57 replies to this topic

[MHazard]

This was inspired by musings considering recent posts on the DAF was it that bad thread. I think the biggest (but not only) problem with DAF is that it essentially ignores OHMSS. Which leads me to the question of whether DAF was intended to fit in continuity with OHMSS. The only two explanations for DAF essentially ignoring the death of Tracy are either: 1. Its supposed to take place before OHMSS (I guess that means after YOLT, since in YOLT Bond meets Blofeld for the first time) or 2. The Sean movies have their own continuity and we are to assume that OHMSS never took place. I doubt that the producers really intended us to think that DAF took place before OHMSS and there would be continuity problems anyway if we assume OHMSS took place after DAF (for example, Blofeld recovers pretty well from being smashed into the side of the rig in his pod to say nothing of losing his hair again). So, the only explanation I can come up with is that the producers decided that all Sean movies are their own continuity and OHMSS just didn't exist. Does anyone have any information as to what was actually going through anyone's mind who was involved in making DAF? Did they think this movie was intended to show us Bond following Tracy's death, did they just want us to forget OHMSS (my personal suspicion) or what?

[Jim]

Nowhere, doesn't really need to, it's only another Bond film.

"Most people" / "Everyone I know" would be hard pressed to remember / care whether it came before or after OHMSS.

[MHazard]

I'm afraid those of us who are Fleming fans and were moved by the image of a shattered Bond at the beginning of YOLT (the novel) struggling for redemption and revenge throughout the book want to know if the producers and Guy Hamilton made a conscious decision that "where is he?" and "welcome to hell Blofeld" would be the extent of Bond's response to Tracy's death.

[Judo chop]

What you have pointed out, MHaz, is the very reason why I found it so hard to freak out about the

[David Schofield]

Nowhere, doesn't really need to, it's only another Bond film.

"Most people" / "Everyone I know" would be hard pressed to remember / care whether it came before or after OHMSS.

Ignore Jim's cynicism, MHazard. He's built quite an image and reputation and following as a consequence, playing the laid back, don't take it so seriously type; And he knows it

Personally, as a Fleming fan, I prefer to igore YOLT the movie entirely (which excuses the Bond doesn't recognise Blofeld stuff) and see OHMSS as a direct sequel to Thunderball as Fleming, more or less, intended. OHMSS has no movie sequel, IMO.

To answer your question, EON, I feel, did try write OHMSS out of the canon. In their world of the time, OHMSS does not exist and DAF is a sequel to YOLT. It was many, many years after DAF that Cubby and Co would even discuss, or even play, OHMSS.

[Turn]

I think the biggest (but not only) problem with DAF is that it essentially ignores OHMSS.

This seems to be one of the biggest musings on fan sites these days is to fault DAF for "ignoring" OHMSS. But with a few exceptions, when did many of the other films really follow series continuity that closely?

Okay they mention the killing of Dr. No in FRWL; Bond mentions he had an attache case and Leiter in Jamaica in GF; there are references to DN, FRWL and TB in OHMSS and maybe a couple others here and there; there were numerous references in DAD. Bond meets up with some allies like Leiter or Wade or Zukovsky and such.

There are Tracy references, but done in a way that Bond hasn't forgotten her, but is focused on the present. In all, these are basically stand-alone adventures.

It's pretty clear that Bond is out to avenge Tracy's death at the beginning of DAF. In those terms, I seriously doubt that many people in 1971 really cared to see a whole plotline devoted to that. Connery's return trumped everything else.

Would it have been nice to see a YOLT revenge pic back then? I guess, sure. But I may be one of the few who thinks the precredits of DAF takes care of it just fine on its own terms. And I enjoy the film in that way.

[Cody]

I like the idea of making the Blofeld films' order YOLT - DAF - OHMSS - FYEO.

Blofeld escapes in YOLT, Bond is looking for him at the beginning of DAF, soon after DAF ends it's discovered that Blofeld escaped again. By OHMSS, Bond has been on the hunt for 2 years. Follow OHMSS with Bond visiting Tracy's grave and getting revenge on a neck-braced Blofeld in the FYEO PTS.

[Zographos]

Well, here's the background to DAF from the now defunct 007Forever.com. You can take what you can from it.

The story that brought Diamonds to the screen is clouded in numerous re-writes and a number of different plots.

The first draft, was originally going to start off very differently, and was to do something that seems a bit odd. The pre-title sequence was to be the wedding and death of Bond`s bride, (taken from OHMSS) and was to lead into a different story altogether, after that.

