83 replies to this topic

[ChandlerBing]

When it comes to Timothy Dalton, could there BE anyone worse as Bond than this guy? I don't care if someone says he looks like he did in the books. Was James Bond ever this ugly? Was he ever this free of charisma? Yeah, someone said that Bond should be a bastard, but does that mean all the time? Does the mainstream public want to spend 2 1/2 hrs with someone who is absolutely NO FUN to be with? Ok, my first rant, my first post, off to a good start already. Here's a listing of why Timothy Dalton didn't cut it for me as James Bond.

1. The man looked like he was at a funeral all the time. People want to have fun going to a Bond movie. Dalton's movies helped pave the way for **** like XXX.
2. Dalton's fight scenes look like he was just going through the motions with the stuntmen. Forget the headbutting and the kicking in the balls, Dalton just wasn't believable. Look at his embarrassing scenes running around without a shirt in Licence To Kill with the stupid twit who loves James soooo much. He looks like a little guy!
3. When Connery threw a punch, you winced. When he seduced Pussy Galore, you believed it. When Dalton throws a punch, you're looking at your watch. When Dalton seduced what's her name, you find yourself snickering.
4. Timothy who? When people go to see a Bond movie or even talk about Bond, they know the actor pretty well. "Hey, let's go see the new Sean Connery Bond" or "Hey, the new Bond movie's opening!" "Is Pierce Brosnan in it?" "Yes." "Ok, I'm there." Dalton was not a star and didn't want to be one. What he was doing in such a high profile role is beyond me. Of course what he was doing playing the Clark Gable part in Scarlett is also beyond me as well.
5. Oh, we're not like the Roger Moore films. We're so much different than they are! Those kinds of comments made me sick when I heard them. For all the carping about Roger Moore, he still kept the series going, making money for the studio when nothing else they really did worked. How different were they than the Roger Moore films? The blond bimbo in The Living Daylights could be Tiny Roberts' long lost sis. The plot in the same movie was almost incomprehensible and really made no sense. It was really abysmal. But then again so was Dalton.
6. The villains in Dalton's movies were comical. The guy from Walking Tall as a villain? At least he was properly used for comic effect when Brosnan FINALLY got the role. Koskov was going around hugging everyone he met. That left Necros, and we know what happened to him. And Robert Davi? Pineapple face himself? The man looked like Noriega! And we know what happened to him...
7. The theme songs of both movies sucked beyond all belief. Aha....hmm, where are they now? They were arrogant little pipsqueaks who didn't like John Barry. I think they're opening malls in their native country now. And Gladys Knight's theme for License To Kill was terrible, ripping off the opening bars of Goldfinger. The video itself is laughable and horrific.

I know I'm probably going to get ripped for this post, but I believe in honesty, and I'm prepared to give as good as I get.

[Double-0 Six]

I'm not arguing with you, but I disagree with most of your points (the exception being point '7' - both themes are pretty forgetable).

Dalton had something in his eyes conveyed the emotions of Bond perfectly - you could believe that Dalton's Bond would kill you.

As for the fun aspect, you're correct that Dalton's movies weren't as humourous as the Moore era, but they weren't meant to be. Dalton's Bond was a back-to-reality serious character, faithful to the Fleming original and taking the movies beyond the rut they had gotten stuck in.

I like Dalton as Bond and as an actor, its a shame he didn't get the chance to prove his critics wrong with a third movie.

[Roebuck]

Firstly, I can't think of a Bond actor I haven't liked. Maybe that reflects a lack of discernment on my part?

Anyhow, in answer to a few of your points

4) When Sean Connery did Dr. No few people knew who the heck he was either.

5) Can I point out that Maryam d'Abo still has a career (unlike poor old Tanya Roberts) and is still drop dead gorgeous IMHO.

6) Jeroen Krabbe, Joe Don Baker , Robert Davie and (Oscar winner) Benicio Del Toro?
That's quite a line up of grade A acting talent in my book.

