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Q&A about Vesper


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#1 ralawar

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 10:16 PM

First off, I have never read to the book, so when I went to see the movie, I wasn't sure what to expect. I had heard that it was a great movie from pretty much everyone that spoke about it. So I went to see it and it turned out to be really amazing.

The one thing, though, that made the movie so much more interesting was Vesper's character. It felt like the any other action-packed 007 movie except with a different
and cleverly designed action scenes up until the point where I saw the scene with Vesper and JB on the train. She seemed like a really interesting character and was a mystery to me throughout the whole movie as much as she was for Bond (I guess that's because the movie is suppose to be from Bond's point of view?).

Ever since seeing the movie (especially the drowning scene), it really bugged me that I didn't know what was really going on inside Vesper's head. In fact, I don't know why I'm so into this movie (and Vesper), but it's all I can think about and I can't wait 2 years for the next movie. I have so many unanswered questions that I tried to find the answers to here on the forums and the internet, but most still remain unanswered. So I thought I'd post the questions I have (as well as what information I have gathered about it - sorry about not giving credit to the posters who helped with the information. I'm going off the top of my head of what I saw on the forum and don't remember where or who posted the information) and hopefully many of you will be able to figure the answers out or at least help since a lot of posters here seem to not just have read the book, but also know a lot of background on bond books and movies. Oh, and I know the book and film aren't exactly the same, but since the film is based of the book, I'm sure some of the film stuff can be explained from the book.

1. When did Vesper Lynd get blackmailed? Before meeting with Bond on the train or at the torture scene or perhaps at a different part of the movie?

I could be wrong, but I believe that it was before her meeting with Bond on the train . One reason is because she refused to give him the 5 million dollars to get back into the poker games. If she wasn't being blackmailed yet, she could have refused because she didn't want to give Le Chiffre/terrorists any more money, but it'd be more likely that she'd risk 5 million dollars to have a chance at bankrupting Le Chiffre (plus she saw that Bond was really good at reading people - like Le Chiffre's bluffing tell - so Bond would have a good chance to win the 2nd attempt). However, I think she didn't give him the money because she was being blackmailed to help Le Chiffre win and keep Bond out of the games. Keeping bond out and handicapping him from the game however she could was probably the reason she was used by the unknown organisation. so, she was most likely blackmailed right after Le Chiffre made plans for the poker game (meaning before she met Bond on the train).

Another reason that makes me believe she was already blackmailed from the beginning was that she and Mathis were the only possible people to know about he tracker implanted in Bond's left arm and tell the bad guys about it. No where in the movie do we see a scene where Mathis could have known about the tracker, but Vesper could have. The part where Vesper revives Bond after he was poisoned was the only opportunity in the movie for her to know about the tracker in his arm since she saw the gadget(the cell phone?) plugged into his arm (and him unplugging/sucking on the wound where the tracker was) and that he was talking to someone on the phone. She must have put two and two together to figure out a tracker was in his arm.

2. Why did Vesper act superior and condescending to Bond up until he was recovering from the torture? Then she acted like she totally in to him out of nowhere, why? The she's all lovely-dovey with him?

Her actions confused me a bit but after some thought I have a few theories for the motives behind her actions. Since the first meeting with Bond until the torture scene, she seemed to be a bit condescending. I think she was trying to bring down Bond's spirit and make him doubt his plans would succeed. Or maybe she had a prejduce of him being an egotistical killing-machine. Or perhaps she's just feeling superior and arrogant, and teasing him around for fun.

Then after the torture scene, while bond is recovering, she says "And you can have me anywhere." This is the point of the movie where she just turns completely around and starts flirting with him. I read a theory somewhere on these boards that she was probably just trying to seduce him for the password because she promised Mr. White the money back during the torture. (I don't think she fell in love with him yet. The whole thing M said about her saving his life by trading the money was probably purposly wrong - M's explanation was probably just to help Bond feel better . Vesper was dispensable to the unknown organisation because all she was used for was for helping Le Chiffre win the poker game. When Le Chiffre lost, she was dispensable to the organisation as well as Le Chiffre (which explains why her life was risked when she was placed on the road infront of Bond's car). Since she was now worthless to the orgnisation, she made a deal of getting the password & money from Bond as long as keeping Bond, as well as her, alive. Basically, she had little or no feelings for Bond at the point of torture and M made it look like Vesper loved Bond when Vesper was only trying to save her own butt).

