22 replies to this topic

[zencat]

Is it just me, or does Bond's "seduction" of Miss Taro in DR. NO seem, well, a bit aggressive? I mean, hell, he has her by the neck at one point! Is she being coy, or does "no" mean "no" here? And when Bond finally moves in with "no hands," I don't know about you, but I see fear on her face. Yes, Miss Taro is in cahoots with the enemy, but still...

Did James Bond rape Miss Taro?

[Blue Eyes]

I don't think it would be bad acting.

I was wondering if Fleming had some influence. His notion of 'semi-rape' etc... He visited parts of the Dr No set on various filming days. Perhaps he influenced this as well?

[Icephoenix]

I think Bond did'nt rape Ms. Taro, after all her voice was not aggresive but playful.

" What that going on behind my back?"

Obviously she was 'playing along with it'.

[Blue Eyes]

Oh God. I think I'm going to have to re-watch Dr No before I get invovled in this

[RossMan]

zencat (01 Sep, 2001 07:21 p.m.):
Did James Bond rape Miss Taro?

Perhaps it's not so much whether he tried to "seduce" her which had to result in rape but whether or not it was an act of desperation on a lonely James Bond's part.

Forgive me for that, it's been a long day...

[Digitarius]

It could just be poor acting… afterall, Dr. No did have a very tight budget and low-class actors outside of the main characters.

[Jim]

Arguable, but remember that hateful though it may be, this is James Bond, this is the James Bond of Fleming's completely bizarre statement that goes something like "all women love semi-rape", which is an appalling sentiment (I think that's from the Spy who Loved Me, which makes the title a joke, as well as the book).

What it ain't is cuddly lovely James Bond of "Get dressed and I'll buy you an ice-cream". Neither is it the cuddly lovely James Bond of "Well, why don't you wait until you're asked...etc" (and that's why T. Dalton ain't Fleming's Bond. Who'd want to be Fleming's Bond? He isn't "nice").

Dr No was considered "adult". Do we consider A View to a Kill "adult"? Anyone?

Face it, the bit with Ms Taro and the subsequent scene with Professor Dent are the closest the films got to the bitterness and misery and repressed post war austerity twisted male fantasy in Fleming's writing.

This is another reason why, if Casino Royale is ever filmed, the carpet beater won't be in it.

Oh, I've rambled on a bit here, but the reason the series has been so successful is that the Fleming elements have been toned down. If you tried filming them now, you'd probably be arrested.

[Blofeld's Cat]

Just goes to show how sexual harrasment laws have affected the male population these days.
Back in the early 60's those scenes wouldn't require a second glance, but now-a-days its: "Oooo, I don't know about that".
And that's from the men!

[Blofeld's Cat]

May as well bring this back to the top, as it's just been highlighted in another thread.

Originally posted by zencat
Is it just me, or does Bond's "seduction" of Miss Taro in DR. NO seem, well, a bit aggressive? I mean, hell, he has her by the neck at one point! Is she being coy, or does "no" mean "no" here? And when Bond finally moves in with "no hands," I don't know about you, but I see fear on her face. Yes, Miss Taro is in cahoots with the enemy, but still...

Did James Bond rape Miss Taro?

My take is that it was Bond just "dealing" with the enemy, but you won't see any scenes like that these days without all the "interest" groups causing a fuss.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

bond did not rape her whatsoever, no how no way

[zencat]

Well, I created this thread 2 years ago (wow, how time flies) and I'm now not so uncomfortable with that scene. Yeah, he sort of raped her

[Dr.Carl Mortner]

Wouldn't you say the "aggressive seduction" of Pussy Galore or the statutory rape of the nurse in Thunderball (well, it was sex through coercion anyway) fall closer to the "rape" description?

Just a comment on Jim's post, if EON could have got away with making a scene like that in Dr. No in the late '80s, I think Timothy Dalton could have pulled it off very convincingly.

This is scary. I, a hardcore Roger Moore afficionado, am becoming a big Dalton fan. I promise, though, NO threads on what it would be like if he made more than two -- those get annoying. He made two good Bond films, which -- at my last count -- is just as many as Brosnan has made.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
Wouldn't you say the "aggressive seduction" of Pussy Galore or the statutory rape of the nurse in Thunderball (well, it was sex through coercion anyway) fall closer to the "rape" description?

Just a comment on Jim's post, if EON could have got away with making a scene like that in Dr. No in the late '80s, I think Timothy Dalton could have pulled it off very convincingly.

This is scary. I, a hardcore Roger Moore afficionado, am becoming a big Dalton fan. I promise, though, NO threads on what it would be like if he made more than two -- those get annoying. He made two good Bond films, which -- at my last count -- is just as many as Brosnan has made.

brosnan has really made 4 good ones, two more then dalton...but whos counting?

[Pussfeller]

And what about Bond and Pussy Galore rolling around in the hay? Wasn't that even more obvious?