7) Dalton neither wrote or performed on the soundtracks of either movie so I'm confused as to the relevance of this one.

Still, full marks for being prepared to stand up for an opinion you know is going to be controversial.

[PaulZ108]

Interesting points, even if I must disagree and say that I thought Dalton was a great Bond.

But I sincerely hope that Bondpurist never sees this thread...

[zencat]

I think you're being too hard on Timmy D, ChandlerBing. Ugly?

[rafterman]

I like Dalton...

[Roebuck]

But I sincerely hope that Bondpurist never sees this thread...

The chances of that are between zilch and zero Paul.

Personally I cant wait.

[Mourning Becomes Electra]

Er actually isn't Tanya the one that's still acting? She was on That 70's Show until recently no? And she looked wonderful, but then looks were never her problem She was positively stunning in AVTAK until she openned he mouth.

As for the list well.... I'll just say Dalton was not ugly, then again Roger Moore wasn't the hideous troll Bondpurist keeps saying he is either. I have my favorites and sub-favorrites as Bond but none of them are unattractive men, it's one of the reasons why they got to play Bond.

[Roebuck]

Of course! I'd forgotten Tanya was in 'That 70's Show'.
I'm told she also did an episode of 'Off Centre' last year.

But Maryam was in the recent Doctor Zhivago TV remake, so she's still working.

[Bondpurist]

I have seen this thread at last!! Chandlerbing's argument was just one big largely irrelavent mess. What have villains, girls, Moore and theme tunes got to do with Dalton. You really did scrape the barrel a bit there!
Timothy Dalton is not ugly. Simple as that. In England, amongst 30 something females he's quite a sex symbol. MGM are hardly going to cast an ugly person as Bond are they? Open your eyes, chandlerbing. Dalton was less groomed and may not look like all these hollywood film stars but he's still pretty damn handsome.He wasn't a bastard all the time - he was really quite sweet to Kara in TLD, and had every excuse to be a bit pissed off in LTK considering what happened. He was dead on Flemings Bond - actually chandlerbing WE do care; seeing as Fleming created Bond, I think his Bond should be respected and at least partially emulated.
Dalton's films had quite a bit of humour actually, just quite subtle humour. It wasn't as overt and ridiculous as with Moore, but it was still there - check out several of his cello jokes, 'salt corrosion', 'atmospheric anomaly', 'optional extras', 'I know a great restaurant in Karachi. We can just make dinner.'
He was no comedian but his superfluous acting skills, excellent handling of the action scenes and occasional subtle humerous quip made him dangerous and exciting. Unlike Moore, Who was about as dangerous as a dead fish.
To answer his other points -
1) Dalton was serious. He didn't treat the films like a big joke. The literary Bond was serious, nervous and rarely joked. Dalton was very close to Fleming's Bond in this respect.
2) Dalton did what it said in the script with the fight scenes. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Ditto with Lupe and the scenes minus a shirt. He did what the script said. He didn't write it.
3) You provided no evidence. You just made a statement without backing it up with any evidence at all. Your feet wouldn't touch the ground in the houses of parliament. Dalton punched hard and seduced the women easily, if not more so, than Connery.
4) I'm assuming you're american, because he's very famous in England, easily as famous as Brosnan before he was Bond. Dalton had a certain dark charisma and good looks that appeal very much to the British. You should of seen him in Jane Eyre. Pierce Brosnan is really famous only now he's Bond - he was messing about in TV series like Remington Steele before Bond and was looked pretty sick about it.
5) Instead of attacking Dalton you're defending Moore. Maryam D'abo was twenty times the actress Tanya Roberts is and didn't follow Bond around like a lost sheep occasionally screaming 'Oh James' in a high pitched squeal -she was courageous and believable. Dalton didn't follow Moore's interpretation mindlessly - he reinvented and reinvigorated Bond with his OWN style and his OWN portrayal. He didn't criticise Moore that much, he just wanted to be his own Bond and not Moore's.
6) HOW ARE THE VILLAINS DALTON'S FAULT? HE DIDN'T CAST AND WRITE THE VILLAINS!!!!!!
7) THE THEME SONGS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DALTON!!!!
Could there be anyone worse as Bond as this guy? Yes. The other four actors who've played Bond.