However, her feelings appeared to have changed when she learned the password was VESPER. I say this because of the look on her face and how she told him about him being more man than everyone even if he had just his little finger and a smile left. She probably first didn't think much of him when they met. Then as she saw how strong, brave, smart, etc. he was by winning the poker game, beating the bad guys, and the shower scene (this showed her his vulnerable/caring side - w/o his "armor" on). This built some more interest but nothing strong. Then when she found out the password, she slowly started falling for him because the password revealed Bond's "armorless" side and that he thought/cared about her. Then his little romantic sentences of how he was all hers, that he wanted to save what's left of his soul for her, and that he told her he loved her must have made some big impacts on her and made her fall in love. (I think though the movie was just rushing/cutting out a lot of the love build-up due to the long length the movie. The book had conversations of them at the hospital that made her fall in love wasn't it?)

3. Why did Vesper fall in love with Bond? and why did Bond fall in love with Vesper?

I don't think anyone can really answer this since it's more of a personal thing only the characters would know, but I think I took a really good shot at the first part of the question in my answer to the previous question.

As for Bond falling in love with Vesper, I believe he found her stunning beautiful (the scene of where he stares at her from the poker table is one example) and enigmatic (I suppose she was enigmatic not because she was a complex person. She was only complicated at that time because of her circumstances. She was living two lives - the spy/traitor and the accoutant. Kind of ironic...he falls in love with her for her enigma and yet her enigma is just caused by the betrayal which makes him hate her). Eva Green even comments several times about her character, Vesper, being loved by Bond for her enigma.

Edit: She also was the one who stripped off his armor and got him to be more human & less apathetic to his killings.

4. What was Vesper's plan at the end? What was she going to do about her b/f? With the money? etc.

This is a hard question that I'm not sure about. My theory is that she was going to drop off the money in hopes that the unknown organisation would let her live and leave her alone with bond. However, she knew that she'd just be going to her death (hence the long, passionate kiss she gives Bond before going off to the bank) as metioned by M in the conversation at the end of the movie. This explains why she left her phone and the text message of Mr. White's phone number (to track it like he did with the terrorist) for James. She wanted him to find Mr. White and figure things out as a revenge plan on stopping the unknown organisation for what they did to her and other innocent people.

As for her boyfriend, I don't know what she was going to do about him. Perhaps she knew that once she became dispensable again to Mr. White and the organisation, they would end up killing her for knowning too much instead of letting her and her boyfriend go. Plus her boyfriend was probably never going to be free anyway or might have already been killed by then.

5. Why did she kill herself?

This question seems has really stomped a lot of people out. The hard part is that there are a ton of different possibilty of reasons as well as a certain combination of the reasons. I doubt anyone knows the answer for certain. Hopefully, the writers left her reasoning out on purpose and will explain everything clearly in the next movie. I would really like to get everyone's theory on this, though.

If I had to guess though, it would probably be related to the previous question's answer. She could not go on living knowing that she would never get her boyfriend free, Bond would no longer love her back because of her betrayal, and her guilt/shame of betraying her country and getting all the people killed during her blackmailing. With the building collapsing around her and with Bond staring her in the face, she must have lost all hope and felt like everything had gone wrong in her life, so she wanted a way out.

6. What is with the text message at the end that reads "For James: Mr White..."? How did Vesper send the text message to her own phone if she was the one who left? Did she just send it to herself because it says "New Message" as if someone sent it to her instead of the message just being stored on the phone? There was no "From:" portion of the message, so did she really recieve the message or what?

This stupid little issue has been bugging me. Maybe it's just a movie mistake. Though, it was most likely that Vesper just sent the message to herself and the "From:" part was missing because bond scrolled down or something so it didn't fit on the screen.

7. Did Vesper leave her phone back at the bedroom on purpose?

I would have to say yes. First, it is discussed in the end during the conversation between Bond and M. Second, it fits into the theory in the answer to question 4.

8. Just curious...during the drowning scene, when Vesper was putting her face against Bond's hands, why did she get forced back to the back-side of the elevator all of a sudden?

It was kind of weird that that happened. I think she had run out of air and swallowed water, causing her to sink. Since the elevator was tilted, the other side of the elevator that she was at was at the bottom. It's possible that she could have pushed herself back, but the look of surprise on her face and the scream indicate that theory unlikely. Also, it could have been a strong current that hit her, but again, I doubt it since there weren't any signs of strong currents/waves.

