67 replies to this topic

[Dr.Mirakle32]

BB was a complete restart of a dying franchise, which hadn't had a film in eight years, where as CR is still part of the same continuing franchsie, just with a continuity update.

BB features an entirely new cast and crew, and does as much as it can to seperate itself from the previous films in the series, both in tone and story.

In a long running series like the 007 films, it is hard to do the same thing.
While CR is structured as a reboot, it really isn't so drastic. Other than it showing Bond becoming a double-oh and meeting Felix Leiter for the first time in 2006, it is clear that this is still part of the same series. There is still the classic Monty Norman Bond theme, a pre title sequence, the iconic gunbarrel scene (although in a slightly different context) a series of stylized credits (with the familar ALBERT R. BROCCOLI'S EON PRODUCTIONS presents... as IAN FLEMING'S JAMES BOND 007 in...) and Judi Dench as M (I know Bond originally meets her for the first time in GoldenEye, but she was obviously kept for audience familiarity.)

Like I said, Casino Royale is clearly part of the same franchise and series, just with a tweaked continuity update after the over the top sci-fi extravaganza that was DIE ANOTHER DAY. A low key thriller after a sci-fi epic has happened before in the series: OHMSS came after YOLT, LALD came after DAF, FYEO came after MR.

Batman Begins on the other hand is to Batman and Robin, what Tim Burton's Batman was to the 1966 Adam West film: No connection other than a use of familiar characters. BB is a complete restart. Sure there are nods to previous films ("I'm Batman!" the black suit and grappling gun were created for the '89 film, and even the alliterative title sounds like a prequel to the Burton/Shumacher series,) but the film itself does as much as it can to seperate itself from the previous entries in the franchise.

While BB is surely the truer "reboot," the better film is no doubt CR.
I thought CASINO ROYALE was a MUCH beter film and surpassed BEGINS on pretty much every level. BB was good, but Nolan took it a little bit too seriously, tried to make a serious drama rather than an action film, and made most of the action scenes too clausterphobic.
I also hated the annoying brown tint to the entire film. I really hope he swicthes the photography in the next film. It was well shot, but I always imagined Batman's world being grey and blue, not brown and tan. The music was good and definitely moving, but it lacked a dynamic theme such as the ones written by Danny Elfman or Shirley Walker.
Plus it seems that BB was ashamed of it's comic book roots. Where's the art-deco/gothic Gotham city? There it is simply a brightly lit big city that can be found in every state.
It may sound like I am ripping on BB, but I still like it quite a bit. the casting was nearly perfect and it was a very well made film, although it well never top the Tim Burton original in my book.

CR on the other hand is proud of it's cinematic and literary heritage, going back to the 1960's filmaking style of the early Terrence Young/Guy Hamilton films, and bringing to tone of the story back to Fleming, while delivering a relevant, and modern spy-thriller. The photography is beautiful and colorful like the early Bonds; the action scenes and stunts are some of the best seen in years; the musical score is without a doubt David Arnold's finest achievement; and the script actually has heart, brought out by Paul Haggis' fine dialogue. It is certainly not a faithful adaptation of Fleming's novel, but the spirit of the early novels is kept intact, even though the story isn't.

The truer "reboot": Batman Begins
The better film: Casino Royale

Maybe Martin Campbell should take over when Nolan's done, and Paul Haggis could write the script....

Anyway, these are my views, but which film do you fans prefer?

Edited by Dr.Mirakle32, 29 May 2007 - 04:52 AM.

[Harmsway]

While BB is surely the truer "reboot," the better film is no doubt CR.

I agree, though I think BEGINS is much better than you give it credit for.

I also hated the annoying brown tint to the entire film. I really hope he swicthes the photography in the next film. It was well shot, but I always imagined Batman's world being grey and blue, not brown and tan.

Have you read BATMAN: YEAR ONE, one of the more definitive Batman comics? That is painted mostly in browns. I can think of a number of other Batman comics that have taken the same color scheme as well (heck, BATMAN '89 was largely shot in browns when it comes down to it). Furthermore, it's only certain parts of Gotham City that are brown and tan... there's plenty of blue and grey in the batcave and in Asia, and that makes sense, seeing as a lot of cities (especially crumbling, dirty ones, like Gotham) have that brownish vibe.

Plus it seems that BB was ashamed of it's comic book roots. Where's the art-deco/gothic Gotham city? There it is simply a brightly lit big city that can be found in every state.

