45 replies to this topic

[Humphrey Bogart]

Obviously spoilers follow.

Having seen this a third time, I have completely changed opinion about who the rat helping Le Chiffre is.

I now think the rat is Villiers, not Mathis. And I think part of his motive is some weird jealousy or hatred of Bond. Mathis would really not have all the information that Le Chiffre ends up with, but Villiers would.

Mathis when asking Bond why they left him alive, might be suspecting that Bond himself cut a deal - or that Vesper did, that in itself doesn't incriminate him.

Villiers's communication with Le Chiffre is probably a day behind (no immediate) but he's feeding him crucial information such as the GPS chip and more.

Villiers is one of those mousy types who both dreams of and wants power but can only end up in a supporting role; he can't even look at a dead body and is totally jealous of Bond and hates him (consiouscly or unconsciously).

Becoming a rat is the only way he can ever have the power he wants. He thinks Bond is a mistake and so he colludes against him.

to me the tip-off was the cardiac arrest scene - they focus intently on his face, and he doesn't look relieved that Bond survives - he just shows consternation and it's rather inexplicable.

From the practical standpoint, in the book Mathis is clean. Turning him bent would be a major change and I don't see the benefit of it.

Plus they created a great character for him and it doesn't seem likely that they would get rid of him

I think M has some house cleaning to do - first Dryden, now Villiers. She's got to tighten the reins!

Infact, if Villiers is removed for being a traitor, we could see a chance that some lady named Miss Moneypenny might sit on Villers' chair in Bond 22.

Just my opinion.

[dinovelvet]

Very interesting idea. And Villiers does sort of stall Bond a little bit by putting him on hold when he's phoning from Miami. It could be a nice twist that the man who has access to M's secrets is a traitor, and yes, it would pave the way for a rebooted Moneypenny to appear at the end of Bond 22, after Bond has executed Villiers

[Publius]

I think Leiter is more likely (although sadly, I wouldn't put that above some of TPTB), but Villiers is certainly possible.

It would necessitate Vesper being more of a traitor, though, what with "the tell" being made known to Le Chiffre. Then again, maybe he planned it that way all along...

Bond 22 better hurry up!

[Loomis]

Yeah, I think Villiers is the rat. Two reasons: Eon seems incapable of making a film these days without a traitor in MI6; and if Moneypenny is going to return to the series (which seems a virtual certainty), Villiers would have to lose his job.

[Tiin007]

Good idea, Mr. Bogart. I think they should save Moneypenny for Bond 2.3 though. Have 2.2 end in a cliffhanger where Bond learns Villiers was the rat, then start off 2.3 with M being assasinated (Villiers knew enough about M to provide his organization with exactly how to, say, get into M's house). Then, Bond is after Villiers for not only everything in Casino Royale (Vesper), but also to avenge M. At the end of 2.3, Bond will have killed Villiers and 2.4 will start off with a new M that Bond doesn't get along with. With the new M will be a new secretary (I'd prefer Loelia Ponsonby for some freshness). Then introduce Q in Bond 2.5. That's my long range plan.

[Icephoenix]

Interesting theory. Is Villiers M's secretary or a replacement for Tanner? The way he's shown he kind of covers both bases.

[Dell Deaton]

I think Leiter is more likely (although sadly, I wouldn't put that above some of TPTB), but Villiers is certainly possible.

It would necessitate Vesper being more of a traitor, though, what with "the tell" being made known to Le Chiffre. Then again, maybe he planned it that way all along...

Bond 22 better hurry up!

At the risk of taking a solo flight here, I've never cared for Vesper (novel or film). So it's easy for me to see her as "being more of a traitor...."

[killkenny kid]

Good theory, but I can do without another mole.

[DamnCoffee]

I love the theory Bogart, but i think its too good to be true. , but i would praise Eon if they decided to use the idea.

[Dell Deaton]

Good theory, but I can do without another mole.

Hmm, yeah: Counting backwards...

• Miranda Frost
• Elektra King
• Alec Trevelyan (if you're just counting "our side")
• Ed Killifer
• Georgi Koskov (multi-directional)
• Aristotle Kristatos

Well, you get the idea. (But, admittedly, probably not the strictest interpretation of the word "mole.")

[Mr_Wint]

I doubt it. In a way, Villiers helps Bond when he identify the plane as the target for the terrorist.

But I wouldn't mind if this character was excecuted.

[dinovelvet]

Come to think of it, how DOES Bond know where M lives, her real name, and her password for MI6's secure website? M asks, but we never find out. Seems like Villiers would have all this information. Maybe it will be revealed in B22 that he is giving out information like this to whoever wants it.

[bond_girl_double07]

I think Leiter is more likely (although sadly, I wouldn't put that above some of TPTB), but Villiers is certainly possible.