(By the way, that's one of the saddest scenes I've ever seen in a movie. The look on her face when she was looking left toward Bond at first, before she held his hands, was so sad. It radiated so much of her emotion and pain. It was like she was trying to be strong and expressionless, but I could see sadness for losing Bond and pity for him trying so hard to save her. The horrible moment where she reaches out with her right hand and has a horrifying look on her face; it was like she wanted to say goodbye one last time. It's so hard to get that scene out of my head. It was some of the best acting I've ever seen.)


***Few Notes***(FYI):
By the way, Vesper really was tortured by Le Chiffre's men because someone mentioned that she has some kind of splynth/bandages on her left hand during the Bond's recovery scene (she was wearing the green dress) where Mandles visits for the password. I watched the movie again and noticed it barely, too. It's kind of hard to see because she doesn't show her left hand very much during that scene.

Also, people have been saying that Vesper stops wearing her love-knot necklace after she falls in love with Bond. I went back to watch the movie for it and noticed that the only time she didn't wear the necklace was in the last few scenes beginning from the time she puts on the red dress before going to the bank until the time she dies.
***************

I hope these answers help everyone figure out the questions that have risen from this movie. Please feel free to add to/debate the answers or just comment on them. I wanna hear what you guys think, good or bad.

Edited by ralawar, 06 January 2007 - 02:11 AM.


#2 FullMetalJacket

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 02:46 AM

Very relevant and helpful. Thanks for posting! :cooltongue:

#3 ralawar

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 09:58 PM

Over 70 views and only one reply?

I want some feedback to what you guys think about the answers. Which ones sound right to you? Which ones seem wrong?

#4 Fro

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 02:43 AM

As for #1, here's where I think this happens:

- Note that Bond enters the Casino when it's night, and they play poker for "four hours". So it's at least 11 p.m. when the stairwell fight happens.

- The stairwell fight happens. Something I noticed on second viewing is Vesper doesn't get a single drop of blood on her (I assumed she did, but it doesn't happen). Vesper's freaked out a bit, but not to extent she is later

- Bond goes to the room, washes up, and changes his tux shirt.

- He then goes and continues playing poker (presumably for at least a few hours).

- [BLACKMAIL]

- When Bond comes back (this is presumably around 3 or 4 am), Vesper's in the shower with her dress on, freaking out. She says "it's likethere's blood on my hands and I can't get it off". She never had literal blood on her hands or anywhere on her body! Her personality is quite different the rest of the movie.

- Bond wakes up and Vesper is sleeping, but you can tell she's an emotional wreck.

I also think a later blackmail makes more sense, since the entire situation that made the poker game necessary in the first place didn't sprout up until just before the game! Mi6 didn't decide to even send an agent in until after LeChiffre got his game setup. Mr. White's organization would have had to have a mole in the treasury department make sure Vesper was assigned to that game, and it would be impossible to figure that out far enough in advance to get that setup.

#5 bill007

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 03:35 AM

Welcome to CBn and the forums ralawar. Very good reviews and explanations of your points. But your frustration over comments is due in large part to the overall length of your thesis. You'll probably get more returns breaking your ideas into spearate posts. :cooltongue:

#6 ralawar

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:21 AM

Welcome to CBn and the forums ralawar. Very good reviews and explanations of your points. But your frustration over comments is due in large part to the overall length of your thesis. You'll probably get more returns breaking your ideas into spearate posts. :cooltongue:



Thanks! I'm glad to be here.

I tried to break down the points by seperating them with different questions. It looks like a long post, but each answer is pretty short. Posting about just one question/answer would be fine. I just want to understand the movie as best as I can.

#7 bill007

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:35 AM

Hey, friend. Like you, my intitial repsonse upon joining CBn was to delve into the finer sides of the latest 007 adventure. I suffered from that for a while, as no one would reply to my posts. :lol:

It is a learning process here, as with other boards. Take the time to use the SEARCH function at the bottom of the screen for topics which, more-than-likely, have already been discussed.

Then, pick-and-choose those topics to re-spawn them with your quote. You will win big points :angry: with the 'regulars' here (of which, I am only a pittiful beginner).

Darn, there I go again, ramble, ramble, ramble.

Quick ralawar, take this message before I..I..I..
:cooltongue:

Edited by bill007, 06 January 2007 - 05:36 AM.


#8 ralawar

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:46 AM

As for #1, here's where I think this happens:

- Note that Bond enters the Casino when it's night, and they play poker for "four hours". So it's at least 11 p.m. when the stairwell fight happens.

- The stairwell fight happens. Something I noticed on second viewing is Vesper doesn't get a single drop of blood on her (I assumed she did, but it doesn't happen). Vesper's freaked out a bit, but not to extent she is later

- Bond goes to the room, washes up, and changes his tux shirt.