The original drafts also featured a new villian, the twin brother of Auric Goldfinger (who was to be played again by Gert Frobe), and the plot was revenge for his twin. Broccoli and Saltzman liked the idea at first, but later rejected it as being "too far off of the original premise of Fleming`s novels." Also, his revenge was to done by killing Bond`s bride, (tying up loose ends, and such.) Dick Maibaum even had a fantastic line written for Bond`s first encounter with Goldfinger`s twin: "I think you knew my brother Auric. Mother always said he was a bit retarded." The line got dropped when the whole storyline got jettisoned.

The villians from the book, the Spangled Mob, were considered, but not right for the time, so Blofeld returned. Also, many actors were considered for the role of 007, before Sean stepped back into it. Those considered included Burt Reynolds and Roger Moore but the producers flat out rejected Reynolds (because he was American). Reynolds was chosen by MGM/UA execs, trying to cash in on his status as one of the world`s biggest male movie stars (at the time) Well, we all know Moore got the role more than a year later in Live and Let Die.

Another interesting point stricken from the first few drafts was the climactic fight. Originally it was set to take place in a salt mine in Baja California and 007 was somehow supposed to grab hold of a weather balloon that was attached to a fleeing speed boat being driven by Blofeld. When the boat stops, Blofeld turns around to see Bond way up in the sky dangling from the balloon and says:

"Mary Poppins I presume?" He shoots Bond down and the fight begins.

Another draft of the film had the climactic showdown on Hoover Dam. A flottila of U.S. forces had surrounded Blofelds boat in an attempt to corner him and force him into surrender.

When Bond asks Felix for the real merchandise, an extremely sheepish Q is surrounded by customs officers. On the table in front of them is a large wooden leg with shoe and sock on it, open at one end.

FELIX (re: Q): Ask him to do his Long John Silver imitation for you someday. It`s a riot.

Sammy Davis Junior had a cameo in the film. This was cut during post-production:

SAXBY: Hey, I just got a call from Mr Whyte. Understand you haven`t signed your contract yet. What`s the problem?

DAVIS: The money, if you can believe it. Considering your boss is a billionaire, for God`s sake. Do me a favour, Bert. Trundle on up to that penthouse of his and talk to him for me.

SAXBY: You kidding? I run this place for him, and even I haven`t seen Willard Whyte for three years.

Then after Bond has entered the room, Davis says that you could eat off him!

Bond has drinks with Plenty. The waiter presents Bond with a wine. Bond shakes his head sadly in front of an impressed Plenty, and sends it back.

PLENTY: Hey! I didn`t think you could really do that. I bet they charge you for it.

BOND: I thought you were paying.

PLENTY: Well, it was still a very classy thing to do. (suspiciously) Say listen, you aren`t a knight or anything like that are you? I mean-

BOND: A mere commoner, I`m afraid.

PLENTY: (taking his hand) Don`t feel bad. Doesn`t make any difference to me. I`m a Democrat.

The following exchange occurs in bed with Tiffany Case:

TIFFANY: Peter? I think we`ve got a problem.

BOND: You forgot to take your pill.

TIFFANY: Nothing as trivial as that. (pause) You`re not going to tell me where the diamonds are, are you?

At the tail end of the circus sequence, the gorilla rushes out after the agents:

MAXWELL: Let us through! We`re agents!

GORILLA: Agents? (turns, yells off) Hey, wait! We need an agent!

GOONA (to Gorilla): I guess they didn`t dig the act.

When Bond uses the dart gun to sneak up to see Willard Whyte (and instead finds Blofeld), he mutters to himself, genuinely upset, "So help me, Q, if I fall I`ll kill you."

After Whyte tells Bond "I`ll have him steam around in circles for you."

BOND: If you`re ever in London-

WHYTE: After what I`ve seen of the world in the last couple of days? As soon as I get the kitty litter out of my john it`s back to the old-

The tag scene was different in the shooting script:

On board, Kidd and Wint bring the food. Kidd tells Bond that "Monsieur is wanted in the radio room. A telephone call from Mr Willard Whyte."

Bond tells Tiffany that he won`t be a moment, hands money to Kidd and asks him to keep the dinner warm, will you?

Kidd replies, "But Monsieur does not have to pay us for what we are about to do."

The Radio Operator tells Bond that somebody must have played a joke on him. "I could live five times over before Willard Whyte called this tub."

Bond realizes that he`s been had.

