50 replies to this topic

[Harmsway]

I know that if I were her, the first thing that would've been said on my part when walking into the apartment would be to demand to know how Bond found out where I lived, yet M doesn't even comprehend the fact that Bond has broken into her house.

Sure she does. What do you think, "You've got a bloody cheek" is about? She comprehends entirely well that Bond has broken into her house, but she gets sidetracked from that topic when Bond brings up the mission - which unleashes a tirade.

I also find it difficult to believe that a novice agent who has just "stormed into an embassy" and then subsequently broke the chain of command and broke into his boss' house to steal information from her computer would be allowed to continue working for the British government.

He's not a novice agent. He's been working with MI6 for eight years prior. The film doesn't establish that, but there is that track record. Still, the idea is rather ludicrous. That said, she doesn't conclusively know that he stole information from her computer - she thinks he was there just to meet her and talk to her, and then starts to wonder if he broke into use her computer.

The fact that Bond is not arrested is actually rather unbelievable, as he appears to be somewhat of a rogue agent who is allowed to do whatever he pleases without consequence.

Actually, M tells him he's off the job, and to go "stick his head in the sand somewhere". It's very clear that she's seriously contemplating getting rid of him from the secret service, and I believe it's possible that she only re-evaluates that once his lead in Nassau comes through.

Everything after "And how did you find out where I lived" feels to me like trailer dialogue.

Sure, but it's no more awkward/overwritten than M's speech in GOLDENEYE (actually, I'd argue it's less awkward/overwritten than that speech, and, at least in CASINO ROYALE Judi Dench isn't just slumming her way through the role). And really, it's possible you only see it as trailerish dialogue because it was actually used in a trailer, though I admit there's a lack of flow until she gets to the line about Bond going to stick his head in the sand somewhere. Still, all that dialogue is really brief, and far from any serious flaw.

Everything before that is OK dialogue, but all that follows is what I'm referring to, with the "I knew it was too early to promote you" (then why was he promoted?)

Well, obviously she's saying that she promoted him against some second sense judgment, and now she's regretting that choice. It's not that she actually knew that it wouldn't work, it's that she had a feeling that has now been confirmed by his actions.

[tdalton]

Everything after "And how did you find out where I lived" feels to me like trailer dialogue.

Sure, but it's no more awkward/overwritten than M's speech in GOLDENEYE (actually, I'd argue it's less awkward/overwritten than that speech, and, at least in CASINO ROYALE Judi Dench isn't just slumming her way through the role). And really, it's possible you only see it as trailerish dialogue because it was actually used in a trailer, though I admit there's a lack of flow until she gets to the line about Bond going to stick his head in the sand somewhere. Still, all that dialogue is really brief, and far from any serious flaw.

You're right, it's definitely no worse than the scene in GE, but I rank GE near the bottom of the list anyway as there isn't much in that film that really works for me either. It's just that the M scene, if it were taken out and simply replaced with a standard M and Bond in the office scene, then it probably would have worked much better. Even with the dialogue remaining the same, a change in scenery would have taken away from the ludicrousness of the entire situation. M could have summoned Bond to her office, and it really could have continued as is, and it would been much better. Granted, some of the dialogue doesn't flow that well (but it often doesn't in Bond films), so maybe awkward wasn't the correct word for me to use a few posts ago, but the whole thing is just completely unbelievable, and takes me out of the attempt at realism in the film for a few minutes.

I think that this scene was just a case of the writers feeling the need to unnecessarily driving the point home that Bond is an arrogant man who has little regards for the rules. I think they already accomplished that when they had him storm into the embassy (one of the main reasons that I don't like the free-running sequence), and the need to continue to make that point felt a bit overdone, IMO.

[Harmsway]

M could have summoned Bond to her office, and it really could have continued as is, and it would been much better.

I think it would have been much better to have Bond break into M's office or something like that.

Granted, some of the dialogue doesn't flow that well (but it often doesn't in Bond films), so maybe awkward wasn't the correct word for me to use a few posts ago, but the whole thing is just completely unbelievable, and takes me out of the attempt at realism in the film for a few minutes.