- He then goes and continues playing poker (presumably for at least a few hours).

- [BLACKMAIL]

- When Bond comes back (this is presumably around 3 or 4 am), Vesper's in the shower with her dress on, freaking out. She says "it's likethere's blood on my hands and I can't get it off". She never had literal blood on her hands or anywhere on her body! Her personality is quite different the rest of the movie.

- Bond wakes up and Vesper is sleeping, but you can tell she's an emotional wreck.

I also think a later blackmail makes more sense, since the entire situation that made the poker game necessary in the first place didn't sprout up until just before the game! Mi6 didn't decide to even send an agent in until after LeChiffre got his game setup. Mr. White's organization would have had to have a mole in the treasury department make sure Vesper was assigned to that game, and it would be impossible to figure that out far enough in advance to get that setup.


You make some good points there! I keep thinking back to the shower scene and it kind of doesn't make sense. It's like something more than just her being traumatized happened.

So you're saying it doesn't look like she got blackmailed until after the stairwell fight happened? Like she went back to tell Mathis about hiding the bodies (Bond commanded her to) but Mathis or Le Chiffre or somebody working for the unknown org. told her that her b/f is being held captive and that she must co-operate and tell them of the secrets Bond knows...I just looked back through the movie and found that Le Chiffre did his little bluffing trick to make Bond lose *right after* the shower scene. Plus, she refused to give him the 5 mil. dollars after this as well as knowing Bond was poisoned (that's why she looked at him funny while he was drinking the poisoned drink as well as appearing in the parking lot out of no where - because she knew he needed help and wanted to save him since he helped her at the shower scene) and the tracker implant in his arm! I think you're right about this.

By the way, I thought there was a possibility that the unknown org. found out about Bond joining the poker games and thought he would be a danger (Le Chiffre was seen looking at the news of Bond at that Embassy blow-up scene, so I assumed the whole unknown org. knows about it, too). Then they knew who he was working with and blackmailed Vesper. They seem like a pretty powerful organisation so spying and finding out who's working with Bond early enough before the train scene was reasonable. Your theory seems to be more likely though.




I wonder if she was a wreck not only because she saw blood and death in front of her for the first time, but because, if your theory is right, she just found out her lover b/f was taken prisoner. But why would she be saying stuff about blood being on her hands if her break-down was not due to the killing-related trauma. Just a cover up of why she was breaking down so Bond wouldn't suspect it?

And the broken wine glass you see as Bond enters the hotel room...could that have possibly been from the bad guys scaring her when they came to blackmail her and not just because she had a break-down? It wouldn't make sense for her to just break a wine glass because she saw blood and is traumatized...she would have just ran straight for the shower.

Edited by ralawar, 06 January 2007 - 05:46 AM.


#9 ralawar

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:53 AM

Hey, friend. Like you, my intitial repsonse upon joining CBn was to delve into the finer sides of the latest 007 adventure. I suffered from that for a while, as no one would reply to my posts. :D

It is a learning process here, as with other boards. Take the time to use the SEARCH function at the bottom of the screen for topics which, more-than-likely, have already been discussed.

Then, pick-and-choose those topics to re-spawn them with your quote. You will win big points :angry: with the 'regulars' here (of which, I am only a pittiful beginner).

Darn, there I go again, ramble, ramble, ramble.

Quick ralawar, take this message before I..I..I..
:cooltongue:


hehe...this movie has been my first obsession to get solved. I don't know if it was bad movie-making or evil writers who made the movie ambiguous, but I hope to put my mind, as well as others, at ease.

I thought about replying to each post, but I wanted to bring all the information together so the readers could see what people have gathered instead of discussions of the same topic being spread out and unorganized. Plus, this movie is all like a big puzzle. Figuring things out on one portion of the movie may help in solving other areas, so I thought putting them close together in one thread would help accomplish that (as well as making navigation easier :lol:).

#10 bill007

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:58 AM

ralawar, you are truely gifted. Ever kissed the Blarney Stone? Such loquacious epiphany. :cooltongue:

#11 bill007

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 06:16 AM

hehe...this movie has been my first obsession to get solved. I don't know if it was bad movie-making or evil writers who made the movie ambiguous, but I hope to put my mind, as well as others, at ease.


ralawar...you will not find "others" here. Your tone sounds strangely familiar....

Edited by bill007, 06 January 2007 - 06:17 AM.