I liked the early Bond films because they had the balls to put stuff like that in. Even if it's not "model behavior," it does tell us quite a bit about the character.

Though he did wear fine clothes, the Bond of Fleming's books was not a proper gentleman. He was meant to be an interesting character, not a saint.

Nor is 007 a role model. He may have been twisted into a nice, respectable action hero, but the original character was far darker.

He was also somewhat believable, even if the stories weren't.

[Pussfeller]

Another thing: Bond's harsh treatment of the ladies, while ultimately caused by his personality, was usually exacted only on the bad girls, or those who "needed it," so to speak. Today, this sort of thing would not be accepted, simply because of the prevailing attitude about how women should be treated. Clearly, Fleming's Bond (and the film Bond, early on) did not feel that womanhood deserved any special respect. He was just as comfortable "semi-raping" a henchgirl as kicking a henchboy in the double-O's.

We can imagine that he took pleasure from both.

[Dr.Carl Mortner]

When you really think about it, Bond treats virtually EVERYONE with contempt in Dr. No (except, perhaps, for his equal: Felix Leiter). The cab driver. Professor Dent. Miss Taro. Quarrel ("Fetch my shoes."). His amazing condesencion (sp?) towards Honey Ryder.

Back on the subject, I don't think it was a matter of rape, but he knew he was falling into a trap and he decided to have some fun while he was there. The Sean Connery Bond seemed to use sex as a weapon, almost to let a woman with villainous intentions know who's boss. If one were so inclined, one could write a whole psychological essay about the sexual dynamics of the early Bond films.

[Dr.Carl Mortner]

"Another thing: Bond's harsh treatment of the ladies, while ultimately caused by his personality, was usually exacted only on the bad girls, or those who "needed it," so to speak"

That's precisely why Bond's treatment of Andrea Anders in TMWTGG was so sickening, because she DIDN'T deserve it. She was just a confused girl floating around in the wrong circles. If any Bond girl in those hideous '70s Guy Hamilton outings (OK, I do like LALD, but I digress) deserved to be treated like a lady, it was her. Bond was an utter prick in TMWTGG, and it was obvious that Moore did not enjoy playing the character like that.

[Kara Milovy]

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
Wouldn't you say the "aggressive seduction" of Pussy Galore or the statutory rape of the nurse in Thunderball (well, it was sex through coercion anyway) fall closer to the "rape" description?

Here's my take, for what a woman's opinion may add to the discussion.

Miss Taro: Definitely sleazy but not rape. He knew she'd have to make love to him if he insisted. He insisted, in part to entrap her (wait for the police and/or Dent to show; he had to keep her there). She complied willingly, but only to entrap him (keep him there until Dent arrived to kill him). So it's not the tone of the conversation that is coersive, but the fact that he knew that, as long as she intended to kill him, he had her over a barrel. But she didn't know all of that, so she had to act compliant.

The really sleazy part is how angry he was at her, and hated her, knowing she'd played a part in an attempt on his life, and still...well "made love to her" is hardly the right phrase, is it?

Patricia Fearing -- not "statutory rape;" she was of age. Certainly sexual harassment, and not something a guy could get away with easily today. But when he blackmails her and she says "You don't mean...?" she is smiling broadly, so I think it was one of those "Her lips say no, no, no, but there's yes, yes, yes in her eyes" situations. As John says, that's how the game was played in those days.

Pussy Galore is the most damning, because he definitely pins her down to kiss her. It's not rape because she succumbs to the kiss and is a willing participant thereafter. In a way, it is worst because the subtext is all homophobia -- lesbians need to be "converted" by meeting "the right man" blah blah blah. It's unspoken in the movie and explicit in the book. The culture at the time would have it that there's nothing wrong with showing a lesbian the error of her ways. And she asked for it -- not that women ask for sexual force, but she was participating in his imprisonment and threatening him with physical force, using force, then turning around and acting kittenish -- well, you can't expect him not to act aggressively, and how one treats ones jailer goes by slightly different rules, I'd guess.

The worst to me is Roger Moore and Solitaire. Eye to eye, face to face, Connery may have been darkly coercive, but Moore tricked a woman covertly -- he had to be sneaky to get laid. On the sleazy trick scale, all my dials go into the red zone.

[Triton]

Well whatever it is, such a scene would never be tolerated today. Wasn't Albert Broccoli's edict that James Bond should be sadism for the family? This scene certainly dates the film. There would be zero tolerance for it today. It plays right into the dated male fantasy that no really means yes. So I guess that you can say that it is "semi-rape", demand until the woman submits.

I am glad that the character has changed over the years.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Kara Milovy
The worst to me is Roger Moore and Solitaire. Eye to eye, face to face, Connery may have been darkly coercive, but Moore tricked a woman covertly -- he had to be sneaky to get laid. On the sleazy trick scale, all my dials go into the red zone.

