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'The Benson Dilemma'


108 replies to this topic

#91 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:10 AM

Deighton was new middle class, but Le Carre was every bit as much of the Establishment as Fleming. Eton, Oxford, back to Eton to teach, inteligence work.

I don't think we would have had a jaded flower-power Bond after 68. That's the nature of the Establishment. That's my point - someone of Bond's class and background doing his job would be very likely to believe he was fighting for a just cause. That is who that character is. There are men and women of that class and background around in 2005 who believe invading Iraq was just, aren't there? There are others who don't, and didn't then. And they were represented in the early 60s in spy fiction, too, in the work of John le Carr

Edited by spynovelfan, 14 April 2005 - 11:18 AM.


#92 David Schofield

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:33 AM

"Bond's cause was always a just one and no reader could deny this."

Many people in the early 1960s would have denied that statement. A few of them would have been from the Establishment.

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[/quote]

Don't know about that.

Of course, Fleming's great trick to disguise his own (possibly) morally ambivalent position was to make the villains and there projections even more so. Could anyone, regardless of class, have objected to, for example, Goldfinger raiding Fort Knox? Fleming nicely plays up the fantastical elements of the stories to disguise his dubious views and therefore Bond becomes as morally right as St George, that is good (or rather, degrees of it) versus bad (unquestionably so).

And there is the memorable exchange in From Russia where Bond defends homosexuals and intellectuals versus spies in his discussion with Captain Troup over Burgess and MacLean. Fleming enlightened?

#93 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 11:43 AM

Oh, I'd forgotten that! Will look it up. I stand by the statement you quoted. THE SPY WHO CAME IN FROM THE COLD was published in 1963, and it was a massive best-seller. One of the reasons for that was because people were rather sick of stories in which we were unquestionably good and they were unquestionably bad. THE IPCRESS FILE, published the previous year, also had some of that to it:
/spoiler.gif
the head of the agency the protagonist works for turns out to be a traitor. Can you imagine a Fleming novel in which M worked for the Russians? I can't.
/gen_line.gif
Eric Ambler, Graham Greene and even Somerset Maugham had all written spy stories that questioned the justness of our cause. Ambler was one of the best-selling writers in the world. And, as I say, a great many members of the British establishment had been communists in the 1930s, so they were quite capable of questioning causes and seeing the other side of the equation.

#94 David Schofield

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 12:43 PM

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='14 April 2005 - 11:43']
Oh, I'd forgotten that! Will look it up. I stand by the statement you quoted. THE SPY WHO CAME IN FROM THE COLD was published in 1963, and it was a massive best-seller. One of the reasons for that was because people were rather sick of stories in which we were unquestionably good and they were unquestionably bad. THE IPCRESS FILE, published the previous year, also had some of that to it:
/spoiler.gif
the head of the agency the protagonist works for turns out to be a traitor. Can you imagine a Fleming novel in which M worked for the Russians? I can't.
/gen_line.gif


No I can't imagine M turning out to be a traitor. Though it is possible to read Bond in the same way as the Spy Who Came in from the Cold: Bond is sent by US under order to defeath THEM. He does so. And yet in Goldfinger, Bond says he doesn't like killing and yet he has to do so when ordered. In others words, Bond realises that he is morally dubious and therefore by implicition so is Britain.

You see, I've never really accepted Le Carre's view of Bond as pørnography: however more attractive he may be than Alex Leamas, how many people really want to be James Bond, government assassin, blunt instrument?

#95 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:00 PM

I don't accept le Carr

#96 David Schofield

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:15 PM

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='14 April 2005 - 13:00']I don't accept le Carr

#97 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:31 PM

You're haivng it both ways, though. You're saying the appeal is partly that he's a killer and so he incurs le Carre's wrath. But that he's not so dissimilar from Leamas because he doesn't always kill. Sure, if he were just a high-flying civil servant nobody would want to be him. He's dangerous, and that's attractive. But very few people want to do that stuff, do they? The appeal is that this is the drink the world's best secret agent drinks. This is the style of a very dangerous man. People aspired to the style because he was also an assassin - but nobody wanted to actually do the assassinating bit.

So you said:

"How many people really want to be James Bond, government assassin, blunt instrument?"

Very few. Bond is a government assassin and blunt instrument and peopl want to be him. But they don't want to be James Bond, government assassin, blunt instrument.

#98 Loomis

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:49 PM

An excellent article on the "Benson dilemma":

http://www.hmss.com/books/ghosts/

#99 David Schofield

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 01:56 PM

You're haivng it both ways, though. You're saying the appeal is partly that he's a killer and so he incurs le Carre's wrath. But that he's not so dissimilar from Leamas because he doesn't always kill. Sure, if he were just a high-flying civil servant nobody would want to be him. He's dangerous, and that's attractive. But very few people want to do that stuff, do they? The appeal is that this is the drink the world's best secret agent drinks. This is the style of a very dangerous man. People aspired to the style because he was also an assassin - but nobody wanted to actually do the assassinating bit.

So you said:

"How many people really want to be James Bond, government assassin, blunt instrument?"

Very few. Bond is a government assassin and blunt instrument and peopl want to be him. But they don't want to be James Bond, government assassin, blunt instrument.

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What I THINK I'm trying to say is that Le Carre maintain Bond's appeal is the capitalist dream element. And yet, without being a spy, Bond has no appeal, however well-off, as just a civil servant. And yet, Bond also doesn't always kill, not unlike Leamas. Le Carre's argument, therefore, has little ground.