[rafterman]

when making arguments about why someone is good or bad, you really need to keep your points on them, not things like the bad guys or the girls..like bondpurist said, Tim didn't write the things...and if you want to criticize the others, then it's a critique on the films, not the main actor....

[Bondpurist]

Thank you Rafterman. You can't blame Tim for everything!

[ChandlerBing]

The weather outside today sucks! It's all Dalton's fault! Ok, not really, but you left yourself open there, Bondpurist. Had to be done. Boy, you sure have a lot of anger about people not liking Dalton. I feel like I just said your mother wears army boots, and you come out of the woodwork with a bazooka! Easy! Down, boy!

Where to begin...

1. Okay, my eyes are open, Bondpurist...and....he's still ugly. Sorry, no bones about it, he's as ugly as Bond as you think Molly Warmflash was as a Bond girl.
2. Connery had Darbie O Gill and the Little People and was in Another Time, Another Place with Lana Turner. He was also in The Longest Day. Newspapers in London had polls before the casting had been finalized. Connery's name was at the top of the list. They knew damned well who he was. Witness in 1986, most people were indeed asking who the hell Timothy Dalton was.
3. Regarding fight scenes...compare on a split screen Connery nailing the driver in Dr. No and then watch Dalton's girly punches. And I really don't care about his bedwetting--excuse me, headbutting.
4. D'Abo does goes around screaming, "James!" in several scenes in The Living Daylights. I thought you watched that movie a million times a day. Go see it again...not that I have to tell you twice.
5. I find you very narrowminded, Bondpurist. You are a joy to debate because you just don't know when to shut up, judging by your other posts. I look forward to seeing you again on the boards. Until then, keep that popcorn extra buttery, but don't talk during the movie...people hate that!

[zencat]

1. I still don't think Dalton is ugly.
2. No one knew who Connery was in 1962. No one saw Darby O'Gill and the Little People and Connery had a VERY small part in The Longest Day. Cary Grant was at the top of their list.
3. I don't think it's fair to compare every Bond to Connery. Okay, Connery was great, but he's not Bond anymore. Get over it.
4. I like D'Abo and I didn't notice her "James!"
5. Bondpurist isn't narrowminded, he's just a Dalton fan and that's great. Cut him some slack and lay off him. Let the guy talk about Dalton without fear of getting slammed in every thread.

[Bondpurist]

1) He's not ugly. Ask a girl, go to the 'Is Dalton handsome' thread, go to the opticians - he's tall, dark, with a near symmetrical face. He radiates sexuality - he may not conform to modern american standards of 'attractiveness', but in Britain he is a SEX SYMBOL - he was cast as Rhett Butler, Mr Rochester and Heathcliff for christsakes - all Byronic heros of LEGENDARY handsomeness.
2) Maybe he wasn't that famous in America, but he damn well was here, in England. He was cast in many films, plays, etc., etc. and anyone with any cultural knowledge knew who he was - he was easily as famous as Kenneth Branagh is now for godsake.
3) Dalton hit pretty damn hard - I don't care what you say. Watch the scene where he takes out the prison guards, where he throws the plane crew out of the seaplane, the fight in the seedy bar in LTK, the fight with Necros ANYWHERE and you'll see effective, hard, violent punches. Yes, bedwetting is quite appropriate in a sentence concerning Dalton - he made his enemies wet the bed!!!!!!!
4) Once again, Dalton was NOT responsible for the behaviour and acting ability of Maryam D'abo. He had no control over her - besides, She says 'James' because it was in the script and she was frightened - I think I would be in such situations. Despite this she manages to come out of it credibly and REALISTICALLY.
5) I am not narrow minded - if you came up with any DECENT arguments against Dalton I would accept them. As it so happens you haven't. So I'm not going to give in to you. You can't use the 'be quiet and accept I'm right' tactics of some other people - I will not shut up and I will not stop defending Dalton, no matter how condescending you are.

