just don't quite feel like I'm paticularly reading Bond with them - the protagonist's name could be changed to pretty much anything.At the time that I started reading Benson, I found him an easier and more "fun" read than Gardner. Although, I have only been able to read a couple of Gardner films. But then, Clancy-style political thrillers were the trendsetters of his day. I've read all of Benson, and he did come up with some interesting stories (though with copycat generic titles). My overall favorite was TFOD, but I really enjoyed the villain twis. It in NDOD. Still, his books felt not so much like Fleming, but like novelized film treatments; specifically, they felt like novels about the Bond that Brosnan was trying to be, if that makes any sense. I'm sure it doesn't.
Interestingly enough, the way you feel about Gardner and Benson's books is the way I feel about the Brosnan Bond movies-I don't feel like I'm watching Bond, the protagonist's name could be changed to almost anything.
#19
Posted 24 July 2007 - 08:22 PM
And that also makes perfect sense to meMakes perfect sense . I'm always disappointed that I don't like Benson more because his Bedside Companion is one of the best books about Bond and his world that there is, IMO. It's one of those 'if the house were on fire and you can only save one book about Bond' winners. Makes me feel a bit short changed when I read his novels, although I do still prefer him to Gardner. I think I'd be fine with both of them as authors, I just don't quite feel like I'm paticularly reading Bond with them - the protagonist's name could be changed to pretty much anything.At the time that I started reading Benson, I found him an easier and more "fun" read than Gardner. Although, I have only been able to read a couple of Gardner films. But then, Clancy-style political thrillers were the trendsetters of his day. I've read all of Benson, and he did come up with some interesting stories (though with copycat generic titles). My overall favorite was TFOD, but I really enjoyed the villain twis. It in NDOD. Still, his books felt not so much like Fleming, but like novelized film treatments; specifically, they felt like novels about the Bond that Brosnan was trying to be, if that makes any sense. I'm sure it doesn't.
Interestingly enough, the way you feel about Gardner and Benson's books is the way I feel about the Brosnan Bond movies-I don't feel like I'm watching Bond, the protagonist's name could be changed to almost anything.
#20
Posted 24 July 2007 - 08:28 PM
Oh yes, i fell for that one Loomis, when you first posted it!!! How could I?
Don't worry, I nearly fell for it myself, and it was my windup. There's another extraordinarily Flemingian bit in A FOOL'S ALPHABET - can't be bothered to type it out, but it's in the chapter entitled "Terminal 5" - where the main character, on a flight, contemplates the horror of an air crash and wonders how on earth the plane can possibly remain airbone in the first place and how all the rivets can stand all the buffeting, and so on.
There are similar morbid passages in, if memory serves, no fewer than three of the Flemings: LIVE AND LET DIE, DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER and FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, in which the normally unflappable 007 gets on a passenger jet and starts fretting about what might happen. It's curiously out of character for our hero - equivalent to his sitting down at a posh restaurant and worrying about bacteria in the caviar; and would seem to have been something that concerned Fleming quite a bit, otherwise why put essentially the same thing in three novels? (Or perhaps it was in a mental file of his marked "Things to Pad Out the Books With", along with descriptions of card games, liberal mentions of the word "gunmetal", etc.) However, the literary Bond's evident unease in planes is something that "Bond scholars" *ahem* are strangely quiet about.
But, yes, there's at least one other stretch of uncannily (accidentally?) Flemingian prose in A FOOL'S ALPHABET, that could with just a change of a character's name be passed off as part of DEVIL MAY CARE. The new Bond novel is in almost absurdly safe hands.
#21
Posted 25 July 2007 - 01:57 AM
Reading this thread has confirmed two decisions: 1. I'm definitely reading Devil May Care when it comes out (how could I not anyway) and 2. I'm gonna order a copy of Colonel Sun from Amazon and re-read it (I haven't read it since it first came out). I may also check out Forsythe (since Ms. Minniepenny seems to like him) and FYI, in a burst of convuluted logic I just finished Lucky Jim by Amis, which is his famous book, figuring if he liked Bond, then maybe his other stuff wasn't too bad (it's okay, but not attending an English college in the 1950's much was lost on me).
#22
Posted 25 July 2007 - 10:50 AM
Am I the only one on this forum that just does not enjoy the various attempts by other authors to recreate the Bond character? I have to say, I think YOUNG BOND is one of the worst. I have only read one mind you, but the style of writing is so different and the character unlike Bond in habit and too much like post CR Bond in character. I only enjoy the Fleming books, though I enjoy the movies which is strange because Fleming is not responsible for the screenplays.
Well, I enjoy most of the non-Fleming material. Largely not on the same level as I enjoy Fleming's originals mind you, but I do enjoy most of it. I really like seeing various interpretations of Bond, from the continuation novels to the non-Fleming based comics and beyond. I find it all rather fascinating...
#23
Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:02 PM
Another thing I notice is that the references to luxury brands seem shoehorned in. To Fleming they were personal preferences, in Gardner I feel he has to stick them in where he can as they are on his 'Bond checklist'. What else? Oh yes, in Role of Honour again, the plot seems particularly dated, so much so that it's almost unreadable today. All the emerging technology 'micro' stuff somehow seems more dated than Fleming's plots from a quarter of a century earlier.