Fair enough. It doesn't take me out of the film more than, say, the absolutely silly hand wave at the end of FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, the ridiculous jetpack scene in THUNDERBALL, OHMSS' absolutely ludicrous brainwashing material, or TLD's sometimes awkward humor and absolutely silly car chase, or LTK's cringe-inducing bar fight/Q material. Nor is it as unbelievable as Fleming's Bond coming back from brainwashing, attempting to assassinate M, and then being reinstated to active duty (a storyline many Fleming devotees suggest should actually be filmed in a serious fashion... ).

It's fairly ridiculous (well, only to the extent that it's just over the edge of believability), but I don't exactly think CASINO ROYALE was even trying to be quite as realistic as some would suggest. I mean, after all, it isn't Jason Bourne. It is a movie with a free-running terrorist and a key chain bomb and a villain that bleeds from his eye (none of which I would take out of the film for all the world).

I think that this scene was just a case of the writers feeling the need to unnecessarily driving the point home that Bond is an arrogant man who has little regards for the rules. I think they already accomplished that when they had him storm into the embassy (one of the main reasons that I don't like the free-running sequence), and the need to continue to make that point felt a bit overdone, IMO.

Well, I agree with all of that. I don't even particularly like the fact that he breaks into the embassy, just as you - I would have rather it ended that Mollaka died somewhat accidentally, but M blames him for that and for causing widespread chaos/destruction throughout the chase that she has to clean up after and cover.

But, on the whole, I just don't think those flaws are that bad. I think they're rather overlookable, even as implausible as it is - and since I consider the scene very well acted and the embassy break-in to be terribly thrilling, it's even more overlookable. I mean, if Jack Bauer can storm a Chinese embassy in 24, then James Bond can certainly storm a Nambutan (is that right?) embassy in CASINO ROYALE.

[tdalton]

I think that this scene was just a case of the writers feeling the need to unnecessarily driving the point home that Bond is an arrogant man who has little regards for the rules. I think they already accomplished that when they had him storm into the embassy (one of the main reasons that I don't like the free-running sequence), and the need to continue to make that point felt a bit overdone, IMO.

Well, I agree with all of that. I don't even particularly like the fact that he breaks into the embassy, just as you - I would have rather it ended that Mollaka died somewhat accidentally, but M blames him for that and for causing widespread chaos/destruction throughout the chase that she has to clean up after and cover.

I think that your suggestion here is great, and would have accomplished more or less the same thing that the film tried to do, but in a much more believable fashion.

[bill007]

For me, the scene you two are discussing was the first real acting I had seen from Dame Judi in the franchise. The way her tone of voice changed when she went into the "Bond. I don't expect a blunt instrument...." There are several other threads here discussing the Bond-M relationship (serious and rediculous). But for me, I felt M genuinely wants Bond to succeed in his new status, as she would any person she had just promoted.

As for the scene occuring in M's apartment? Completely off the wall for me. This simply didn't have to occur. Should have been the office.

[Fro]

I don't think anyone will deny that the idea of Bond breaking into M's apartment is completely goofy (and that's probably why the first part of the scene was cut where Bond actually breaks in).

Casino Royale isn't a perfect film, but you can't really complain about that when there's no film in the franchise that's close to "perfect".

Edited by Fro, 08 April 2007 - 06:59 AM.

[Harmsway]

I don't think anyone will deny that the idea of Bond breaking into M's apartment is completely goofy (and that's probably why the first part of the scene was cut where Bond actually breaks in).

No "first part" of the scene ever existed.

[dinovelvet]

Everything about the scene that takes place in M's apartment is completely awkward. I know that if I were her, the first thing that would've been said on my part when walking into the apartment would be to demand to know how Bond found out where I lived, yet M doesn't even comprehend the fact that Bond has broken into her house. Then, they proceed to have one of the most disjointed conversations that I've ever heard, and it makes one wonder if they were even listening to each other throughout the entire thing. All their lines in this one are simply lines that are meant to be good narration for a trailer that somehow made it into the film.

