29 replies to this topic

[JimmyBond]

Just for fun, let's say you were the composer who worked on CR. The score is exactly how it is now, but during a test screening the audience decided the Bond theme wasnt in it enough. Going against the point of only having it show up until th eend, the Producers ask you (the composer) to rework the score so it has more Bond theme (think TND).

So, where and when would you use the Bond theme?

[plankattack]

Arnold has used the Bond theme almost to the point of exhaustion in the action sequences of previous films. With CR showing Bond attaining some of his elements for the first time, I'd put the theme alongside those moments rather than the action sequences:

- Killing Dryden
- Poker game at the Ocean Club
- Sitting in the Aston in Montenegro
- Donning the tux (hinted at in the movie)

Barry definitely did a better job than Arnold in rationing out the theme (the latter can overdo it) but then as I always (to the point of nauseum, I know) Barry was always able to use the theme song melody as punctuation - something Arnold hasn't always had the luxury of doing (TND, DAD, for example).

[Johnboy007]

I'd probably throw in a few more subtle bars (mainly the bass line) of it here and there. The introduction of the Aston is one.

Assuming, of course, they changed their mind on holding off on the Bond theme.

[Mike00spy]

I think that the power of the score needs to be mentioned- I'm sure you will get more responses like the ones above. They seem to be thinking the same thing- add a few pieces here and there, but don't drastically change the score. It is Arnold's best effort, and its great to finally have the theme song be in the movie's score- first time since TLD?

Compare that to GE, where the need for the Bond theme was so great that they had to have someone re-write the tank sequence.

[K1Bond007]

- Bond in the Mondeo. A very down to earth rendition, not overly done. The scene would be kind of akin to OHMSS's opening, but not as big, more subtle. Of course it would be better had he been in a nicer car, say an AudiTT or something.

or

- Reinstate Bond & Vespers drive in the Aston and then do the above.


And that's it. I wouldn't add it anywhere else for fear of making the scene too cliche and taking the danger out of the scene. The theme really defuses danger and lets everyone know that Bond is just going to kick a lot of and make it out without barely a scratch. You don't need that.

[Flash1087]

I'd want a slow, strings only version when he gets the Aston, and maybe have a few bars of it here and there during the embassy fight.

[Dr. Noah]

I would explain to the producers that this film is about a man, James Bond, becoming 007, and to use the theme before he becomes that superagent blows the idea behind my soundtrack, and more importantly, blows the concept of the entire film. He's ALREADY that guy if the soundtrack is following him everywhere.

(Then of course they fire me, but I still have my dignity.)

[stamper]

You know what ? Preview audiences can kiss my butt ! Leave the movie as is !

[jaguar007]

Arnold has used the Bond theme almost to the point of exhaustion in the action sequences of previous films. With CR showing Bond attaining some of his elements for the first time, I'd put the theme alongside those moments rather than the action sequences:

- Killing Dryden
- Poker game at the Ocean Club
- Sitting in the Aston in Montenegro
- Donning the tux (hinted at in the movie)

Barry definitely did a better job than Arnold in rationing out the theme (the latter can overdo it) but then as I always (to the point of nauseum, I know) Barry was always able to use the theme song melody as punctuation - something Arnold hasn't always had the luxury of doing (TND, DAD, for example).

To be fair to Arnold, he did use "Surrender" theme quite a bit in his TNDs score.

[Mr_Wint]

I would explain to the producers that this film is about a man, James Bond, becoming 007, and to use the theme before he becomes that superagent blows the idea behind my soundtrack, and more importantly, blows the concept of the entire film. He's ALREADY that guy if the soundtrack is following him everywhere.

(Then of course they fire me, but I still have my dignity.)

I guess you can argue about this, but wasn't he James Bond from the first day he was born? Is the theme only for the "agent" James Bond and not for the man himself? Is he less James Bond just because he's less experienced? If you think that the theme is only for an experienced agent, then, at what point does he deserve the theme? When he's recruited to the Royal Navy? When he first kill someone? When he for the first time fly up in the air with a jet-pack? I dont think there is an easy answer to this, and that's probably what the producers would point out (before they fire you).

[Dr. Noah]

I would explain to the producers that this film is about a man, James Bond, becoming 007, and to use the theme before he becomes that superagent blows the idea behind my soundtrack, and more importantly, blows the concept of the entire film. He's ALREADY that guy if the soundtrack is following him everywhere.

(Then of course they fire me, but I still have my dignity.)

I guess you can argue about this, but wasn't he James Bond from the first day he was born? Is the theme only for the "agent" James Bond and not for the man himself? Is he less James Bond just because he's less experienced? If you think that the theme is only for an experienced agent, then, at what point does he deserve the theme? When he's recruited to the Royal Navy? When he first kill someone? When he for the first time fly up in the air with a jet-pack? I dont think there is an easy answer to this, and that's probably what the producers would point out (before they fire you).