Apart from specific things that are jarring me, the tone in general seems to have been very influenced by the films, they almost read like novelisations or films that never were, but I enjoy the differences between the Fleming books and the films. Reading Gardner does highlight for me Fleming's dark side. Just reading Fleming it doesn't notice so much, but following Fleming with Gardner, I really notice a darkness in the soul of James Bond, and Gardner's Bond is missing that depth. He's film Bond.
They're still an enjoyable read but to me they're just not quite Bond, somehow.
#24
Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:55 PM
You know, that always really annoyed me too, right from the first moment I heard it. You're right, this sort of thing doesn't happen in real life, and it certainly doesn't happen in the world of James Bond. Family? Bah!Something else that has always annoyed me as a lazy plot device is the 'inheritance from long lost relative', particularly when accompanied by spend quickly conditions. No, it just doesn't happen. If you need to find a way for your character to suddenly have a load of money, find something else.
Certainly there was a more "Bondian" way to get the money. How about after having the hell bashed out of him in Icebreaker, Bond heads off Royale-les-Ex to gamble and "recuperate." After two weeks, he returns with a sunburn, a hang-over, the memory of a passionate affair (and ugly breakup with tears and such -- silly woman), and
#25
Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:44 AM
Apart from specific things that are jarring me, the tone in general seems to have been very influenced by the films, they almost read like novelisations or films that never were, but I enjoy the differences between the Fleming books and the films.e Bond, somehow.
I never got this from Gardner, if anything it's Benson that reads like a movie novelization. The pacing of Gardner's work was always more literary than film IMO.
#26
Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:57 AM
I accept that the Fleming books are canon and no-one can write James Bond like Fleming. But this doesn't mean I can't step outside the box of 14 books. I'm a fan of the James Bond character and I enjoy seeing how the character and world are interpreted by new authors (and filmmakers via the movies). Some of these post Fleming adventures I like. Some I don't. It's just not a big deal.
As usual, I agree with zencat here. I think the Christopher Wood books are excellent, there are a number of the Gardner's I enjoy and some of Benson's I enjoy.
I also really enjoy the Young Bond adventures for what they are. I think Higson is an exceptionally gifted author and he has brought the character to a whole new generation of readers. Rather than being sneered at by some fans he should be appreciated for ensuring a healthy life for the character in the years to come.
Also, anyone who thinks that Fleming is the be-all and end-all of Bond literature (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) should reread The Man With The Golden Gun. Yes, yes, I know Fleming was ill when he wrote it and it's still an entertaining read, but personally speaking I would take both of the Wood's, some of Gardner's and some of Benson's over it.
#27
Posted 31 July 2007 - 02:34 AM
Also, anyone who thinks that Fleming is the be-all and end-all of Bond literature (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) should reread The Man With The Golden Gun. Yes, yes, I know Fleming was ill when he wrote it and it's still an entertaining read, but personally speaking I would take both of the Wood's, some of Gardner's and some of Benson's over it.
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one, but I'm sure you're not surprised. It was a sad novel for the likes of Fleming, but still enjoyable. Of course I can understand someone who holds this opinion because while many of the continuation novels are pretty... sad, there are some real gems in there.
I like some of the attempts by other authors, but nobody has really come close to Fleming if you ask me. Each author IMO has gotten a good one in (at least) that makes their entire series worth it though. I can find tons of things to complain about from some of the authors, actually I could go on endlessly about Gardner who bores the ever living daylights out of me more so with his later books, but they all have their moments. I will say that I think Blood Fever is probably the best of all the continuation books though.
#28
Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:58 AM
A handful more than once.
#29
Posted 31 July 2007 - 01:00 PM
I haven't read the YB series because I thought at 41, or whatever age I was when the series started, I should set myself some limits as to how far I should go 'down this road'.
However, I am reading the newspaper Titan strips, but perhaps that has more to do with the gratuitous nudity than the traditional comment inspiring form in which the stories are presented. ie, "Comics, pah!"
#30
Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:13 PM
Also, anyone who thinks that Fleming is the be-all and end-all of Bond literature (and I know I am going to get flamed for this) should reread The Man With The Golden Gun. Yes, yes, I know Fleming was ill when he wrote it and it's still an entertaining read, but personally speaking I would take both of the Wood's, some of Gardner's and some of Benson's over it.
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one, but I'm sure you're not surprised. It was a sad novel for the likes of Fleming, but still enjoyable. Of course I can understand someone who holds this opinion because while many of the continuation novels are pretty... sad, there are some real gems in there.
I like some of the attempts by other authors, but nobody has really come close to Fleming if you ask me. Each author IMO has gotten a good one in (at least) that makes their entire series worth it though. I can find tons of things to complain about from some of the authors, actually I could go on endlessly about Gardner who bores the ever living daylights out of me more so with his later books, but they all have their moments. I will say that I think Blood Fever is probably the best of all the continuation books though.
Actually I don't think we disagree. I would agree with all that you said. Though there are some Gardner books I do really enjoy (e.g. Icebreaker).
Certainly Blood Fever is also my favorite of all the continuation novels.