51 replies to this topic

[Andrew]

Alright, so who else here is a fan? I certainly am and I find it to be the most entertaining (and frustrating) show on television and quite possibly my favorite of all time. I have been watching since the second season and in honor of the arrival of the end I have started to watch it again from the beginning (I just finished Season 2).

Here's the short synopsis of the next (and final) two episodes that HBO has released...

"Blue Comet" 85
Written by Matthew Weiner and David Chase
Directed by Alan Taylor
June 3, 2007
Loyalty to Tony reaches a critical stage for those within his sphere of influence; a case of mistaken identity has grave consequences.

"Made in America" 86
Written by David Chase
Directed by David Chase
June 10, 2007
The final chapter in the saga of the Soprano family.

I just love the title of the final episode. As with most episode titles I'm sure it will have a double meaning: perhaps citing the location of production for some item (perhaps some stolen goods?), perhaps citing someone being born and raised in America, or perhaps "made" in the sense that the Mafia uses it (I'm sure that if you watch the show or know a thing or two about LCN you know what this means). There's also some speculation that perhaps it may have to do with this terrorist/FBI angle that seems to have come up in recent episodes.

Alright so who dares to make predictions as to what will happen in the unpredictable world of Tony Soprano's family and Family?

[Loomis]

I'm a major fan of THE SOPRANOS, having bought all the DVDs and watched all the seasons numerous times. It is one of the best things in the world.

As rotten luck would have it, though, I live in the United Kingdom, and, being also a movie/showbiz geek who uses the internet daily, I think there's very little chance of my being able to make it spoiler-free till whenever the heck the final season appears in this country.

I already know that

Spoiler

Tony has whacked Christopher

, which was something I'd been expecting, but not until the final episode. I imagine that

Spoiler

Tony will turn government witness, even though it's against everything he's ever stood for

. Whatever happens, I have absolutely no doubt that

Spoiler

Tony will live

.

BTW, there are a couple of Bond/SOPRANOS connections. Maria Grazia Cucinotta appears in an episode, and Lee Tamahori directed an episode prior to DIE ANOTHER DAY. Any other 007 connections I'm missing?

[Andrew]

I imagine that

Spoiler

Tony will turn government witness, even though it's against everything he's ever stood for.

I've considered this, after all you do have to remember the title of the show and that...

Spoiler

sopranos sing

especially with some developments during this season...

If you want to know since you're over the pond

Spoiler

In the episode "Walk Like a Man" Tony gives Agent Harris (now supposedly working on the FBI CTU instead of RICO)the names and numbers of two Muslim men who have frequented the Bing that are apparently involved in terrorist activity. The reason for Tony doing this is that Harris promises a letter detailing Tony's assistance that will be placed in Tony's FBI file for a judge to consider in sentencing should Tony ever be convicted of a crime. Perhaps this is just Tony's entry into the world of informant.

Whatever happens, I have absolutely no doubt that

Spoiler

Tony will live

.

Come on Loomis, as a fan of the show you should know to never be certain of anything!

Anyway IF...

Spoiler

Tony does die I think it would happen in the last five minutes and would be done by someone unexpected, kinda like the end of LAYER CAKE. That's just what I think would happen though. I don't expect Tony to die (I don't think we'd have seen him shot at the beginning of Season 6a if that was Chase's intent) but instead end up isolated and alone (ala Michael Corleone at the end of GF2).

Lee Tamahori directed an episode prior to DIE ANOTHER DAY

And if I remember correctly his episode was quite good!

What are some of your favorite episodes Loomis (and anyone else that would like to share)?

[MarcAngeDraco]

An absolutely wonderful show. I rather hate to see it end, but then I suppose it couldn't go on forever...

[Loomis]

What are some of your favorite episodes Loomis (and anyone else that would like to share)?

I don't have a favourite, since there are simply too many great episodes to even try to weigh them against each other. That said, I was recently working my way through season one (yet again), and thought that THE LEGEND OF TENNESSEE OF MOLTISANTI (funny - while the episodes all have titles, for some strange reason the title is never given onscreen; you'd think it would be helpful for people catching reruns to put the title during or after the opening credits, but oddly enough they don't bother) was an absolutely perfect episode. The acting, the dialogue, even the choices of music - all unsurpassably superb. You'd really think you were watching real people. Chris' writers' block discussion with Paulie is a highlight (incidentally, anyone know what's the jazz music featured in this scene? I've been trying to find out, but have drawn a blank so far), as is Dr Melfi's family dinner. The real gem, though, is when Tony launches into a passionate defence of the Italian-American while he eats with Carmela, Meadow and A.J. Just hilarious.