It's not ashamed of them at all - in fact, it is arguably more faithful to the source material than Burton ever was. Nolan just felt that since the very comic-booky approach had already been done with the Burton films, it was time to go for a more "realistic" approach to do something different than had been done before. And there's plenty of comic book precedent for a Gotham City like the one Nolan presented. Gotham City hasn't always been an art-deco, gothic fantasyland.

[mrsbonds_ppk]

They did an outstanding job with Batman Begins to me.

Edited by mrsbonds_ppk, 29 May 2007 - 04:55 AM.

[red_grant]

CR was the much better film.

[sharpshooter]

Batman Begins is an incredible film. It brought back Batman in a big way.
I like both characters so it is hard to say which is better. I like them both equally.

[stamper]

They both are good. But different.

BB was a necessary reboot to a killed movie franchise, for a character with incredible merchandising potential.

CR was a necessary reboot to an old and tired movie franchise, who was in danger of crashing down if nothing was done and things kept going the way they were ie more DAD like movies would have no doubt resulted in Schumasher land and crash for the 007 series. Just forget about the artistic and look at the Money : Schumacher first was an incredible moneymaker / success, while the second, who is just a copy of the first, tanked.

Hail EON for realising they were going to crash. And not offering us another DAD.

[Trip Aces313416]

this is tough one to call given that BEGINS has a character based on a COMIC BOOK. I'll put them on an even levels with just a SLIGHT EDGE to BEGINS because Nolan brought humility and realism to a world that no other batman director has done. I wasn't expecting a huge action movie. In fact I was pleased with Nolan's idea of actually exploring Bruce Wayne's psyche,actually showing us thru Wayne's his motivation of dressing up a bat and in turn using a central theme of using FEAR as a weapon.....

........
........
..............but take note, i'm calling this a tie

[RazorBlade]

I agree that both are amazing films. I voted for CR because, well, look at where we are. If I were on a batman board... You know I guess I'd still vote for CR. And I do own the DVD of CR but not BB. The vote for CR is based on my emotional reaction to the film. For BB my reaction wasn't as strong but I do have an appreciation for that film and what Nolan tried to do.

[Mr Twilight]

We haven't seen how either Batman or Bond continues, so apart from that it's two very different "reboots". But while I prefer CR before Batman, I would have liked CR to be more like Batman...kind of.

[Loomis]

On the basis that it's A., more of a reboot, and B., was more of a franchise-rescuer, I voted for BATMAN BEGINS. CASINO ROYALE is the superior film, though.

[Mr Twilight]

Yes, your'e absolutely right, Loomis! Batman Begins saved the franchise from beeing a silly cartoon to be true action as it should be. I haven't cared to see the last two Batman-movies before BB. BB was a big step forward. CR wasn't a franchise-rescuer in that matter.

[HawkEye007]

That's a tough one. I have been a James Bond fan and a Batman fan for as long as I can remember.

I look at it as, which reboot was more necessary? Joel Schumacher had pretty much killed the Batman franchise after the crap fest that was Batman & Robin. Batman Begins was needed to bring it back to a more realistic feel, make it more gritty like the current feel of the Batman comics.

As far as CR goes, yes, the franchise needed to get away from the sci fi bonanza that was DAD. An earlier poster mentioned that after earlier sci fi entries (YOLT, MR) a more down to earth film came out (OHMSS, FYEO). I think that if CR would have been just the next film after DAD, keeping the same cast, things would have been fine. CR was however a welcome breath of fresh air.

Needless to say, I am looking forward to The Dark Knight and Bond 22 in 08!

[Gabriel]

It's a heck of a difficult choice to make. Both reboots were necessary, but BB more so than CR. Batman was in creative and financial doldrums, Bond was merely creatively slack prior to the reboots. I like them both very much, but, since they're both obviously part of a larger arc, the sequels are going to be as relevant to a final decision.

I'm probably forced to go for Batman Begins, narrowly, because I felt the Venice scenes in Casino Royale unnecessarily dragged out an otherwise well-paced film.

That said, I absolutely loved CR, so feel a bit guilty voting against it!

[dodge]

'twas far easier to vanquish the memory of DAD Brozza than of the nippled bat suit. So thumbs up for BB. But I concur completely: CR was the far better film.

[Bucky]

my vote goes to casino royale. i loved both films and easily put them both in my favorite films although i did not really care for katie holmes in batman while it is hard for me to pick a weak link for casino royale.

i am eagerly awaiting the sequels for both of these films, 2008 is going to be a great year

[marktmurphy]

Begins was the purer 'reboot' in most ways, but not in that it fails to make sense of the main character - although Bond is a less startling figure he is more believable and his actions and those of people around him are much more understandable than in Begins.