Yeah I agree, that dialogue is a bit silly, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The lines don't flow or connect to each other. Interestingly, they edited out a bit of dialogue that was in the script, Bond mocks the "cover" he was supposed to be using, of Mr. Sandy Bizet, a fashion buyer. This is what prompts M to change her tack and launch into the "This may be too much for a blunt instrument to understand..." bit, whereas in the film she says that in response to "Well I understand 00s have a very short life expectancy". It makes more sense in the script so I don't know why it was cut out. I'm guessing they wanted to keep the tone of that scene all serious.

[Harmsway]

Interestingly, they edited out a bit of dialogue that was in the script, Bond mocks the "cover" he was supposed to be using, of Mr. Sandy Bizet, a fashion buyer. This is what prompts M to change her tack and launch into the "This may be too much for a blunt instrument to understand..." bit, whereas in the film she says that in response to "Well I understand 00s have a very short life expectancy". It makes more sense in the script so I don't know why it was cut out.

It was cut because the dialogue that Bond said to Mollaka was (wisely) cut. Fruthermore, Bond telling them his actual name would be absolutely juvenile, so credibility-stretching that Bond would seem like a terrible agent.

And I don't think it makes any more sense. Bond's line "I understand Double-Os have a very short life expectancy..." works just as well as a transition (nay - better, it's a bitter comeback, rather than just a flippant response, which carries much more weight), and just as well demonstrates that M's tactic of scolding isn't working and gives her a reason to "change tactics," as the script says. We don't need the other line for flow or impact - it was entirely gratuitous, and wonderfully cut.

I'm guessing they wanted to keep the tone of that scene all serious.

Doubtful. Bond's making plenty of wisecracks as is.

[LadySylvia]

Honestly, I just don't really have any problems with the M/Bond dialogue in the movie.

[sharpshooter]

The M scenes felt a little forced somehow....dont know what it is. Dialogue such as "how does he know these things?" etc were funny at first but I grow tired of them now.

I didnt really like the M in the film after watching the DVD a few more times. I know they want a mother figure, but M should remain in the office and be purely business.

Get Craig's Bond brainwashed and return to M's flat to kill her, then we get a strong male figure!

[Harmsway]

I know they want a mother figure, but M should remain in the office and be purely business.

Is there ever a point in CASINO ROYALE where M really oversteps a business relationship? I don't think so.

[Santa]

I'm not sure about this supposed awkwardness between them. Some of the dialogue may be a little clunky, granted, but to be honest, who is that relaxed around their boss? Particularly when you know you've done something wrong? I think there is a place for that awkwardness. It's not Bond chatting about football with his mates, you can't expect him to put his feet up and break out the Heineken. A certain amount of awkwardness could be expected, no?

[sharpshooter]

M in CR in dialogue is "business" but I refer not to her relationship with Bond.

Yes, I know people will state M has been an ally of Bond in the novels, but I fear we see too much of her. Since TWINE this has been the case. Frankly I despise it. I refer to keeping her all business IN the office and not in the field.

Edited by sharpshooter, 09 April 2007 - 05:21 AM.

[Robinson]

Everything after "And how did you find out where I lived" feels to me like trailer dialogue. Everything before that is OK dialogue, but all that follows is what I'm referring to, with the "I knew it was too early to promote you" (then why was he promoted?), and the whole bit about any thug being able to do what Bond does and needing to take his ego out of it all. That part to me, was awkward to me because I didn't really feels as though it flowed very well.

The issue some on this board have with the dialogue could be the result of having 3 people working on the screenplay (Purvis, Wade & Haggis).

Personally, I enjoyed the scene in M's apartment. There's tension, drama and a bit of levity. When M sits beside Bond and says "any thug can kill," I'm thinking, she's telling him how the world works (MI6) but she's doing it in a motherly fashion.

Personally, if folks are looking for the second coming of Bernard Lee or Robert Brown, then why have Dame Judi in the role? We can go to central casting and just find a 50-60ish actor and throw them their sides. From what I can see, from CR on Dench is the new Bernard Lee- she'll have that role until she quits or dies. EON & Campbell have set the table for that role. Dench is now the template for all future M's.

As for LTK, I thought there was a missed opportunity between Dalton/Bond and M. When Dalton says "and his wife" I was sure M would've comeback with something like this...

So, after all this time, it still comes down to a bullet through your Aston Martin and the death of your beloved. I thought you'd closed the book on that one a long time ago..