http://en.wikipedia....ssee_Moltisanti

But there are many, many other great, great episodes. WHITECAPS, the season four finale, springs to mind as particularly amazing, but then they're all fantastic. I used to think only the first and second seasons were truly great, but have changed my mind - how, for instance, did they manage until season five without Steve Buscemi? Well, rewatch the first four seasons, and there's your answer. No, the whole thing's terrific. Forget Bond - if I had just one work of filmed entertainment to take with me to a desert island, it'd have to be THE SOPRANOS. Everything is there. It will be watched and marvelled at for the next two hundred years.

[Loomis]

If you want to know since you're over the pond

Spoiler

In the episode "Walk Like a Man" Tony gives Agent Harris (now supposedly working on the FBI CTU instead of RICO)the names and numbers of two Muslim men who have frequented the Bing that are apparently involved in terrorist activity. The reason for Tony doing this is that Harris promises a letter detailing Tony's assistance that will be placed in Tony's FBI file for a judge to consider in sentencing should Tony ever be convicted of a crime. Perhaps this is just Tony's entry into the world of informant.

Hmmm.... but, I don't think Tony

Spoiler

would consider it informing. Remember the bit in (I think) season five where he's going ballistic about a TV news report about terrorism? (And then goes ballistic at the guy at the Bing who tells him: "That's why you gotta live for today.") He hates and fears those guys, and would gladly help bring them down.

Still, you may be right - it may make it easier for Tony to spill information that's a lot closer to home. And good point about sopranos singing!

IF...

Spoiler

Tony does die I think it would happen in the last five minutes and would be done by someone unexpected, kinda like the end of LAYER CAKE. That's just what I think would happen though.

I'd hate a

Spoiler

LAYER CAKE ending, especially if it's the Russian (although I really doubt we'll see him again).

That said, this reminds me of an interesting bit of speculation I read on the net: remember that

Spoiler

when Silvio shoots Adriana, the camera pans away and we don't actually see her getting killed? There's a theory that Silvio spared her life because he was/is working for the Feds. I think Silvio would be a brilliant choice for a rat, because he's the one person Tony seems to trust absolutely, and the last person the audience would ever suspect.

[Andrew]

Hmmm.... but, I don't think Tony

Spoiler

would consider it informing. Remember the bit in (I think) season five where he's going ballistic about a TV news report about terrorism? (And then goes ballistic at the guy at the Bing who tells him: "That's why you gotta live for today.") He hates and fears those guys, and would gladly help bring them down.

Spoiler

Well I think that it just shows that Tony is willing to work with the Feds (and Agent Harris, someone that he has come to respect). Perhaps now that they see that Tony is willing to co-operate on some level they can reel him in, offer him a deal that is better than the letter that Harris offered and he'll "sing".

That said, this reminds me of an interesting bit of speculation I read on the net: remember that

Spoiler

when Silvio shoots Adriana, the camera pans away and we don't actually see her getting killed? There's a theory that Silvio spared her life because he was/is working for the Feds. I think Silvio would be a brilliant choice for a rat, because he's the one person Tony seems to trust absolutely, and the last person the audience would ever suspect.

Spoiler

I've never liked the Adriana lives scenario but it would be shocking to see Sil as a rat because he's someone that's so loyal to Tony. There's some speculation on the web that Paulie may be a rat or at least considering it but since you haven't seen 6b I won't mention much. That being said, most people dismiss the possibility of Paulie being a rat because of the supposed "No rat" clause that Tony Sirico has in his contract.

My absolute favourite episode is when Pussy and Chris get lost in the woods in the snow chasing that Russian.

Tony (on Phone)'He was in the interior ministry'
Pussy (on phone)'What?'
Chris 'what did he say?'
Pussy 'He's an interior designor for s sake!'

or some such, can't quite remember but it had me in stitches

That scene was with Paulie and Chrissy; Pussy was sleeping comfortably with the fish at that point

[Loomis]

I've read the speculation that

Spoiler

Paulie may be a rat, but I don't think the character would ever work with the Feds. He seems to me even more old school about ratting than Tony, not to mention too dumb to see that squealing may be his best option. But Sil, though.... not that I reckon Sil will sing, 'cause this just seemed like fairly wild internet speculation, but he's always been an enigma, and smart enough to adapt to situations. Interestingly, waaaaaaaay back in season one (which I've been rewatching), Paulie and Sil have a conversation about Tony's revelation that he sees a shrink, and Paulie is all "old school" and shocked about it (even though he saw a psychiatrist too!), yet Sil is cool and philosophical and tells him that they must let any misgivings slide because of Tony's powerful position.