#12 ralawar

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 07:20 AM

hehe...this movie has been my first obsession to get solved. I don't know if it was bad movie-making or evil writers who made the movie ambiguous, but I hope to put my mind, as well as others, at ease.


ralawar...you will not find "others" here. Your tone sounds strangely familiar....


what do you mean I won't find "others"?

I don't know why my tone sounds familiar to you, but I'm sure I've never met you before...

#13 ralawar

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:23 AM

I just thought about something for #6 that doesn't make sense...

Bond checked Vesper's phone before going to the bank to stop her and saw that she had a msg that said "Meet me in 30 min", but when Bond later checks her phone, the message on Vesper's phone was new...how could it be a new msg from Vesper (and to Vesper? wtf?) if Bond checked the phone before she died and found nothing...but after she dies w/o ever returning to her phone, she somehow text msgs herself? It's gotta be a msg from someone other than Vesper.

#14 bill007

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 05:11 PM

hehe...this movie has been my first obsession to get solved. I don't know if it was bad movie-making or evil writers who made the movie ambiguous, but I hope to put my mind, as well as others, at ease.


ralawar...you will not find "others" here. Your tone sounds strangely familiar....


what do you mean I won't find "others"?

I don't know why my tone sounds familiar to you, but I'm sure I've never met you before...


I meant that you are here with friends (not others), and that you remind me of me in a way (familiar).

See you on 'the boards.'
:cooltongue:

#15 ralawar

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 05:59 AM

Great news!

After days of endless pondering, skipping through CR, and info. gathering, I was finally able to answer almost all these questions with great certainty (Somewhere around 95% sure).

1. When did Vesper Lynd get blackmailed? Before meeting with Bond on the train or at the torture scene or perhaps at a different part of the movie?

She was blackmailed between the stairwell fight scene and the shower scene.

Evidence:
1) Every action Vesper takes before this those two scenes show absolutely no hints or suspicious activity that would lead anyone to suspect Vesper a traitor.

2) During the shower scene, a broken wine glass is shown (a sign of trouble). It is most likely that it was broken by Vesper due to her being surprised or horrified while Bond was downstairs playing poker.

What probably happend was:

Bond goes back to playing poker after changing shirts and washing off the blood + Vesper goes to tell Mathis to get rid of the corpses
------> Bond plays poker for a few hours after his little "weeping blood" statement + Vesper drinks wine to help her ease her experience with witnessing the deaths
------> More poker playing for Bond + Vesper gets blackmailed by Le Chiffre (M tells specifies Le Chiffre was the one who blackmailed Vesper at the end of the movie, *not* Mr. White)
------> More poker playing for Bond + Vesper tells Le Chiffre about Bond's knowledge of the twitching&hiding "tell" Le Chiffre does when he's bluffing (which leads to evidence #3)

A little blood and killing is would not send Vesper to a depression in the shower...but knowing her boyfriend was being held captive by terrorists and knowing that she has to actually help them would easily cause her to be devestated enough to shower with clothes on.

3) Le Chiffre immediately does his fake bluff after the shower scene. (Having 4 of a kind beats most hands, so it was a perfect time to use the fake bluff and beat Bond - which he does).

4) If you watch Vesper closely after the shower scene, she shows little hints of treachery. For example, when Mathis tells her that Le Chiffre is doing his bluffing "tell", she looks worried instead of hopeful because she knows Le Chiffre is fooling Bond.



2 and 3. Why did Vesper act superior and condescending to Bond up until he was recovering from the torture? Then she acted like she totally in to him out of nowhere, why? The she's all lovely-dovey with him? Why did Vesper fall in love with Bond? and why did Bond fall in love with Vesper?

Vesper first prejudged Bond as being a apathetic, souless, egotistic tool of the country and queen that only thinks of women as objects instead of human beings. On th e other hand, Bond found her to be a smart, beautiful woman who was a really good challenge.

Then comes the shower scene where Bond shows his sympathetic side. He becomes more human and less of what she expected him to be. At the same time, Bond sees her vulnerable side that she hides with the aggresive personality she showed towards him before.

There was a time where Vesper drank the "Vesper martini" and she seemed to enjoy it, giving some respect to Bond. She was also impressed by him beating Le Chiffre at the final poker game.

Bond named a martini after her and told her the line about once you taste a Vesper martini, it's all you'll want to drink.

When Bond nearly dies due to the poison, instead of worrying about himself, he asked Vesper if she was okay as if she mattered more to him then even himself!

There was also the VESPER password that showed her he cared and thought about her as being of great value to him.