It would necessitate Vesper being more of a traitor, though, what with "the tell" being made known to Le Chiffre. Then again, maybe he planned it that way all along...

Bond 22 better hurry up!

NOOOOOOOO! Leiter is pure as snow, what are you even talking about

Interesting idea for Villiers.. I think there's almost no proof of it in CR, but it would make a really fun plot twist for 22.. it's better than all of the previous "moles" in a way because he just knows more.. very interesting Bogart

[DamnCoffee]

I doubt it. In a way, Villiers helps Bond when he identify the plane as the target for the terrorist.

But I wouldn't mind if this character was excecuted.

I could just imagine Villiers lying dead on the floor at Mi6, with CSI all over the place and M introducing Miss Moneypenny to Bond as Villiers replacement.

[CM007]

Come to think of it, how DOES Bond know where M lives, her real name, and her password for MI6's secure website? M asks, but we never find out. Seems like Villiers would have all this information. Maybe it will be revealed in B22 that he is giving out information like this to whoever wants it.

I don

[dinovelvet]

[quote name='CM007' post='693091' date='25 January 2007 - 14:31'][quote name='dinovelvet' post='693014' date='25 January 2007 - 21:35']Come to think of it, how DOES Bond know where M lives, her real name, and her password for MI6's secure website? M asks, but we never find out. Seems like Villiers would have all this information. Maybe it will be revealed in B22 that he is giving out information like this to whoever wants it.[/quote]

I don

[Dell Deaton]

I think Leiter is more likely....

NOOOOOOOO! Leiter is pure as snow, what are you even talking about ....

Thanks for the reminder, bond_girl_double07. Felix is untouchable, in my opinion. At the worst, no worse than blah (eg, Thunderball). But when "he disagreed w/ something that ate him," I mean, that is commitment to the franchise!

Latest Leiter (Casino Royale portrayal) is best for me.

Okay, back to the subject at hand....

[stamper]

I just noticed, Villiers is the one who recommends Bond to battle le chiffre at the cards game to M... So M says...
Could be that Villiers knows Bond temper will mess things up and help Le Chiffre win...

[DamnCoffee]

and he wastes time when Bond is desperate for help at miami airport:
"I'm afraid she cant be disturbed"
"Can i put you on hold"
come to mind

[Mr_Wint]

Miranda Frost, Vesper Lynd, Dryden, Mathis... I've had enough with MI6-traitors now for a while. They'll make British intelligence look like a bunch of idiots.

[DamnCoffee]

OMG I cannot believe that you just missed out Alec Trevelyan in that list

[Head of S]

Interesting theory. Is Villiers M's secretary or a replacement for Tanner? The way he's shown he kind of covers both bases.

I assume his role is similar to Charles Robinson. When Villiers is in his office he is not sitting in Moneypenny's office but the other adjoining room which, during the virtual reality sequence in Die Another Day, is Robinson's domain.

There's no indication that Villiers is up to no good, and no reason why the character cannot return when, or if, Moneypenny appears in a future movie.

[stamper]

Rewatching the movie, it's clear to me that Vesper is the one who did rat on Le Chiffre sign of "bluffing" noticed by Bond to Le Chiffre, not Mathis. Look at her when Bond is about to lose it all, she acts like she knows what's gonna happen, while Le Chiffre is his usual self.

[spynovelfan]

Cool theory. But I think the real traitor is 'M', who is not the M we know from the Brosnan films but in fact Mr White's boss who has killed the real M, then remodelled himself with plastic surgery and replaced her.

[stamper]

You wouldn't last 24 seconds on a 24 board man

[Loomis]

Bond's the traitor.

[TheREAL008]

Going back the the second Casino Scene: I think Mathis tipped off Le Chiffre accidently when he talks about his tail to Vesper when they're both TWO FEET across from him. That part is just carelessness on Mathis' behalf.

The implant Villers WOULD know about because he was there when Bond was getting the shot. Mathis didn't know about it and neither did Vesper. They couldn't have because it would have been known to only Villers and M. M can't be the double because she's M and we've known her for too long and to substitute her for a new Sir Miles Messervy would be a bit farfecthed.

The part where Le Chiffre says "I'm afraid your friend Mathis is my friend Mathis" is supposed to throw us off.

Villers has to be the traiitor. If he's found he could be replaced with Bill Tanner or Moneypenny. Whichever of the two works for me really.

[DamnCoffee]

How does Bond know M's personal details - Villiers.

[spynovelfan]

How does Bond know M's personal details - Villiers.

How would that make him a traitor, though?

[DamnCoffee]

that dosent make him a traitor, it makes him untrustworthy and liable to give out classified information