But if

Spoiler

Sil

turns out to be a rodent, it's perhaps telling that

Spoiler

in season 6A he really freaks out in quite an unusual way when that guy (forget his name) gets whacked in the heat of the moment for making jokes about Vito's homosexuality, almost with an air of "Aw, ****, I'm with the Feds now and I can't afford to get mixed up in random mayhem any more". He seems strangely worried for someone so used to killing. Still, I may well be reading too much into this bit.

[TortillaFactory]

The Russian's not coming back. David Chase said so, and he has yet to lie directly to the fans like that.

My personal favorite episode is "The Knight in White Satin Armor." The usage of "I Saved the World Today" by the Eurhythmics at the end is particularly good.

STEALTH EDIT

Spoiler

when Silvio shoots Adriana, the camera pans away and we don't actually see her getting killed?

I noticed this at the time and it has always made me wonder. That's the best explanation I've heard yet...I don't think any other main characters' deaths have been panned away from like that.

[Andrew]

Wow, what an episode!

I really don't want it to end...

[Andrew]

Anyone else catch last nights episode? If you didn't HBO replays it about every night. Be sure to catch it, it's vital to the plot and may be one of my favorite episodes of the whole show. Season 6b is shaping up to be one of my favorite seasons.

You're really missing out, Loomis

[Loomis]

Well, I've resigned myself to knowing in advance how everything plays out, but I know I'll love the new season whenever I'm finally afforded the chance to watch it, just as I loved CASINO ROYALE and ROCKY BALBOA despite subjecting myself to all the spoilers beforehand. THE SOPRANOS is so brilliant and so rich in entertainment value that I find it's impossible to really appreciate a season after just one viewing - there are always plenty of funny lines that somehow you don't catch first time, for instance, and loads of great character moments you don't truly savour when you're watching it just to follow the story and to know what happens next.

[Andrew]

THE SOPRANOS is so brilliant and so rich in entertainment value that I find it's impossible to really appreciate a season after just one viewing - there are always plenty of funny lines that somehow you don't catch first time, for instance, and loads of great character moments you don't truly savour when you're watching it just to follow the story and to know what happens next.

That's a pretty accurate statement. This show has a re-watchability factor that very few shows (or even films) have. To add to those two things that you said above, there's also loads of symbolism and foreshadowing that this show packs that you may not pick up on the first time around.

HBO re-aired all of 6b last week (well up to "The Blue Comet" at least) and one striking use of foreshadowing I saw was...

BEWARE SEASON 6B SPOILERS AHEAD

Spoiler

When Tony and Carmela are visiting Bobby and Janice's lake house in "Soprano Home Movies" they are making small talk and mention the fact that a child that they knew drowned in a swimming pool while no parents were watching and I remembered thinking "What significance does that have?" when I saw the episode for the first time. Now move a couple episodes forward to "The Second Coming" and we see AJ, virtually ignored by his parents (not watching if you will) as he's suffering depression, trying to kill himself (unsuccessfully) in the pool.

Another interesting point is that the pool where AJ attempted suicide was the same pool where Tony's beloved ducks lived in the first season...draw from that whatever symbolism you wish.

We also saw Tony draining the pool last night....hmmmmm....now there's no home for the ducks should they return any time soon...

God, I love this show.

So Loomis, have you spoiled yourself in regards to last nights episode, "The Blue Comet"?

[Andrew]

Tonight's the night, folks.

"Made in America" 86
Written by David Chase
Directed by David Chase
June 10, 2007
The final chapter in the saga of the Soprano family.

[Andrew]

It's over...

[Andrew]

If Chase was looking to make an ending that will have people talking forever he sure accomplished that.

Nothing to do with the ending but...

Spoiler

I loved seeing Tony and Paulie in all the locations (the Bing, the pork store) all alone, these are the places that used to be filled with Tony's guys. Also the scene between T and Junior was tragic. Junior has forgot about "this thing of ours"...just like the public.

But back to the ending...

Spoiler

Perhaps that symbolizes Tony's death? Perhaps as soon as Meadow walked in someone clipped him? After all, just like in the conversation they flashed back to last week between T and Bobby: "You don't even know it when it happens."

[Mike00spy]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension. Why should we be suprised?