Begins was the most reboot-y of the two, but CR was the better film, and that's all it comes down to really, isn't it?

[Harmsway]

BB was a necessary reboot to a killed movie franchise, for a character with incredible merchandising potential.

Interesting, though, that Nolan's franchise doesn't seem at all concerned with merchandising... Refreshing, even, given that most superhero films become these juggernauts of advertising and toys.

[Dr.Mirakle32]

BB was a necessary reboot to a killed movie franchise, for a character with incredible merchandising potential.

Interesting, though, that Nolan's franchise doesn't seem at all concerned with merchandising... Refreshing, even, given that most superhero films become these juggernauts of advertising and toys.

Apparently, you never walked into a Wal-Mart/Target/Toys R Us back in summer of '05. Some KB Toys stores are STILL trying to clear out marked down BB product.

Edited by Dr.Mirakle32, 29 May 2007 - 04:57 PM.

[sharpshooter]

Indeed. Batman is not as friendly as Spidey and Superman are.

[Harmsway]

BB was a necessary reboot to a killed movie franchise, for a character with incredible merchandising potential.

Interesting, though, that Nolan's franchise doesn't seem at all concerned with merchandising... Refreshing, even, given that most superhero films become these juggernauts of advertising and toys.

Apparently, you never walked into a Wal-Mart/Target/Toys R Us back in summer of '05. Some KB Toys stores are STILL trying to clear out marked down BB product.

Oh sure, BEGINS toys were produced (though the sales were terrible... BEGINS wasn't aimed at the younger crowd) and some promotional deals were made, but it wasn't like a SPIDER-MAN 3 onslaught.

[HildebrandRarity]

To answer the question: CR is no more a re-boot tha LALD, TLD or GoldenEye.

I don't consider it a re-boot...just a movie which replaces a successful actor with a new one with the added kicker of the availability of the rights to make the first Bond novel.

[Dr.Mirakle32]

BB was a necessary reboot to a killed movie franchise, for a character with incredible merchandising potential.

Interesting, though, that Nolan's franchise doesn't seem at all concerned with merchandising... Refreshing, even, given that most superhero films become these juggernauts of advertising and toys.

Apparently, you never walked into a Wal-Mart/Target/Toys R Us back in summer of '05. Some KB Toys stores are STILL trying to clear out marked down BB product.

Oh sure, BEGINS toys were produced (though the sales were terrible... BEGINS wasn't aimed at the younger crowd) and some promotional deals were made, but it wasn't like a SPIDER-MAN 3 onslaught.

I don't know about that. From what I've seen, the amount of Spider-Man 3 merchandising clogging the pegs is about on the same level as the Batman stuff two years ago.

Indeed. Batman is not as friendly as Spidey and Superman are.

Nonsense! Batman has always been more popular among kids than Superman, and probably moreso than Spider-Man. With the exeption of the BB merchandise, Batman toys have always outsold Superman product (which always does poorly.)

[Blonde Bond]

Though I voted for CR, I thought that both re-boots were fan-frikkin'-tastic!

Batman was literally resurrected, like a bat from the hell, while Mr.Bond, Mr.James Bond was given first aid, after that terrible accident, that happened a few years ago.

As a movie, I enjoyed CR more, and thought that in places BB, although a really great movie, dragged a little bit. It was a swell job from Nolan to bring realism in Batman, and I dont blame him for it. Although, I have to agree with the poster who said, that the film seemed a little claustrophobic. And I only mean in the fight scenes.

Now dont get me wrong, I know what the director was trying to do with the fights of BB, trust me. I know my Batman well enough, to know the asnwer for that. But...
But I would have liked to see a more detailed hand to hand combat, seeing how they put Bale through some martial arts training, and I would've liked to see the moves a little better. Batman Begins is, on my list, the 2nd best Batman flick. Right after Burton's Batman Returns. Both are good films in their own right. And even though, that I'm a Keaton's fan, I cant argue, that the current cast; Batman / Bruce Wayne, Gordon etc. was far closer to their comic counterparts, than ever before.

But, when it comes to enjoyment, I do enjoy CR more. Hence, I voted for CR.

Ask me that qustion again after year or two. That is, if I'm still around

Edited by Blonde Bond, 29 May 2007 - 07:02 PM.

[Orion]

Dont make me choose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HildebrandRarity]

Dont make me choose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Darth Sidious to Anakin Skywalker: "You must choose..."