For the agent. It's what the audience recognize as the music they will hear when he walks into a dangerous situation or performs some miraculous stunt. The song starts with the low melody to suspense, the jangling guitar heralds danger, and it all builds to something loud, brassy and incredibly cool.

If they show him at birth, do they play the Bond theme when his head pokes out? Taking his first poopee on a full-size toilet? Having his braces removed? Shaving for the first time? God knows it would get pretty annoying.

I thought it was pretty smart how Arnold transformed "You Know My Name" incrementally into the Bond Theme by the end of the story. It felt like the first Bond soundtrack with an idea behind it that worked with -- and even added to -- the film.

[Mr_Wint]

I would explain to the producers that this film is about a man, James Bond, becoming 007, and to use the theme before he becomes that superagent blows the idea behind my soundtrack, and more importantly, blows the concept of the entire film. He's ALREADY that guy if the soundtrack is following him everywhere.

(Then of course they fire me, but I still have my dignity.)

I guess you can argue about this, but wasn't he James Bond from the first day he was born? Is the theme only for the "agent" James Bond and not for the man himself? Is he less James Bond just because he's less experienced? If you think that the theme is only for an experienced agent, then, at what point does he deserve the theme? When he's recruited to the Royal Navy? When he first kill someone? When he for the first time fly up in the air with a jet-pack? I dont think there is an easy answer to this, and that's probably what the producers would point out (before they fire you).

For the agent. It's what the audience recognize as the music they will hear when he walks into a dangerous situation or performs some miraculous stunt. The song starts with the low melody to suspense, the jangling guitar heralds danger, and it all builds to something loud, brassy and incredibly cool.

If they show him at birth, do they play the Bond theme when his head pokes out? Taking his first poopee on a full-size toilet? Having his braces removed? Shaving for the first time? God knows it would get pretty annoying.

I thought it was pretty smart how Arnold transformed "You Know My Name" incrementally into the Bond Theme by the end of the story. It felt like the first Bond soundtrack with an idea behind it that worked with -- and even added to -- the film.

Ok, so for you it is the "agent" Bond. But when this film starts, Bond is an agent... he's even a 00-agent after the pre-titles. Did I miss something? In LTK Bond wasn't an agent but they still played the Bondtheme. OHMSS ended with the Bondtheme despite Bonds recent resignation.

[Dr. Noah]

Ok, so for you it is the "agent" Bond. But when this film starts, Bond is an agent... he's even a 00-agent after the pre-titles. Did I miss something? In LTK Bond wasn't an agent but they still played the Bondtheme. OHMSS ended with the Bondtheme despite Bonds recent resignation.

That was a big problem with the Dalton films. He was great, but they went to such great pains to convince us that Bond was exactly the same as he was the Moore era's films. Goofy stunts, Q and Monepenny in sitcomy office scenes, same Moore era director more interested in stunts than story. Dalton himself said they gave him too little in the role to make his own.

They started to try something different and chickened out. It's too bad they DIDN'T try to be more different in LTK. It SHOULD'VE seemed different than the other films.

They should've made a fresh break, like they did with CR. Dalton could've made a film every bit as good as this one, if given the proper support.

[00Twelve]

But what about DN and FRWL and TND when Bond was just walking around and the Bond theme plays? No imminent action, no dangerous situation, just him in his offices or on the street.

[Dr. Noah]

Yeah, but in those movies it was NEW. Walking through an airport and getting spied on was suspenseful then, as was checking a hotel room for bugs. He was definitely acting like an agent then.

EDIT: In the first two it was new. In TND it was annoying.

[Mr_Wint]

Your argument fails to convince me. The theme is for the man no matter what situation he is in and no matter how experienced he is, IMHO.

When it comes to Casino Royale I have mixed feelings. It's obvious that the whole Bond-Begins thing was more or less a marketing ploy as no one would notice it if two of M's lines was removed. Bond does pretty Bond-ish things already from the start of the movie and he's far from being a beginner. In many scenes, the Bond-theme wouldn't be out of place.

On the other hand, David Arnold over-used the theme in DAD so it's refreshing to hear a score without it. I'm not very fond of Arnolds CR-score but its good that he at least tried to do something different. The theme loses its impact if it is used too much.

[00Twelve]

See, this is why I disagree with you on this, Dr. Noah. No 00-agent gets the "James Bond Theme" except James Bond. If it were about the agent, and not the man, then it would be acceptable for every other 00 in a picture to employ the "James Bond Theme" as well. But clearly the theme was meant for one man. James Bond.

