29 replies to this topic

[doubler83]

Just watched Casino Royale today for the first time since getting it on DVD, and I have to say, the train scene between Bond and Vesper gets better with each viewing.

The dialogue is just dynamite, so mature (especially after Jinx's "that's a mouthful" or words to that effect). Haggis, Purvis and Wade should be commended for a most excellent scene.

[Judo chop]

I haven

[Bondfiend]

Yes, the train scene is very fun to watch. I love the way Vesper just throws her bag down and sits down quickly, looking at Bond very challengingly. They carry on with a slight touch of venom on their tongues, but both Craig and Green are so gifted and intense in their performances that they always make me smile when I see that scene. I love it when Bond says, "Skewered...one sympathizes." I don't know why it's so funny, but it is.

[bond_girl_double07]

It kind of recalls a few of the scenes in FRWL between Connery and Tanya.. obviously she's errr friendlier than Vesper, but I like the sense of recalled elegance (train travel is so much more romantic, don't you think?)

It's a nice throwback to the novels as well.. I always loved Fleming's description of the trains that Bond takes (complete with incredibly gourmet meals, expensive liquor, and beautiful women)..

[Qwerty]

Couldn't agree more. This is how you introduce a Bond girl into the film. My favourite scene of the film and it rivals my all time favourite scene in the series: Tracy rescuing Bond in [film=99]On Her Majesty

[Roebuck]

Good decision on somebody's part to ditch the scene with Mr Bliss (the professional gambler Bond replaces) that was to immediately precede the first Bond/Vesper meeting. Something about the style of it felt to me like a holdover from the Brosnan films. Far better that they lost it and established Vesper that little bit sooner.

[bill007]

[quote name='doubler83' post='725117' date='10 April 2007 - 13:15']Just watched Casino Royale today for the first time since getting it on DVD, and I have to say, the train scene between Bond and Vesper gets better with each viewing.

The dialogue is just dynamite, so mature (especially after Jinx's "that's a mouthful" or words to that effect). Haggis, Purvis and Wade should be commended for a most excellent scene.[/quote]
I agree with you whole-heartedly here, doubler83. This scene just screams "BOND!"

[quote name='Judo chop' post='725122' date='10 April 2007 - 13:31'](Just waiting to finish the basement and home theater. Everyone

[parp]

It's one of my favourite scenes too. When Vesper leaves and Bond stands and smirks to himself I was crying out for him to mutter 'bitch' like he does in the book. I think that would have topped the scene off beautifully. I wonder if they shot it that way then got nervous that audiences might find it too harsh?

What does everyone else think?

[Qwerty]

It's one of my favourite scenes too. When Vesper leaves and Bond stands and smirks to himself I was crying out for him to mutter 'bitch' like he does in the book. I think that would have topped the scene off beautifully. I wonder if they shot it that way then got nervous that audiences might find it too harsh?

What does everyone else think?

I think the scene works outstanding as it is. We have the "bitch is dead" line later on in the film that also works well enough.

[JimmyBond]

I read somewhere else here that Craig plays the scene as if Bond falls in love with Vesper the moment he lays eyes on her. That's why he's so playful during the whole conversation, and why the scene works so well.

[parp]

Can you think of any other scenes in the whole series that come close to that?

The only ones that spring to mind are Bond and Tracy in OHMSS and Bond and Kara in TLD.

I don't think any others have even come close.

[Stephenson]

Although the tone is completely different, Bond meeting Tiffany Case is filled with some great lines and a little intrigue. Very fun, IMHO. I always felt Bond's relationship with Kara was a little confused (angry face one minute, all mushy the next).

[HawkEye007]

This has to be one of the best intro scenes for the leading lady in my opinion. Bond meeting Tracy in OHMSS is the only other one I can think of that comes close.

[bond_girl_double07]

It's one of my favourite scenes too. When Vesper leaves and Bond stands and smirks to himself I was crying out for him to mutter 'bitch' like he does in the book. I think that would have topped the scene off beautifully. I wonder if they shot it that way then got nervous that audiences might find it too harsh?

What does everyone else think?

I hadn't thought of it, but I think calling Vesper "bitch" twice might have been a little harsh.. I like that he just smirked at the end of the scene, it was more playful (plus we all know he was thinking it anyway hehe)

[dodge]

The best for the above...and another reason. The writers and director played with our expectations here, quite cunningly. There are echoes of course of North by Northwest, also FRWL. But the train scene is rather short in comparison...there's no romance (just the beginning of one)...no fight. What we get, in very short order, are great dialogue and real insights into character. Then, when we're charmed and caught up--bye bye, train!

A parallel to this, for me, was the car chase scene. Everyone expected more. It was all the more shocking for ending so soon--with those record-breaking car rolls.