[Orion]

alright myallegence to Bond and my love of Daniel Craig's acting sais Casino Royale, but Christian Bale is an incredible actor and Christopher Nolan is my favourite director and and and and ah my heads gonna explode

[Harmsway]

But I would have liked to see a more detailed hand to hand combat, seeing how they put Bale through some martial arts training, and I would've liked to see the moves a little better.

I think they should have shown more detailed combat in a few places in the film. I loved the chaotic-ness of the fights at the docks and in Arkham Asylum, but the duel with the ninjas and then Ra's should have been pretty visible. There was no need for them to be so claustraphobic (and if you watch the special features, the choreography really is lovely).

Batman Begins is, on my list, the 2nd best Batman flick. Right after Burton's Batman Returns. Both are good films in their own right.

I like BATMAN RETURNS a lot, but I don't think it's a particularly good film. It's an absolute mess. It's a beautiful mess with lovely moments, but a mess nonetheless. No narrative focus, Batman becomes a supporting character, no real thematic development... it's just a series of random events happening one after the other (sometimes without any explanation - like the Penguin miraculously obtaining the batmobile plans, or the penguin army showing up out of nowhere). As I said, though, I like it. Mainly because of the performances, all of which are excellent.

[Blonde Bond]

and if you watch the special features, the choreography really is lovely).

That' exactly what I was talking about. The dvd extras show how well they had choreographed the fights, and how Bale went through some extensive training for the role. Because of that, it's shame they didnt show more of it in the movie. I hope their focus for the next movie stays realistic, and that they keep the "batman comes out of nowhere, beats a handful of thugs and then disappears" aspect, but still give some of the fight more time to evolve, showing us some bat-tastic fight moves.

And the main reason why I like Returns over Begins, is because I love Tim Burton's interpretation of freaks that roam in the Gotham City. That was and is more close to my heart. He keeps the dark aspect of Batman, but instead of making a true to the comic books movie, he makes a Tim Burton movie. And I liked the marketing aspect; the bat, the cat, the penguin. They're all freaks. One was born as a freak of nature, and then there's two other freaks who have to wear masks, and who have some major psychological issues. That's the reason why I like Keaton in the role. By the looks of him, you couldn't really tell, that he is the Batman. But when he dons the suit... He's a freak! That's the beauty of Burton's Batman.
A gothic fairytale for the adults. Or children. But not for marketing department, as they set to do the horrible Batman Forever and Batman & Robin, because they could not market Burton's films for small children, that want their Happy Meals with some bat-toys...

Edited by Blonde Bond, 29 May 2007 - 10:28 PM.

[bond 16.05.72]

Where BB was a new start for the Batman franchise with a whole new direction and maybe a truer re-boot but those who keep trying to link CR to the previous 20 are clearly deluded.

With the exception of Dench and she's playing a different M to the one in Brozzer's entries, there is no connection to the films before.

Get with this please, Daniel Craig's tenure is a new series. The fact that EON was still making this film may make it not so separated but Warner Bros was still making BB and it still contained characters from the previous Bat series and Dark Knight will contain characters used by Burton & Schmacher.

I would say I couldn't separate the 2, I like them just as much as each other and are just glad they are the jump off point for 2 series which look likely to enter an exciting and new phase in their history.

I find the fact that CR clearly doesn't acknowledge the previous 20 very refreshing, I only wish some of would learn to let go of what went before and embrace the brave new direction James Bond 007 is now taking, because it back to the beginning and no one will argue it isn't.

No Connery, Lazenby, Moore, Dalton & Brosnan, as far as this series is now concerned they never were Bond. Daniel Craig is Bond and thats it.

[Blonde Bond]

I know where you coming from. But I must say, that we shouldn't and we are not asked to forget the last 20 Bond flicks or the 5 previous actors, that portrayed James Bond.

Sure, it's a whole new continuum, but the character is still the same, and we cant change the fact that the previous films exist. They do. They're not just part of the same timeline. But they all were Bond movies, and so were all the actors James Bond.

Batman took a nosedive into the muddy swamp waters, and produced two horrible sequels, that were marketed for McDonald's customers and let's be honest here, for those that love rubber suits with nipples on them. The series died, and had to be resurrected after so many years, of being legally dead.

Bond in the other hand, took a one giant mistep, and the franchine was needed to get back on the track. So, it's back to basics, a whole new timeline. But it's still feels very familiar, and there's hasnt been that many years from the last movie. Bond franchine wasnt dead. It just needed a fresh new beginning. Batman franchine was dead for years.

Edited by Blonde Bond, 29 May 2007 - 11:42 PM.