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

[Dr. Noah]

Your argument fails to convince me. The theme is for the man no matter what situation he is in and no matter how experienced he is, IMHO.

I can hear the soundtrack now:

First dump on an adult pottie, age 2: "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Plays a tree in school play, age 6: : "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Develops acne, age 12: : "Duh---Duuh--BA-BA--BA-BA-BAAAA; Duh--Duuh--Du-duh-duuuuh....."

[Dr. Noah]

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

Your argument might hold water if the makers of the films didn't obviously disagree with you, as in CR.

[Mr_Wint]

Your argument fails to convince me. The theme is for the man no matter what situation he is in and no matter how experienced he is, IMHO.

I can hear the soundtrack now:

First dump on an adult pottie, age 2: "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Plays a tree in school play, age 6: : "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Develops acne, age 12: : "Duh---Duuh--BA-BA--BA-BA-BAAAA; Duh--Duuh--Du-duh-duuuuh....."

If they had any of these three scenes in a James Bond movie, do you think that the music would make any difference at all? I dont think so.

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

Your argument might hold water if the makers of the films didn't obviously disagree with you, as in CR.

Just because the film-makers did it doesn't mean that it is right, nor does it mean that we cant discuss it. They create, we criticize.

[Dr. Noah]

Your argument fails to convince me. The theme is for the man no matter what situation he is in and no matter how experienced he is, IMHO.

I can hear the soundtrack now:

First dump on an adult pottie, age 2: "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Plays a tree in school play, age 6: : "Duh---Duuh--Duuuh--Duh; Duh--Duuh--Duuuh--Duh..."

Develops acne, age 12: : "Duh---Duuh--BA-BA--BA-BA-BAAAA; Duh--Duuh--Du-duh-duuuuh....."

If they had any of these three scenes in a James Bond movie, do you think that the music would make any difference at all? I dont think so.

You seem to think it does.

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

Your argument might hold water if the makers of the films didn't obviously disagree with you, as in CR.

Just because the film-makers did it doesn't mean that it is right, nor does it mean that we cant discuss it. They create, we criticize.

Didn't they say that at Craignotbond.com?

The whole point of the friggin' movie is that he IS BECOMING the 007 we know. Playing the theme before he becomes that guy wouldn't mean anything. Judging by $550 mil worldwide and 95% positive reviews, they were obviously right.

[Mr_Wint]

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

Your argument might hold water if the makers of the films didn't obviously disagree with you, as in CR.

Just because the film-makers did it doesn't mean that it is right, nor does it mean that we cant discuss it. They create, we criticize.

Didn't they say that at Craignotbond.com?

The whole point of the friggin' movie is that he IS BECOMING the 007 we know. Playing the theme before he becomes that guy wouldn't mean anything. Judging by $550 mil worldwide and 95% positive reviews, they were obviously right.

What do you mean with "right"? You dont think the film would gross "$550 mil" (actually it grossed $594 mil) if the Bond-theme had been used more? And what does 95% positive reviews means? You wouldn't be a Bondfan if you listened to the critics so why start now?

The website Craignotbond, the reviews and the worldwide gross has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. Try to keep your replys on a less childish level if you want me to continue this discussion with you.

[Dr. Noah]

What do you mean with "right"? You dont think the film would gross "$550 mil" (actually it grossed $594 mil) if the Bond-theme had been used more? And what does 95% positive reviews means? You wouldn't be a Bondfan if you listened to the critics so why start now?

That's absolute BS. The good Bond films have always gotten good reviews. If a Bond film stinks (you know, goes through the motions, replaces stunts for character and story, plays the Bond theme constantly), they get bad reviews and deserve it.

The website Craignotbond, the reviews and the worldwide gross has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. Try to keep your replys on a less childish level if you want me to continue this discussion with you.

Of course reviews and gross matter in this discussion. The question hinges on the premise that preview audiences didn't like the movie. My response was that they did, along with everyone else, which is why I cited the worldwide gross and the reviews. Critics liked the movie, too. One of the things they liked about it was the big reveal at the end where Daniel Craig's Bond steps into frame, says the famous line, and the theme plays. It's extremely effective.

But if the you play the theme throughout the movie, you wreck the buildup, and you destroy its effectiveness. There's a reason they don't use it until the end, it's a very calculated strategy, and they would've been unfaithful to the premise of the film if they had used it.

Why the hell do I care if I continue this discussion with you or not? Jimmy asked a question, I answered what I'd do. I'd tell them they were destroying the concept of the film. That's my honest answer.

You asked me why I felt that way, I answered. Continue the discussion or don't. Big deal.

Childish? We're on a fan forum!

[00Twelve]

As far as my earlier post goes, we just need a well written and blocked scene where Bond checks his room to the tune of the "Bond Theme."