Conversely, no one (as an aspirant fan) wants to do the killing bit in immitating Bond, fair enough: and yet without the killer element, the ability to be ruthless, save the world etc, Bond is just a well-off guy who has particular tastes. (This is the drink drunk by a posh civil servant, this is the hotel stayed in by a posh civil servant. Ooh.)

So there has to be an appeal in being a killer? Which makes the reader as morally corrupt as Bond. And therefore Le Carre is right.

I think.

#100 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 02:28 PM

I agree with you completely, David. I think. :)

#101 David Schofield

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 02:37 PM

An excellent article on the "Benson dilemma":

http://www.hmss.com/books/ghosts/

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Loomis, the only trouble with this article is that the author Michael Read is one of Benson's biggest fans (read his views of the novels on HMSS!) so therefore not very impartial.

#102 clinkeroo

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:21 PM

An excellent article on the "Benson dilemma":

http://www.hmss.com/books/ghosts/

View Post


Well written article, but for the sake of discussion, I would take umbrage with the following:

If he ](Gardner) had tried writing period pieces then we would be doing a Nostalgia piece. Bond is only going to continue by being in the present day. The success of the film series and the simple competition in stores by other authors today mandate it. -- Michael Reed, Ghosts and Spectres

Those are major concessions to be made without offering any back-up statements/examples. Historical thrillers can do/and have done quite well. Also, this concept that there is some sort of umbilical relationship between the films and the novels, although often argued, has never been tested.

"But, clinkeroo," you say. "You are not giving any examples of your points either."

"Ah," I say. "Therein lies the discussion."

#103 clinkeroo

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:46 PM

Ack, sorry for the double post, these dial-up dinosaur computers at work are no fun :) . If any of the mods could whack one of those I'd appreciate it :) .

From Jim: Whacked, accordingly. Love, Jim.

#104 spynovelfan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:51 PM

Indeed, Clinkeroo. My objection as well. I've done a lot of research on this, because I am writing a spy thriller set in 1969. And I want it to be a best-seller. So I've analysed the received wisdom that the end of the Cold War meant the end of espionage fiction and so on and decided it's nonsense. The Cold War is now period, and it's very interesting period. I think it has the potential that World War Two had in the 70s, when the likes of Jack Higgins and Alistair Maclean were at their peak. How do books like THE EAGLE HAS LANDED and WHERE EAGLES DARE fit into Mr Reed's theory, then? I think the Cold War - especially the 60s - have a lot of appeal right now.

Some examples of recent period best-sellers:

ENIGMA by Robert Harris
CODE TO ZERO by Ken Follett
ABSOLUTE FRIENDS by John le Carr

#105 Loomis

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:24 PM

An excellent article on the "Benson dilemma":

http://www.hmss.com/books/ghosts/

View Post


Well written article, but for the sake of discussion, I would take umbrage with the following:

If he ](Gardner) had tried writing period pieces then we would be doing a Nostalgia piece. Bond is only going to continue by being in the present day. The success of the film series and the simple competition in stores by other authors today mandate it. -- Michael Reed, Ghosts and Spectres

View Post


Yes, there's the implication that Bond (cinematic as well as literary) can only ever succeed/survive by being set in today's world. You could argue, of course, that viewers are quite happy to sit through "period" Bond films, given that the Connery, Lazenby and Moore outings do superb business on DVD and are often shown on peak time TV. Going by Reed, you'd assume people would only be interested in watching the Brosnans and maybe the Daltons.

#106 Mister Asterix

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:32 PM

An excellent article on the "Benson dilemma":

http://www.hmss.com/books/ghosts/

View Post


Well written article, but for the sake of discussion, I would take umbrage with the following:

If he ](Gardner) had tried writing period pieces then we would be doing a Nostalgia piece. Bond is only going to continue by being in the present day. The success of the film series and the simple competition in stores by other authors today mandate it. -- Michael Reed, Ghosts and Spectres

Those are major concessions to be made without offering any back-up statements/examples. Historical thrillers can do/and have done quite well. Also, this concept that there is some sort of umbilical relationship between the films and the novels, although often argued, has never been tested.

"But, clinkeroo," you say. "You are not giving any examples of your points either."

"Ah," I say. "Therein lies the discussion."

View Post


Well, so far SilverFin is doing quite well as a period piece. Not a perfect example, but I should think adults would have an easier time with a period piece than children do.

#107 Jim

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:42 PM

Given that it was all a period piece for an England that never existed anyway, there was never anything to which Bond was genuinely contemporary. Accordingly, the decision to "update" him always mystified me - update him from where? Or more precisely, when? What was out of date when the "date" never happened?

#108 Trident

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 04:44 PM

Sorry for briefly interfering, Spy and David. :)

Yes Spy. On proper reflection you are probably right about Bond being a child of much older times and of being closer to myth than to the real life of the people reading his adventures, even back in the sixties.

Fleming mentioned Bugess and McLean briefly in FRWL. It was just two or three sentences but nonetheless he mentioned them. Of course his intention was to establish a sense of security. If Bond is not really disturbed by those defectors, we need not be disturbed.


Even Years later in

Edited by Trident, 14 April 2005 - 05:04 PM.


#109 DLibrasnow

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 02:14 PM

Well, so far SilverFin is doing quite well as a period piece.

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Right and that's one of the things I really appreciate about it.