[Santa]

I think I would have liked him to say 'bitch' as she walks away on the train but in a completely different form to 'the bitch is dead', so we can see the contrast as his feelings have developed and changed. So, for example, on the train he would have muttered 'bitch' under his breath but with a half smile of sorts, acknowledging she can match him for playful banter rather than be bowled over by his charm and sophistication, and the smile with it to acknowledge that he finds that challenge attractive. I think it would be a nice match with the completely different tone of how he calls her a bitch in that line, cold and bitter. Am I making any sense?

[Judo chop]

I think I would have liked him to say 'bitch' as she walks away on the train but in a completely different form to 'the bitch is dead', so we can see the contrast as his feelings have developed and changed. So, for example, on the train he would have muttered 'bitch' under his breath but with a half smile of sorts, acknowledging she can match him for playful banter rather than be bowled over by his charm and sophistication, and the smile with it to acknowledge that he finds that challenge attractive. I think it would be a nice match with the completely different tone of how he calls her a bitch in that line, cold and bitter. Am I making any sense?

Too much, as expected.

Depending on how he played the scene, we might not even make the connection between the first playful 'bitch' and the second, cold 'bitch'. They'd be existing in two separate universes of character and mood.

In fact, the way the 2nd bitch works, it's a passing thought anyway. It's not the climax in the film that it is in the book - the film's climax obviously being "Bond, James Bond".

So, my thought is that he could have used a 2nd "bitch" and we'd be none the wiser. I'm not overly disappointed that he didn't - just saying that he could have without it sounding gimmicky.

[doubler83]

He should have just said "phwor".

[LadySylvia]

The dialogue is just dynamite, so mature (especially after Jinx's "that's a mouthful" or words to that effect). Haggis, Purvis and Wade should be commended for a most excellent scene.


One of the problems I've always had with the Brosnan films . . . especially with DIE ANOTHER DAY, were the sexual innuendos being spouted in every other scene. In a way, I felt sorry for Pierce Brosnan, Halle Berry and Rosamund Pike for being forced to use such silly dialogue in their scenes. Although Toby Stephens was spared the innuendos, he still had to deal with other bad dialogue.


Thank goodness we were spared the bad innuendos in CASINO ROYALE.

[Hass]

The reason the "bitch is dead" line has very little impact in the film is for a couple of reasons.

One - it's not the climax and two Craig delivers it in a fairly throwaway style.

The other reason is that it's the first time that Bond refers to her a "bitch".

In the book he calls her "bitch" before he meets her, directly after he meets her and then calls her a "silly bitch" when he thinks she's gotten herself kidnapped.

Even when he was falling for her she was still "the bitch".

It makes the conflicting feelings Bond has for her all the more confronting at the end.

So I'd have loved to see a bitch reference in the train scene.

Cheers.

[Four Aces]

Now that I am back in the US. I'll have to get the DVD ASAP. Right after I finish the taxes this weekend.

4A

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

The dialogue is just dynamite, so mature (especially after Jinx's "that's a mouthful" or words to that effect). Haggis, Purvis and Wade should be commended for a most excellent scene.

I think Vesper's waaaay too forward "perfectly formed " quip is the most lascivious line uttered by a Bond girl second only to Halle and Ole Man Brosnan's shameless oceanfront smut talk.

The dinner scene after Bond has cleaned out Le Chiffre's funds is much more to my liking.
There's a tranquil romantic ambience about the scene and the dialogue is understated and organic.
The rat-a-tat-tat train repartee sounds contrived to me, sounding like what it more than likely actually is: the forced machinations of an overtaxed screenwriter's imagination.

Edited by Roger Moore's Bad Facelift, 14 April 2007 - 07:07 PM.

[Dr. Noah]

I think the dialogue's terrific. I wouldn't want too many "tranquil" scenes. The words in the train are overcharged because they're supposed to be people who can think ahead of each other like that. That's what makes a more tranquil scene work later. I'll take an "overtaxed" Oscar-winner like Haggis working on my character scenes any day of the week.

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

I think the dialogue's terrific. I wouldn't want too many "tranquil" scenes. The words in the train are overcharged because they're supposed to be people who can think ahead of each other like that.

Bond's powers of intuition have always served him well, but never to the ludicrous Conan Doyle-like levels on display here.
The way Bond and Vesper are able to sum each other to a T upon first glance simply rang false for me.
Since the film's focus is largely placed elsewhere, the scene is one of the few that attempts to demarcate Vesper from the countless other sharp-tongued stand-offish buxom heroines Bond has wooed of late (Jinx, Wai Lin, etc).

However, as a viewer, I require a little more than some warmed-over, sexualy-charged tit-for tat to believe this is truly the girl that molded Bond's hard-hearted worldview forever.

That's what makes a more tranquil scene work later. I'll take an "overtaxed" Oscar-winner like Haggis working on my character scenes any day of the week.