Back in the cabin Tiffany is in short nighties, now spreadeagled, tied down to bed, gag in mouth. Hanging above her is the sizzling pot of boiling oil, attached by rope. Wint and Kidd have attached the rope to the handle. They open the door two inches. It tilts - a drop falls. It burns a smoking hole in the pillowcase next to Tiffany`s head.

Bond climbs outside boat, and using a long rope, he lowers himself over the side.

Meanwhile, a maid goes from door to door. Kidd and Wint wait patiently. When Bond - or the maid - comes back and opens the door, Tiffany will be burnt.

Just as the maid is about to open the door, Bond pushes off the side of the ship with his feet and sails through the porthole feet first. He sails in, makes a swipe at the oil pot and rope, misses, lands in a pile at the other side of bed. Kidd locks the maid out just as she`s about to push door open.

The oil pot teeters precariously back and forth.

Bond leaps for the top of the soup toureen, grabs it. Wint yells for Kidd to pull rope. Kidd ranks on rope and the oil pot turns over. Bond passes the upside-down tureen lid over Tiffany`s face, catches the oil, throws it into Wint`s face.

He screams - Bond pushes him hard to one side, impaling him on a sharp point of carved ice Cornucopia, killing him. Kidd has passed skewers through Sterno flame - they are now ablaze. He jumps Bond from rear. Bond twists away, grabs brandy bottle, breaks neck of it on table, and slings brandy at Kidd. Flames shoot up Kidd`s arms - his whole body is on fire. Bond yanks blanket from bed, wraps it around Kidd, smother flames. He picks up the bundle, stuffs it through and out of the porthole, looks down at Tiffany. She`s still bound and gagged, tied to bed, legs spread apart.

[Johnboy007]

Wait, continuity in Bond?

Since when?

[triviachamp]

It's pretty clear that Bond is out to avenge Tracy's death at the beginning of DAF.

Except that when it turns out that Blofeld is alive and well Bond couldn't care less about it despite the murderous rage (well all the rage Connery could muster) he felt at the beginning of the movie toward Blofeld. Oh and Blofeld's fate is unclear at the end of the movie and he is never seen again. Some good writing there!

[lois lane]

It's pretty clear that Bond is out to avenge Tracy's death at the beginning of DAF.

Except that when it turns out that Blofeld is alive and well Bond couldn't care less about it despite the murderous rage (well all the rage Connery could muster) he felt at the beginning of the movie toward Blofeld. Oh and Blofeld's fate is unclear at the end of the movie and he is never seen again. Some good writing there!

Exactly, I think he could turn up at any point in any movie (but not his cat though). Yes it is about time for Blofeld's reappearance.

[Cody]

I'd rather leave him dead at the bottom of the smokestack he was dumped into at the beginning of FYEO.

[triviachamp]

Exactly, I think he could turn up at any point in any movie (but not his cat though). Yes it is about time for Blofeld's reappearance.

There is the pesky problem of McClory's Estate though. And the legacy of Dr. Evil.

[00Twelve]

I was just thinking about another possibly glaring example of how DAF ignores OHMSS. M's attitude towards the apparently distracted Bond at the beginning would certainly be a little callous towards a recent widower.

"May I remind you that Blofeld's dead. Finished. The least we can expect from you, now, is a little plain, solid work."

Surely he wouldn't have said that to James if they'd been remembering the death of Tracy. If I'd been the widower Bond I'd have fired back something to the effect of, "Hey, screw you, Miles. You ever have the love of your life murdered before your very eyes? Hmm? No? 'kay."

[triviachamp]

Don't forget Moneypenny asking Bond for a wedding ring and how it looks like Tiffany is proposing to him at the end.

Then there is the bit about Gloria Hendry signing in as Mrs. Bond in Live and Let Die.

[freemo]

Where Does DAF fit in continuity?

Snuggly in between On Her Majesty's Secret Service and Live and Let Die.

[MarcAngeDraco]

Then there is the bit about Gloria Hendry signing in as Mrs. Bond in Live and Let Die.

Indeed, would have liked to see some sort of reaction from Bond on that one...

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Don't forget Moneypenny asking Bond for a wedding ring and how it looks like Tiffany is proposing to him at the end.

Then there is the bit about Gloria Hendry signing in as Mrs. Bond in Live and Let Die.

I think OHMSS never existed in the world occupied by the 1970s Bond films until Anya brings it up again in TSWLM. By that time, OHMSS had made its American television debut on ABC in 1976 and fans may have started asking questions about it again. Also, there was a "villains" poster for TMWTGG which directly referenced OHMSS's Blofeld and his germ warfare plot though that may've been to emphasize Telly Savalas who had become Kojak by that point.