There was also the moment Vesper told Bond of how he looks at her as if he hadn't seen her for years, making her feel "reborn."

There was his romantic lines like the one where he declares himself Vesper's as well as the line about him wanting to salvage whatever remained of his soul.

As for Bond, he found her very mysterious/enigmatic and very similar to himself.

All these things made them fall in love with each other.

(The part where she loves him out of nowhere is explained in the answer to question #4).



4. What was Vesper's plan at the end? What was she going to do about her b/f? With the money? etc.

If you take a look back at the torture scene, you can see that Gettler (The guy at the end of the movie who meets with Vesper to get the money. He was the one with the glasses with one dark lense.) goes into a seperate room with Vesper while Le Chiffre and Bond are in the other room.

Vesper must have already given the account number to Le Chiffre because that's why she had her life risked when she was tied up on the road (Le Chiffre had already used her for helping him try to win the game and got the account number from her, so she had no other uses left). The reason Vesper was screaming was because they were torturing her too (hence the bandages wrapped around her left fingers after the torture scene) for the password, but she didn't know it.

When Mr. White found out that Le Chiffre made contact with the Americans (CIA) to give them information about the organisation, Mr. White came to the torture lair (I assume Mr. White is a very good spy or has good connections so that's how he knew where the torture lair is) to kill Le Chiffre before he has a chance to give any information away incase he doesn't break bond and get the money. The fact that giving away the organisation's info. was a break of trust that Mr. White valued more than the money (that's what he says afterall).

After Mr. White killed Le Chiffre, Bond passes out due to falling back and hitting his head on the ground. Mr. White must have left after that.

While this was happening, Vesper must have made a deal with Gettler to get them the money if they let Bond live (Vesper was already dead at this point because she knew too much and the unknown organisation would never let her be free. M even mentioned that Vesper knew she was going to her death when she would return to them with the money). So, I take back the theory I suggested before about Vesper just saving her own butt. Even though she worked with the bad guys, it was obviously not from desire. She didn't love Bond at this point, but she definetly cared about him and has morals good enough to save Bond's life...twice (The deal described here and the poisoned martini scene).

She then tries to seduce Bond after the torture scene (that's why the sudden change of heart that she shows) to get the money from him. She then falls in love with him, though, a little later.


5. Why did she kill herself?

She gave up on trying to save her boyfriend of the past (That's why she stopped wearing the Algerian love-knot) because she knew she knew she was going to die anyway since she knew too much and the organisation would never free her boyfriend.

When Bond kills the bad guys, she knows that he'll never love her again because Bond told her he loved her because she was the only person he could trust and she had betrayed him (even if it saved his life, she still betrayed him).

She had lost both her lovers and nothing to live in except shame, guilt, and heartbreak.



6. What is with the text message at the end that reads "For James: Mr White..."? How did Vesper send the text message to her own phone if she was the one who left? Did she just send it to herself because it says "New Message" as if someone sent it to her instead of the message just being stored on the phone? There was no "From:" portion of the message, so did she really recieve the message or what?

Still makes no sense...

7. Did Vesper leave her phone back at the bedroom on purpose?

Yes, it is discussed in the end during the conversation between Bond and M. It also explains why her phone had a message for James Bond.

8. During the drowning scene, when Vesper was putting her face against Bond's hands, why did she get forced back to the back-side of the elevator all of a sudden?

Still not sure about this one...I think it was just a strong current rushing in that surprised her & caused her to gasp a bunch of water and drown.



***Few last notes:

-Mathis is most likely innocent. He showed absolutely no signs of suspicous activity. Vesper was the one who told Le Chiffre about Bond's knowledge of the bluff "tell" and the implanted tracker (She saw it during the poisoned martini scene). Bond only thinks he's guilty because he no longer trusts anyone (the whole point of the movie).

-Vesper's boyfriend seems to have played a big role in her life. He could have been the reason why she was so prejudice with Bond at the beginning of their encounter. It is also possible that her relationship with him would have something to do with Vesper's suicide. We'll have to see when the next movie comes out...

#16 bill007

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 06:26 AM

Good points ralawar. Here's my take, on your takes...

1. When did Vesper Lynd get blackmailed? Before meeting with Bond on the train or at the torture scene or perhaps at a different part of the movie?

She was wearing the Algerian Loveknot necklace during the train scene. Therefore, she was already entangled. Perhaps not yet knowingly. I believe she was turned just before the shower scene.

2 and 3. Why did Vesper act superior and condescending to Bond up until he was recovering from the torture? Then she acted like she totally in to him out of nowhere, why? Then she's all lovely-dovey with him? Why did Vesper fall in love with Bond? and why did Bond fall in love with Vesper?