And that is complteley your prerogative, sir

[Dr. Noah]

I think the dialogue's terrific. I wouldn't want too many "tranquil" scenes. The words in the train are overcharged because they're supposed to be people who can think ahead of each other like that.

Bond's powers of intuition have always served him well, but never to the ludicrous Conan Doyle-like levels on display here.

Who the heck are you kidding? Bond knows every wine, flower, butterfly collecting... The only thing he doesn't know anything about is diamonds in DAF -- and that's supposed to be a joke. NOW you question him knowing everything?

Intuition and having a "tell" is the theme of the entire friggin' movie, and you're upset that the "best poker player in the service" is so good at it? THAT'S WHY HE'S GOING TO THE POKER GAME.

The way Bond and Vesper are able to sum each other to a T upon first glance simply rang false for me.
Since the film's focus is largely placed elsewhere, the scene is one of the few that attempts to demarcate Vesper from the countless other sharp-tongued stand-offish buxom heroines Bond has wooed of late (Jinx, Wai Lin, etc).

However, as a viewer, I require a little more than some warmed-over, sexualy-charged tit-for tat to believe this is truly the girl that molded Bond's hard-hearted worldview forever.

That's why they have scenes AFTER the train scene...They don't friggin' fall in love at first sight. There supposed to be at odds with each other.

That's what makes a more tranquil scene work later. I'll take an "overtaxed" Oscar-winner like Haggis working on my character scenes any day of the week.

And that is complteley your prerogative, sir

Gee, thanks!

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

Who the heck are you kidding? Bond knows every wine, flower, butterfly collecting... The only thing he doesn't know anything about is diamonds in DAF -- and that's supposed to be a joke. NOW you question him knowing everything?

Vast difference between being proficient in various areas of the field and miraculously knowing a person's lineage and academic background upon meeting.
Sherlock Holmes, maybe, but not James Bond.
The scene is really a poor attempt to compensate for a screen relationship that's never properly developed.
As if somehow, thru miraculously reading each other, the viewer will accept on face value that this relationship must be rooted in divine providence.
For the woman who shaped Bond's calloused worldview, she sure isn't afforded very much screen time.

Intuition and having a "tell" is the theme of the entire friggin' movie....

No, its not.
I wish the movie had the level of subtext you're projecting on it.
Those things are an integral part of the movie, yes, but that doesn't in any way rectify the train scene from being totally out of character.
Not to mention having the unmistakable ring of a writer bending over backwards to concoct snappy dialogue.

That's why they have scenes AFTER the train scene...They don't friggin' fall in love at first sight. There supposed to be at odds with each other.

Those scenes are few and far between, I'm afraid.
And don't even get me started on the "dinner jacket" scene, which plays like some god forsaken missing reel from 'Bewitched' or some other oh-so-cute saccharine 60's dreck.

Gee, thanks!

I've extended a commensurate amount of respect to you.
If you want to be a bellicose louse that's fine.
Hopefully, the more I post, the more likely it is you'll suffer a massive brain aneurysm, rendering your typing faculties out of commission.

Edited by Roger Moore's Bad Facelift, 16 April 2007 - 11:10 AM.

[Dr. Noah]

Right. Go watch Moonraker, Shakespeare.

[Roger Moore's Bad Facelift]

Right. Go watch Moonraker, Shakespeare.

I'd gladly take 'Moonraker', (admittedly, not a very good film, but at least a film comfortable in its own skin), over Casino Royale's Merchant Ivory /popcorn actioner whiplash tonal oscillations.

You can now resume indiscriminately genuflecting at the altar of Paul Haggis.

Edited by Roger Moore's Bad Facelift, 17 April 2007 - 09:56 PM.

[Dr. Noah]

Right. Go watch Moonraker, Shakespeare.

I'd gladly take 'Moonraker', (admittedly, not a very good film, but at least a film comfortable in its own skin), over Casino Royale's Merchant Ivory /popcorn actioner whiplash tonal oscillations.

You can now resume indiscriminately genuflecting at the altar of Paul Haggis.

Gee, thanks!

You may now pretend like you're better than him while he makes millions, wins Oscars, and you complain about it on a fan forum.

[RazorBlade]

I, too, enjoyed the heck out of the train scene. And the after dinner scene. I loved the repartee, the acting both by the actors and by the characters, I loved the verbal duel of it, it just played so well. I bought that they were attracted to each other but had their defenses up. As for Conan Doyle level of intuition or whatever, if one is trained, one notes the small things, puts them together and comes up with a big picture. Lots of investigators do this and everyday. It was the job of Bond and Vesper to size people up so I don't see the criticism here.

Of course, I've actually met someone with whom I had an encounter much the train scene, unfortunately we didn't work out. I called her a "bitch" too right after until I thought better of it and am much more at peace with the whole sitch. Nothing beats life experience or writers who write from experience.

I don't worship at the alter of Paul Haggis. I perfer someone else polish or rewrite bond 22.