[Bondpurist]

Thankyou very, very much Zencat. It's nice to know I have some friends.

[Roebuck]

Bondpurist is a joy to debate because he CAN debate.
He also knows his facts. :mad:

Why do we have to keep defending the Dalton era?
What was so wrong with it?
Dalton made two films that were very different from each other in tone.
Both were well made films and I'd have liked to see him do more.

[Bondpurist]

I agree with Roebuck!! I go to a debating club and don't waffle on about how TLD's villains were Dalton's fault. I also back up my opinions with evidence instead of just saying a statement and expecting it to be accepted without examples from films or any evidence at all.
That was very diplomatic Roebuck. I think we need a referee for some threads.

[ChandlerBing]

Witness when Dalton is in the plane and D'Abo is sad he's leaving without her. James! She screams, James! Go back, watch it again. She also blathers on about James when she runs into the cockpit, "James....!" She then stupidly grabs him so he then has to wrestle the plane out of the way of the colliding with the plane getting ready to land. Those are facts. You can deny them, or you can watch it again. I'll be waiting.

[Bondpurist]

So? She was acting like someone would in such dangerous situations. It's alright to show innocence and vulnerability in a Bond girl but just not in the dismal fashion of a certain Tanya Roberts.

[zencat]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
Witness when Dalton is in the plane and D'Abo is sad he's leaving without her.  James!  She screams, James!  Go back, watch it again.  She also blathers on about James when she runs into the cockpit, "James....!"  She then stupidly grabs him so he then has to wrestle the plane out of the way of the colliding with the plane getting ready to land.  Those are facts.  You can deny them, or you can watch it again.  I'll be waiting.

But that's what I love about Kara's character. She's a regular girl swept up in events and behaves as such. For once the Bond girl isn't a fellow agent (man, this has been done to death!). Maybe she comes off as a twit in comparison to a Triple X, but I found her sweet. She

[Bondpurist]

That's why I like Kara too. She's sweet and realistic, caught up in business she's not really responsible or ready for.

[ChandlerBing]

You find her to be sweet and realistic, I find her to be an annoying bimbo. At least, she didn't say,"Now, I love James soooo much!"

[Bondpurist]

Leave Talisa out of it! She didn't write the line. She made best of what she had to say.

[zencat]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
You find her to be sweet and realistic, I find her to be an annoying bimbo.  At least, she didn't say,"Now, I love James soooo much!"

Just... "I was worried for you James!"

Cringe. I remember that did a laugh in the theater. Poor thing.

That "I love James sooooo much" in LTK was sooooo bad I can't understand why they kept it in. It seemed like they could have cut that right out without loosing a thing. Of course, they would then have had to cut Pam's mocking reaction after she leaves and I thought that was a great Pam moment.

[Bondpurist]

Anyway, I hardly think a world class cellist is likely to be a bimbo. She's perfectly capable of doing the pissed off look - when she's walking out of the theatre with a coat over her arm, when she thinks Bond has betrayed her. She is a well rounded, three dimensional character.

[ChandlerBing]

If they laughed in the theater when you saw it, I'm obviously not alone in thinking such negative things about that character.

[Bondpurist]

God only knows why they didn't scrap the line. Pam's "Bull****!" was pretty funny though!

[zencat]

It was more of an embarrassed chuckle at how overplayed it was. And, come to think of it, maybe it only came from me. I don't blame the lovely Ms. D'Abo. The director should have reeled her in. TLD and LTK both suffer a bit from poor performance directing.

[ChandlerBing]

That's due to John Glen, who was not very good with the actors. He was an action director and that tended to piss off the actors. I think that story with the leads in LTK huddling together on their scenes was true. It certainly didn't help Glen's chances of being asked to direct another Bond after LTK, even if it had been a success. 5 in a row for a Bond director! Guy Hamilton only did 3!