Did you check out this thread, Kara?

BTW, thanks for signing my guestbook.

[ray t]

Originally posted by Kara Milovy


The worst to me is Roger Moore and Solitaire. Eye to eye, face to face, Connery may have been darkly coercive, but Moore tricked a woman covertly -- he had to be sneaky to get laid. On the sleazy trick scale, all my dials go into the red zone.

ummm, kara, youre a little too harsh in this case and here is what i said in another thread:


....in reference to solitaire, i really think it was in large part a case of "SELF FULFILLING PROPHESY"

remember, the lovers card was not only drawn by bond in harlem, but by solitaire herself in her cliff top home in san moniqe in the remote reading to kananga where she's advising him that bond is coming by water, bringing with him violence.

it is at that reading that solitare (out of complete and utter FEAR) has to make a choice: to LIE or NOT to LIE to her master.

when kananga asks her "is it death?" she hessitates...the foundations of her world are about to be shaken...Kananga demands again "i said, is it death!?" he only wants one answer...she cannot give him the truthful answer or it will certainly mean HER death. its at that point that she has to make her choice. the cards (which are the world to her and in which she truly believes ("they've never lied to me")) tells her that bond and her are to be lovers. she cannot reveal the truth to Kananga...instead "it is death".

i truly feel that from solitaire's point of view "it was in the cards" ( a cliche' we use in our lives from time to time.)

THAT exact point changed her world view. This propells her to make her later choice: to give her self to (a very attractive) bond, who 1) could possibly be the "white knight who could slay her dragon" and 2) could open the world for her to be "a complete woman".

from bonds perspective its pretty straight forward: if he has to 'trick' his way into moving forward his mission, then he will do it. that's just bond. pretty plain and simple there.

....u dont want to demonize bond but you dont want to hold him up as being a paragon of angelic virtue.

....its VERY HARD to 'demonize' someone who is the "lesser of two evils" and who, in fact, is out to destroy extreme evil. and the other thing is that bond (in Live And Let Die) is no where near a 'paragon of angelic virtue'. in fact he exhibits the same characteristics that ConneryBond exibits in the miss taro scene in Dr No:

i've commented in a previous post on this page about (paraphrasing) 'dirty players playing a devious/dirty game' in the bond-taro case. its the EXACT same thing in the bond-rosie carver 'pic-nic' scene:

bond suspects carver as a deceitful, perverse liar and a cheat (the queen of cups card in the upside down position, changing her story about precisely WHERE bains was killed) and uses her for sex, a modus operandi to complete the mission.

after their tryst, he points his walther at her temple and demands answers. if she doesnt answer, he will kill her. when she retorts something to the effect of "you couldnt kill me...not after what we've just done", the response by MooreBond is priceless: 'well i cetainly wouldnt have done it BEFORE'.

a TOTAL slap in the face...a uniqe MooreBond moment in the mould of ConneryBond scenes with miss taro and 'marie' in Diamonds Are Forever pre-titles.

no angelic virtue there for sure!

....what happens to solitaire after they dis-embark from the baron-samedi mounted train:

... the world is her's to explore; she's already proven to be the opportunist (deceptively switching back sides at the airport when the white knight looks as if he's miserably failed)....

-------------------

so u see kara, solitaire knew it was her destiny to be taken by bond...i'd say he acts rather more pervesely with rosie...non?

[Kara Milovy]

Originally posted by ray t


ummm, kara, youre a little too harsh in this case and here is what i said in another thread:


....in reference to solitaire, i really think it was in large part a case of "SELF FULFILLING PROPHESY"

I responded in the other thread...

In short, Solitaire's choice (as you point out, she has already decided Bond is the one) doesn't excuse Bond's behavior. If you decide to steal something from me, and I have decided to give it to you freely, that doesn't mean you are not a thief. Bond was sleazy and underhanded.

Comparing it to Rosie Carver or Miss Taro isn't fair; both of those were villainesses who intended to harm Bond. Solitaire was an innocent and a prisoner, and Bond knew it.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Kara Milovy
I responded in the other thread...

In short, Solitaire's choice (as you point out, she has already decided Bond is the one) doesn't excuse Bond's behavior. If you decide to steal something from me, and I have decided to give it to you freely, that doesn't mean you are not a thief. Bond was sleazy and underhanded.
Comparing it to Rosie Carver or Miss Taro isn't fair; both of those were villainesses who intended to harm Bond. Solitaire was an innocent and a prisoner, and Bond knew it.

Agreed.

As to Taro.... no, it wasn't rape, and no, it was hardly ethical or decent behavior on Bond's part. I agree with Jim's point---this is what Fleming's Bond was, and Sean portrayed that. He's not likeable nor terribly thoughtful nor respectful nor sensitive, esp. when it comes to a woman who's trying to get him killed.