She was still after the password. Then Bond tells her he loves her. Something that the boyfriend didn't say to her, judging by her reaction.

4. What was Vesper's plan at the end? What was she going to do about her b/f? With the money? etc.
If you take a look back at the torture scene, you can see that Gettler (The guy at the end of the movie who meets with Vesper to get the money. He was the one with the glasses with one dark lense.) goes into a seperate room with Vesper while Le Chiffre and Bond are in the other room.

Was that REALLY Gettler? I missed that. Looked like a regular henchman, like Kratt, maybe.

5. Why did she kill herself?

Shame/guilt over double-crossing the man who told her that he loved her.

6. What is with the text message at the end that reads "For James: Mr White..."? How did Vesper send the text message to her own phone if she was the one who left? Did she just send it to herself because it says "New Message" as if someone sent it to her instead of the message just being stored on the phone? There was no "From:" portion of the message, so did she really recieve the message or what?

She knew she was headed for danger. If she died, she knew Bond would go through her belongings. If she survived, she would delete the message.

7. Did Vesper leave her phone back at the bedroom on purpose?

Yes.

8. During the drowning scene, when Vesper was putting her face against Bond's hands, why did she get forced back to the back-side of the elevator all of a sudden?

She pushed herself away, unworthy of Bond's love.

-Mathis is most likely innocent.

Agreed.

-Vesper's boyfriend seems to have played a big role in her life. He could have been the reason why she was so prejudice with Bond at the beginning of their encounter. It is also possible that her relationship with him would have something to do with Vesper's suicide. We'll have to see when the next movie comes out...

Bring on Bond 22!

Edited by bill007, 07 January 2007 - 06:33 AM.


#17 ralawar

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 07:05 AM

She was wearing the Algerian Loveknot necklace during the train scene. Therefore, she was already entangled. Perhaps not yet knowingly. I believe she was turned just before the shower scene.


what do you mean by this? she was blackmailed but hadn't decided to betray bond until the shower scene? why? what do you think the necklace means?

She was still after the password. Then Bond tells her he loves her. Something that the boyfriend didn't say to her, judging by her reaction.


yup, that explains why she tried to seduce him after the torture scene.

She was surprised that Bond loved her cause first she thought he'd never take his armor off and yet she removed it, and now she suddenly somehow made him very human.

I don't understand where the boyfriend comes in here. could u explain?



Was that REALLY Gettler? I missed that. Looked like a regular henchman, like Kratt, maybe.


Nope, that was mistake. I thought it was Gettler, but it was Kratt. They look similar.

Shame/guilt over double-crossing the man who told her that he loved her.


Agreed.

She knew she was headed for danger. If she died, she knew Bond would go through her belongings. If she survived, she would delete the message.


Yeah but if she left the message, Bond would have seen it opened up her phone before he followed her bank. If it was after that...she was dead so she couldn't leave it then.



She pushed herself away, unworthy of Bond's love.


That could be it, but why did she gasp and look surprised? It seems like some outside force pushed/pulled her to the other side of the door.

#18 bill007

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 07:35 AM

Well done on your quote skills ralawar, Your a handy person, indeed. Replies as follows:

what do you mean by this? she was blackmailed but hadn't decided to betray bond until the shower scene? why? what do you think the necklace means?

The necklace symbolizes that she was tied to "The Organisation," but may have not yet been forced to be 'dirty.' I had intially thought that she was dirty from the get-go, but have since considered, through other opinions here at CBn, that Vesper was a mole, of sorts, to be used by "The Organisation" at some later point. That point being when Bond beat le Chiffre in the final match.

I don't understand where the boyfriend comes in here. could u explain?

Vesper is a person. She lives and breaths just like the rest of us. In so doing, she had to fullfill her oblgation to "The Organization," of which, her boyfriend was part of.

Yeah but if she left the message, Bond would have seen it opened up her phone before he followed her bank. If it was after that...she was dead so she couldn't leave it then.

Bond did not venture further after the "meet in 30 minutes" message. He later did so.

That could be it, but why did she gasp and look surprised? It seems like some outside force pushed/pulled her to the other side of the door.

Bollocks. No outside force. She pushed herself away, symbolically as we see it, suggesting her ultimate fate. She looked suprised because she was actually drowning. I'd look the same way, wouldn't you? :cooltongue:

#19 Garmt

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 12:16 PM

She knew she was headed for danger. If she died, she knew Bond would go through her belongings. If she survived, she would delete the message.