[Jeff007]

First off, I'm glad Phil Leotardo got whacked. There will be people out there that will hate this ending but I think everyone watching stood up wondering if they accidently hit there remote and panicked thinking they turned off the tv. (okay I did) David Chase is a genious and he's done it again. He's left it open ended for a possible spin off years later. Who knows? Carlo will be spilling his guts in court but I'm sure Tony's lawyer would get him out of it. However, if those shady characters in the diner whack him then, yes, it's over. Maybe we will see HBO's The WALNUTS one day.

[Andrew]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

[MarcAngeDraco]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

Did anyone really expect things to be all tied up in a nice little package?...

[Mike00spy]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

Did anyone really expect things to be all tied up in a nice little package?...

I've seen every episode since the beginning. I have been watching. I have seen a show die a slow death. After last night's episode, I'm glad it is over. How is this a perfect end to the show where we don't know the fate of the characters? Sorry, David Chase used to be a genius before he phoned it in the last two seasons. Why should fans not be told what happens to Sil? Why should we have had to endure that last scene? If Chase wanted them to get whacked, then fine- SHOW IT. If he didn't, then fine, let us know they weren't. It is not my job to fill in the gaps- that is his- he is the writer of the show.

As for the episode, what was looking like the end to the mob war, became an hour of mostly nothing. The war was resolved too quickly, and Phil was killed as an afterthought. I'm shocked Chase left that scene in- it would have fit his mold so perfectly. Even before that, it lacked tension. They were all having a wonderful time at the funeral. They returned to their lives way too quickly. It is a shame- after last week, we were told things would get dark and serious. Tony sleeping witht he shotgun? Great image. What became of it? Nothing. Instead we get scenes that have nothing to do with anything, like always. What place did AJ letting the car catch fire have to do with anything? Sure, as a midseason scene, it works ok, I guess. In the last episode?

Sorry, if you think that is a great ending, then why not add that to some of our other favorite films and series. I'm sure Casino Royale would have been better off to play a black screen afer Bond got poisioned.

Edited by Mike00spy, 11 June 2007 - 12:51 PM.

[Loomis]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

Did anyone really expect things to be all tied up in a nice little package?...

Exactly. Strikes me that the sort of people who think this is a copout ending are the sort of people who think LOST IN TRANSLATION was ruined by the audience's inability to hear what Bill Murray whispers to Scarlett Johansson. Or the sort of people who think Moneypenny and Q should have been in CASINO ROYALE.

A discussion of the ending on AICN:

http://www.aintitcoo...comment_1557263

[zencat]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

Agreed. I loved it. And talk about tension...my palms were sweating. I knew two things could happen. Everyone is killed. Or not. And then a third thing happened. Total surprise and shock.

BTW, have you heard the POV death theory? That Tony is popped at this moment. He never saw it coming or even knew it happened (hence, neither do we). This is what it would be like. Just sudden black. How many people have we seen die like this on this show? Just a gun to the skull and it's over. Well, it's over. I think this is an excellent theory.

Now it's time to cancel my HBO.

[zencat]

Someone on Defamer also posted this. Very nice:

There's a breakdown from one poster on a board about all the "coincidental" people in the restaurant - black guys like those who tried to bump off Tony in past seasons; a trucker, like those the mob guys intimidated so often; the Italian guy going to the restroom Michael Corleone-style; Boy Scouts; a woman who looked eerily like Janice; etc. - and how the clientele was sort of a microcosm of the paranoid world Tony lived in. The editing of shifty glances, the nail-biting over something as seemingly innocuous as parking a car, brought the viewers into that. Dead or not, it gave a feeling of the constant state of paranoia Tony lives in. While a neat, tidy bow would have been nice, there's no way it could have been wrapped up to suit everyone, so Chase decided to suit no one. In its own sadistic way, it was really the only way the show could have ended, I think, and it will be an episode that will be remembered and analyzed for decades and decades to come.

[Professor Dent]

I was one of those people who got caught staring at my satellite box thinking the signal dropped & was getting ready to yell but then the credits started rolling. Looking back at the episode, I like the ambiguous ending -- was Tony whacked or is his life just moving on? The door is open. I wasn't expecting all of the loose ends to be tied-up with a pretty bow on the package anyway. I've been a fan since the beginning & I'm glad to see the show finally wrap. Although, the tough part I have in keeping HBO is that besides Curb Your Enthusiasm, I'm not into any of their shows anymore.

[Turn]

Horrible ending to an episode that lacked tension.

Seriously? I nearly had a heart-attack!