[col_007]

Don't forget Moneypenny asking Bond for a wedding ring and how it looks like Tiffany is proposing to him at the end.

Then there is the bit about Gloria Hendry signing in as Mrs. Bond in Live and Let Die.

I think OHMSS never existed in the world occupied by the 1970s Bond films until Anya brings it up again in TSWLM. By that time, OHMSS had made its American television debut on ABC in 1976 and fans may have started asking questions about it again. Also, there was a "villains" poster for TMWTGG which directly referenced OHMSS's Blofeld and his germ warfare plot though that may've been to emphasize Telly Savalas who had become Kojak by that point.

http://www.starstore...-golden-gun.jpg

you mean that one

[PrinceKamalKhan]

Don't forget Moneypenny asking Bond for a wedding ring and how it looks like Tiffany is proposing to him at the end.

Then there is the bit about Gloria Hendry signing in as Mrs. Bond in Live and Let Die.

I think OHMSS never existed in the world occupied by the 1970s Bond films until Anya brings it up again in TSWLM. By that time, OHMSS had made its American television debut on ABC in 1976 and fans may have started asking questions about it again. Also, there was a "villains" poster for TMWTGG which directly referenced OHMSS's Blofeld and his germ warfare plot though that may've been to emphasize Telly Savalas who had become Kojak by that point.

http://www.starstore...-golden-gun.jpg

you mean that one

Exactly. Thanks for posting that col_007. I wish they'd make posters like that again.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I think DAF should be tossed into the same category NSNA and the original Casino Royale established.

[RazorBlade]

And I think it kind of fits whereever you want it to fit.

[FlemingBond]

I don't think they completely tossed out OHMSS. After all, Bond is apparently on leave at the beginning of DAF, hunting Blofeld on his own time. Later on in the movie, however, Bond and Blofeld's casual conversations are impossible to believe following the history the have.

[Barry the Saint]

DAF or whatever the next Bond film was going to be following OHMSS was crying out for a tough vengeful Bond (Lazenby would have been perfect to carry on ) after Blofeld (Telly Savalas again)for Tracy.

To make it the way they did and put Charles Grey as Blofeld (the worst of the bunch) was almost panic to take peoples minds off Tracy's death the film before,and take the film in a completely different (and backwards) direction.

Connery was obviously only interested in his '$1m and 2 films of his choice to make' contract and didnt even try to show the hurt that Bond would have had...

This was a real wasted opportunity in the series so on that note DAF can fit in anywhere and stays routed in 19th place in my list even after a recent viewing.

Edited by Barry the Saint, 09 November 2007 - 05:02 PM.

[DaveBond21]

This is a hot topic on the board at the moment, so I thought I'd bump up one of the previous discussions about where DAF fits into the continuity of the Bond world, if indeed there is much of a continuity.

[Brannigan]

I am currently attempting to fit DAF into a spot after OHMSS. Basically how I see it playing out is that the PTS is in retaliation for Tracy's death, and that when Bond meets Blofeld again in Las Vegas both become bent on revenge to the extant that it causes them to lose site of the original mission to some extant.

BTW those parts posted by Zographos seem over the top even for DAF. I know that exchanges between Plenty and Bond at dinner obviously exist as does the comments by Sammy Davis Jr, but the rest of the lines seem rather stupid.

[Guy Haines]

If OHMSS had been a hit movie on the scale of, say, Thunderball, and if George Lazenby hadn't thrown away the role of a lifetime through bad advice, then the follow up film might have been more of a direct sequel, imo. As it is, OHMSS did not exceed box office expectations and the film makers were left looking for a new Bond, who turned out to be same as the old Bond!

It's a good question to ask, where DAF fits in continuity. It has Bond going after Blofeld, but apart from the pre title credit scene it doesn't seem like Bond is out to avenge Tracy - which is curious given that the real Blofeld is very much alive and well later in the film. Surely Bond would have regarded Blofeld's survival after his "death" at the start of the film as unfinished business? Instead the conversation between them, both in the Las Vegas and oilrig scenes, is like two sparring partners in a game of oneupmanship. (In fairness, there's a slight element of that in the banter between Bond and Blofeld in the torture room scene in the novel YOLT, but by the time Bond has throttled Blofeld he's clearly having his revenge at last.)