As for Bond's promotion,I'm sure he was promoted/installed solely to deal w/Dryden and his contact, given Dryden's knowledge of MI6. After the success of those two missions, M thought it a change of pace to simply have 007 monitor and apprehend Moloka in Madagascar. When that mission failed, that's when all the "against my better judgement" stuff comes in!

Maybe they should hire Mamet to write the dialogue from now own.

[Dr. Noah]

LOL at this whole conversation.

He kills for a living, smokes, drinks, sleeps around, but he wouldn't break into M's house because "he wouldn't do that." Too friggin' much...

Personally, I enjoyed the scene in M's apartment. There's tension, drama and a bit of levity. When M sits beside Bond and says "any thug can kill," I'm thinking, she's telling him how the world works (MI6) but she's doing it in a motherly fashion.

Yup. It's the whole point of the movie, which I guess is hard for a lot of fans to accept. They can't handle Bond evolving.

[HH007]

Like you said, just a collection of one-liners that sounded good in the trailer.

Actually, there were a couple of things, not just between Bond and M, that looked better in the trailer than in their context in the film. I know it's a trailers job to make the film look as enticing as possible, but Bonds like, "Get the girl out", damn that looked exicting when I saw it in the trailer, like something really big was "going down". Seeing it in it's full context was a bit of a letdown.

I thought that the "get the girl out" line, while somewhat of a let down from the trailer, was still a very strong moment because, had I not read the novel, I would have had no idea what was coming next.

I had not read the novel when I first saw the film, and that moment worked very well for me, like Bond was about to blow his top and do something stupid and violent again. That's part of what I love about Craig's Bond, he's made the character volatile and unpredictable.

[Dekard77]

Kill Judi Dench now. God she is terrible and her lines are cringe worthy. I hate it. I hate the way she pampers Bond like mommy's little boy. GE office room scene is very very awkward maybe some other actress could have pulled that off but she is too soft and irritable for working on Bond movie.

Also the only film I found her a bit enjoyable was DAD because Brosnan actually sticks to talking about the mission and looking very annoyed at her. Knowing who to trust mean everything...which is a good line but she hardly does that with Bond and looks a gullible fool. So stupid.
Super Thread!!!!!!!!!!

[Righty007]

Kill Judi Dench now. God she is terrible and her lines are cringe worthy. I hate it. I hate the way she pampers Bond like mommy's little boy. GE office room scene is very very awkward maybe some other actress could have pulled that off but she is too soft and irritable for working on Bond movie.

Also the only film I found her a bit enjoyable was DAD because Brosnan actually sticks to talking about the mission and looking very annoyed at her. Knowing who to trust mean everything...which is a good line but she hardly does that with Bond and looks a gullible fool. So stupid.
Super Thread!!!!!!!!!!

Judi Dench's M is great and I'm glad they carried her over from the Brosnan Era.

[HH007]

Kill Judi Dench now. God she is terrible and her lines are cringe worthy. I hate it. I hate the way she pampers Bond like mommy's little boy. GE office room scene is very very awkward maybe some other actress could have pulled that off but she is too soft and irritable for working on Bond movie.

Also the only film I found her a bit enjoyable was DAD because Brosnan actually sticks to talking about the mission and looking very annoyed at her. Knowing who to trust mean everything...which is a good line but she hardly does that with Bond and looks a gullible fool. So stupid.
Super Thread!!!!!!!!!!

So... are you trying to say you don't like her?

[DaveBond21]

Kill Judi Dench now. God she is terrible and her lines are cringe worthy. I hate it. I hate the way she pampers Bond like mommy's little boy. GE office room scene is very very awkward maybe some other actress could have pulled that off but she is too soft and irritable for working on Bond movie.

Also the only film I found her a bit enjoyable was DAD because Brosnan actually sticks to talking about the mission and looking very annoyed at her. Knowing who to trust mean everything...which is a good line but she hardly does that with Bond and looks a gullible fool. So stupid.
Super Thread!!!!!!!!!!

Judi Dench's M is great and I'm glad they carried her over from the Brosnan Era.

Me too. She is excellent as M, and I'm also glad she is back for Quantum of Solace.