Your argument might hold water if the makers of the films didn't obviously disagree with you, as in CR.

Your argument might also hold water if the "James Bond Theme" was used for more 00 agents. As it is, it is exclusively used for the man James Bond. Yes, he's an agent, and if he wasn't saving London or the world, then he wouldn't have a theme. You're right. But first, it's only used in the action scenes as a reminder that this is James Bond, and no matter if he's sinking a tanker or checking for bugs, nobody does it better. Second, it's your opinion that it's annoying in TND. I found it pretty refreshing, especially after GoldenEye's score. And I'm not any more alone in my opinion than yourself.

By the way, the action was already done in CR and it was just Craig calmly walking up to face Mr. White when the theme really started to kick in. The other times that we got bits of the theme were the dinner jackets scene and his arrival to Nassau. So no, they didn't totally "obviously" disagree. But it's okay, I'm not trying to antagonize you.

[Dr. Noah]

Your argument might also hold water if the "James Bond Theme" was used for more 00 agents.

Hey, if EON decided to make films about different 00 agents, they probably would.

By the way, the action was already done in CR and it was just Craig calmly walking up to face Mr. White when the theme really started to kick in. The other times that we got bits of the theme were the dinner jackets scene and his arrival to Nassau. So no, they didn't totally "obviously" disagree. But it's okay, I'm not trying to antagonize you.

Yeah, that's what I mentioned, above. YKMN evolved gradually into the Bond Theme. I lijked those touches. They did it beautifully. If they had Craig entering airports and inspecting his hotel room for bugs with that theme running all through the film, that last scene would have lost a lot.

LOL -- you aren't antagonizing me -- I like talking about this stuff!

[Mr_Wint]

That's absolute BS. The good Bond films have always gotten good reviews. If a Bond film stinks (you know, goes through the motions, replaces stunts for character and story, plays the Bond theme constantly), they get bad reviews and deserve it.

You cant seriously mean that. So we should just count the number of positive reviews for each Bondfilm and then all agree on one long ranking-list for all films? Why have a forum then? I dont think it's possible because each fan has a totally unique opinion. And you cant blame them for that. A good story and deep characters isn't everything. Films are far, far, more complex than that! In general, I would say that the film-critics doesn't care much for Bondfilms and yet I've watched these films over and over again because I find them to be fun high-quality entertainment-films. Its an extremely underrated film-serie, if you ask me. I think it's fun to read other reviews but I would never let them influence my own opinion.

Back to topic; I'm glad they haven't used the theme for other 00-agents. A main theme is normally written for the main character and not a title or rank.

[Dr. Noah]

You cant seriously mean that. So we should just count the number of positive reviews for each Bondfilm and then all agree on one long ranking-list for all films? Why have a forum then?

That's not what you said. You wrote: "You wouldn't be a Bondfan if you listened to the critics so why start now?"

I think most critics would tell you the first few were great, and a majority of them think CR is the best since that time.

[Dr. Noah]

BTW, I'm not arguing how Guy Hamilton or Lewis Gilbert used the Bond theme. I'm arguing that it was used in this film to tell the audience he was becoming the 007 they know. (And as a sidenote that it was horribly overused in some of the other Bond films.)

[00Twelve]

Well, this much we know. The Bond theme is for a man, James Bond, who wouldn't warrant having his own theme if he weren't a dangerous man who would save the world.

And as I get older (I guess that's the reason...), I too think that the Bond theme could be more effective if used sparingly. We might not expect him to be so much of an invincible icon if his theme wasn't blaring every time he does something amusing. And I think he's much more interesting as a human being who does impossible feats and gets his best efforts highlighted occasionally by the theme than a walking image who has a guitar riff and trumpets accompanying him into the shower and as he hails a cab. It's okay every now and then, in subdued form, like the dinner jackets track in CR, but yeah, if we had the theme used as it was in Dr. No (nearly every time he's on screen in the first 15 minutes), it would certainly sound a little awkward, and definitely like overkill.

I think I just negated the point of the thread.

[Publius]

I agree with Dr. Noah. The Bond theme is for the Bond we know (that is, loved, lost, balls beaten, and learned from it all), and he doesn't arrive until he snipes Mr. White at the man's own villa.

Anyway, if I had to include it more, I'd use it for the gunbarrel, when Bond "loses it all", and when Bond "wins it all". The former because it'd at least coincide with his becoming a double-oh (and since it's not too hard to seque the theme into You Know My Name), the latter two because it'd make a nice dichotomy and be all the sweeter in the second case. But really, I'd rather personally slap each and every member of the test audience who demanded more theme. And then Joel Siegel a few dozen times for good measure.