I can understand why people didn't like it but I loved it. Perfect end to the show and I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by something like that unless they really haven't been watching.

Agreed. I loved it. And talk about tension...my palms were sweating. I knew two things could happen. Everyone is killed. Or not. And then a third thing happened. Total surprise and shock.

BTW, have you heard the POV death theory? That Tony is popped at this moment. He never saw it coming or even knew it happened (hence, neither do we). This is what it would be like. Just sudden black. How many people have we seen die like this on this show? Just a gun to the skull and it's over. Well, it's over. I think this is an excellent theory.

Now it's time to cancel my HBO.

I liked it as well. Understated. If you watch any of the previous seasons, it's always the episode before the season finale where it all comes down, and the finale is rather low key. The same applied here.

I think a lot of people go into series finales expecting too much. Anybody who knows Chase should have expected he wouldn't do the obvious. A lot of people have been complaining about closure. Not me. I prefer and ending to where you wonder what happens and can draw your own conclusions.

[Andrew]

Here's an interesting piece of information from a cast member...

Spoiler

Matt Servitto, who played FBI Special Agent Harris, said Chase briefly kept the camera rolling after what amounted to Tony's final moment on screen - and that the extra footage appeared to clearly spell the end for the supreme Soprano.

"[Tony's daughter]Meadow got into the diner, sat down . . . The menacing 'Members Only' jacket-wearing man at the counter was a little bit more in play, and I think she's sitting there with the family kind of all together . . . and all of a sudden, the menacing man gets up, starts walking toward their booth. End of show," Servitto said.

"The scene cut as the [menacing] guy was advancing toward [Tony], as if he was about to shoot Tony. It was, I think, less ambiguous that Tony was going to get shot."

http://www.nypost.co...eiss.htm?page=0

[Loomis]

I imagine that the unused endings (I think at least three were shot) will be on the DVD.

A "proper" ending would have just meant short-term satisfaction - sure, people would have talked about it for a day or two, but over time many would have started to say: "So they took seven seasons just to get to Tony being hauled off by the Feds? Big deal."

If Tony had been shown getting away with everything, it would have annoyed those who'd always felt he should die or be arrested, and if they'd shown him being killed or caught, it'd have disappointed those who were rooting for him.

This way, everyone basically gets what they want. You want to believe Tony's skull was one fraction of a second away from a bullet that had just been fired from a gun with a silencer? Fine, there's nothing there to tell you that you're wrong. You want to believe life just carries on as normal for the Soprano family? Sure, you can do that, too.

As for David Chase's take on what actually happens, fans will be looking at the tea leaves and reading into alleged symbolism for years to come. The man is clearly a genius (but we knew that already, 'cause he created THE SOPRANOS).

[Andrew]

The man is clearly a genius (but we knew that already, 'cause he created THE SOPRANOS).

It's amazing that people have suddenly started to disagree with this because they didn't like the ending. Apparently "genius" to them means serving the audience something on a silver platter.

[Mike00spy]

The man is clearly a genius (but we knew that already, 'cause he created THE SOPRANOS).

It's amazing that people have suddenly started to disagree with this because they didn't like the ending. Apparently "genius" to them means serving the audience something on a silver platter.

Wow. Apparantly, Chase is also God, b/c he never makes any mistakes as well.

I've been reading the reactions on this board and other places, and I have to say it is majority negative for good reason. Those that like it, well, I believe it is a case of "thinking in reverse."

I'm sure everyone was on the edge of their seat during that final scene (including me for the only time in the episode) and NONE of you were thinking, "You know what, I don't want to know what happens. I think the screen should go black right about now."

Everyone was wondering what would happen and were already thinking ahead as to how that would make them feel.

But the scene ends that way, and some people start thinking in reverse. They reconcile what they have seen and learn to like it.

As for "well, no one would be happy" that is a cheap cop-out excusing Chase of any critique. I've heard the same thing about the new Star Wars prequel trilogy, and it didn't work there.

I don't need a nice bow around the Sopranos. I like how there were still things going on in his life that he had to deal with. I dont feel that asking for the fate of the 4 major characters to be "wanting a nice bow." I, along with many, would have liked to see what he had in mind for Tony either way- dead or alive. If it didn't matter if Tony lived or not, then why did we watch all these years?

After 8 years, Chase didn't have to resort to some cheap watercooler stunt. All he had to do was tell the story of Tony Soprano. He didn't. And because Chase had enough disgust for his audience to not tell them, then I don't care anyone as well. And it is a shame since I've seen every episode since it first aired. Oh well.