Yeah but if she left the message, Bond would have seen it opened up her phone before he followed her bank. If it was after that...she was dead so she couldn't leave it then.


Isn't it possible that she sent a message to herself from one of those public sms machines? Especially on a crowded square near a bank, it wouldn't be surprising to find a public phone booth with an sms service.

Garmt de Vries.

#20 the villain's architect

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 03:16 PM

1. When did Vesper Lynd get blackmailed? Before meeting with Bond on the train or at the torture scene or perhaps at a different part of the movie?

She was blackmailed by an organisation who told her that they would kill her Algerian boyfriend if she didn't do what they wanted. Her contact was Mr. White.
In the book it is a Polish boyfriend and the Russian SMERSH organisation, but the motivation is the same.
It's even possible that she had an influence at the treasury in the decision to send an agent playing poker against Le Chiffre (I know, she plays to be skeptical on the train, but I think she had her orders at that time).
She didn't give him the money (with the excuse she had put up in the train before) because her mission was completed and it would have been the best way for Bond and her to drop out of the situation. Even if she never could be sure not to be killed because she had had contact with Mr. White.

2. Why did Vesper act superior and condescending to Bond up until he was recovering from the torture? Then she acted like she totally in to him out of nowhere, why? The she's all lovely-dovey with him?


Since the shower scene they had growing feelings for each other: Bond took care about her when she had lost her superiority. But because she was blackmailed, she still acted cold.

3. Why did Vesper fall in love with Bond? and why did Bond fall in love with Vesper?

The film is very convincing about this IMO.

4. What was Vesper's plan at the end? What was she going to do about her b/f? With the money? etc.


a) With the little hope for her to survive, she wanted to give the money to the organisation and hope they would let her Algerian boyfriend go. She then could go back to Bond and tell him that she betrayed him and the gouvernment. But she knew that was not very realistic.

:cooltongue: After the delivery of the money to Gettler, she was quite sure they would kill her. She felt guilty and didn't really care about her life anymore. After her death the organisation's promise about her Algerian boyfriend was worth nothing, too. All she was for now was to sacrifice herself for Bond and give him a last hint to revenge her (and her boyfriend) and get the money back from Mr. White.

5. Why did she kill herself?

a) She had to think Bond didn't love her anymore because of her betrayal.
:angry: She didn't want to go on living with the guilt.
c) With Mr. White still around, she wanted to save Bond's live with her death because Mr. White would kill Bond if she survived, assuming she could be questioned by Bond and talk about him (What she did with her sms after she died).

6. What is with the text message at the end that reads "For James: Mr White..."? How did Vesper send the text message to her own phone if she was the one who left? Did she just send it to herself because it says "New Message" as if someone sent it to her instead of the message just being stored on the phone? There was no "From:" portion of the message, so did she really recieve the message or what?


Freedom of storytelling.
Or a mistake like in those cheap TV-series we see every day.
What you prefer.

7. Did Vesper leave her phone back at the bedroom on purpose?

Yes.

8. Just curious...during the drowning scene, when Vesper was putting her face against Bond's hands, why did she get forced back to the back-side of the elevator all of a sudden?


A last gesture of love to him and a last flickering of her will to live. Then with a scream she pushes herself out of Bond's reach and commits suicide.

Vesper's torture:
Even if they tortured her: I'm quite sure she told them the account number very fast. Did she have a reason not to tell? No. Her mission was to let Le Chiffre win (she failed). So he had to get the money otherwise. In the book Vesper is an ally of Le Chiffre. With Le Chiffre turning her into the obstacle on the road many of us believe in the movie she is only connected with Mr. White.
So what did she think when they were tortured? We don't know. All we know is that she didn't have big wounds so the torture couldn't have been very intense.

#21 ralawar

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 02:02 AM

I guess Vesper's bitter attitude at the beginning could have been due to her being blackmailed as architect suggests. Maybe Bond seemed similar to her blackmailers in her eyes at the time.


I thought that Algerian love-knot necklace was just a symbol of Vesper's boyfriend's love for her. Maybe you mean it shows that she's so devoted to her boyfriend that she is willing to be a mole and keeps the necklace as a reminder of who she's doing all this crap for.

Also, I looked back at the drowning scene again. I can see that she really did push herself back and it looks like she held on to the railing at the back. Kinda weird that she let out a little scream as she pushed herself back (bad acting maybe? lol) and that she reached out with one hand as she died...I guess it was a sign for goodbye or love or something...