Looking at Bond's attitude towards Blofeld in the main part of the film it does seem as if the events of OHMSS had never happened. Now, was this an attempt, deliberate or unintentional, to put aside OHMSS as a one off, particularly now that the "real" Bond, Connery, had returned? It certainly seems like it to me. Whatever the film makers intended in the way they produced, wrote and directed the film, the marketing certainly emphasised that Connery was back, with little mention of the previous film. One example. In 1972 I saw DAF at the local cinema, and bought a souvenier programme. (I still have it.) Most of the programme, obviously, concentrates on DAF, but there are pages on Bond's previous leading ladies and arch adversaries. Conspicuous by their absence are photographs of Diana Rigg and Telly Savalas, with only a cursory mention of Rigg and no mention at all of Savalas in the text.

Where does DAF fit in? Straight after the film YOLT, quite possibly.

Edited by Guy Haines, 29 December 2010 - 07:38 AM.

[jrcjohnny99]

If OHMSS had been a hit movie on the scale of, say, Thunderball, and if George Lazenby hadn't thrown away the role of a lifetime through bad advice, then the follow up film might have been more of a direct sequel, imo. As it is, OHMSS did not exceed box office expectations and the film makers were left looking for a new Bond, who turned out to be same as the old Bond!

It's a good question to ask, where DAF fits in continuity. It has Bond going after Blofeld, but apart from the pre title credit scene it doesn't seem like Bond is out to avenge Tracy - which is curious given that the real Blofeld is very much alive and well later in the film. Surely Bond would have regarded Blofeld's survival after his "death" at the start of the film as unfinished business? Instead the conversation between them, both in the Las Vegas and oilrig scenes, is like two sparring partners in a game of oneupmanship. (In fairness, there's a slight element of that in the banter between Bond and Blofeld in the torture room scene in the novel YOLT, but by the time Bond has throttled Blofeld he's clearly having his revenge at last.)

Looking at Bond's attitude towards Blofeld in the main part of the film it does seem as if the events of OHMSS had never happened. Now, was this an attempt, deliberate or unintentional, to put aside OHMSS as a one off, particularly now that the "real" Bond, Connery, had returned? It certainly seems like it to me. Whatever the film makers intended in the way they produced, wrote and directed the film, the marketing certainly emphasised that Connery was back, with little mention of the previous film. One example. In 1972 I saw DAF at the local cinema, and bought a souvenier programme. (I still have it.) Most of the programme, obviously, concentrates on DAF, but there are pages on Bond's previous leading ladies and arch adversaries. Conspicuous by their absence are photographs of Diana Rigg and Telly Savalas, with only a cursory mention of Rigg and no mention at all of Savalas in the text.

Where does DAF fit in? Straight after the film YOLT, quite possibly.

That just about sums it up.
DAF clearly ignores OHMSS and fittingly, I choose to ignore DAF.
Probably the worst of the series and the biggest wasted opportunity in the whole canon.

[SPECTRE ASSASSIN]

Personally I think DAF was YOLT's direct sequel and came before OHMSS.

After Blofeld was using plastic surgery in DAF, I figured James Bond got the idea from him and changed his appearance in OHMSS. (This shouldn't need to explain why in the movie, because James Bond was the world's #1 marked man anyway)

I think there was another post earlier that mentioned OHMSS doesn't have a resolution for Bond until years later in FYEO.
There you have it, I wasted 10 minutes typing this.

[Doctor Whom]

This was inspired by musings considering recent posts on the DAF was it that bad thread. I think the biggest (but not only) problem with DAF is that it essentially ignores OHMSS. Which leads me to the question of whether DAF was intended to fit in continuity with OHMSS. The only two explanations for DAF essentially ignoring the death of Tracy are either: 1. Its supposed to take place before OHMSS (I guess that means after YOLT, since in YOLT Bond meets Blofeld for the first time) or 2. The Sean movies have their own continuity and we are to assume that OHMSS never took place. I doubt that the producers really intended us to think that DAF took place before OHMSS and there would be continuity problems anyway if we assume OHMSS took place after DAF (for example, Blofeld recovers pretty well from being smashed into the side of the rig in his pod to say nothing of losing his hair again). So, the only explanation I can come up with is that the producers decided that all Sean movies are their own continuity and OHMSS just didn't exist. Does anyone have any information as to what was actually going through anyone's mind who was involved in making DAF? Did they think this movie was intended to show us Bond following Tracy's death, did they just want us to forget OHMSS (my personal suspicion) or what?

Basically, except for a few modest continuity nods (e.g. mentioning the death of Dr. No in FRWL), the Bond films (prior to the Craig era) were essentially stand-alone movies. I doubt the producers ever considered serializing them, as that really wasn't done in those days (q.v. other movie series such as Tarzan, Charlie Chan, etc.).