15 replies to this topic

[JCRendle]

Ok, at the end of the film M says Vesper made a deal with Mr. White to keep Bond alive. However something, to me atleast, doesn't seem right.

If Mr. White came for the money he would need Bond alive anyway (Bond being the sole person who knows the password) and the deal would have been pointless.

Could this have been M trying to make Vesper seem less as a traitor to Bond (because M knew Bond had fallen in lover with her) as she could have?

[George Kaplan]

A possible thought is that Mr. White originally intended to kill Bond (for crossing an associate; might be bad for business to let that go unanswered) and Le Chiffre (for crossing him and the group he worked for) but that Vesper basically traded the money (and herself; her duplicity would be obvious in retrospect) for Bond.

But it could have been M trying to soften the blow. Could also be an indication that there are even more complex things at work which future films could unravel.

[MarcAngeDraco]

If Mr. White came for the money he would need Bond alive anyway (Bond being the sole person who knows the password) and the deal would have been pointless.

IMO, Mr. White isn't coming for the money, he's simply coming to kill LeChiffre (since he has 'disgraced' the organisation). Much like in the novel when the SMERSH assassin comes to kill LeChiffre and makes no attempt to get the money.

[EL7]

I think White was there to kill LeChiffre and get the money. Even with Steven Obanno dead, his army's new leader would want answers as to what has happened to the money. So Mr. White tracks down LeChiffre, gets to Vesper first and she explains that Bond has won it and all they have to do is get Bond to give it up. While Mr. White would do it his way, maybe fruther torture, Vesper tells him her way would be easier and leave none the wiser until it was too late. And White figures she'll do it as they have her boyfriend. Then he can pay back the 'freedom fighters' and perserve the organization's reputation.

Edited by EL7, 02 December 2006 - 04:44 PM.

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

He probably could've gotten more money.

Remember, he says 'money isn't as important to us as knowing who to trust.'

[skewered lamb]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think I've finally figured this out. I saw the movie again this weekend and these were my thoughts afterwards.

Mr. White and his Organization's original intent when they blackmailed Vesper was for her to do what she could to help LeChiffre win. To this end she took three deliberate actions:

1. Vesper revealed that Bond knew LeChiffre's tell. Later, on the beach, she is surprised and uncomfortable when Bond informs her Mathis was responsible for giving LeChiffre the information. She feels guilty because she is the one responsible, and her actions have caused collateral damage in implicating Mathis. Vesper is also conflicted because she's afraid Bond will discover her on-going deception despite her feelings for him. She appeared unware that Bond had MI6 grab Mathis from the hospital.

2. Vesper refused Bond the re-buy. In doing so she effectively eliminated Bond as LeChiffre's primary competitor, at least until Leiter provided CIA backing for the re-buy. On the balcony, after Bond loses the original 10 million, he tells her he'll need the additional 5 million but she tells him she can't. It's only after Bond calls her an idiot that she gives her reason for refusal as Bond's ego. Bond's ego = imprudent investment to an uncorrupted Treasury official = valid reason for refusal, though frustrating as heck for Bond.

3. Vesper revealed that Bond had a tracking device. It makes no sense that Mathis told anyone because he had no way of knowing about it! Vesper did, however, because she found out about it when she saved Bond. Vesper may be many things but she's not a killer.

When Bond won the game, both LeChiffre and Vesper had failed Mr. White and the Organization. Recovering the money was the least of the Organization's worries. LeChiffre was about to be taken by the CIA and was, therefore, a liability. LeChiffre's last ditched effort to recover the money, by torturing Bond and Vesper, was too little too late. Vesper, on the other hand, convinces Mr. White of her continued value by pointing out the money need not be lost. This is when she makes her deal: Bond's life for the money.

I find the scene at the hospital when Vesper tells Bond he can have her and Bond replies with something like (very badly paraphrased), "I'm trying to think of a word to describe how you've felt for me up until now other than loathing" really interesting. My impression is that Vesper is playing Bond here, and only really caves in to feeling something real for him AFTER he reveals the password and says he's hers (the "I have no armour left" line). I believe it's at that moment she decides not to turn the money over to Mr. White and the Organization (though she does nothing to get herself out of her dilemna either), and try to live a life with Bond. OF course, that's shattered when Gettler arrives in Venice to remind her she will never be free.

[Navy007Fan]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think I've finally figured this out. I saw the movie again this weekend and these were my thoughts afterwards.

Mr. White and his Organization's original intent when they blackmailed Vesper was for her to do what she could to help LeChiffre win. To this end she took three deliberate actions:

1. Vesper revealed that Bond knew LeChiffre's tell. Later, on the beach, she is surprised and uncomfortable when Bond informs her Mathis was responsible for giving LeChiffre the information. She feels guilty because she is the one responsible, and her actions have caused collateral damage in implicating Mathis. Vesper is also conflicted because she's afraid Bond will discover her on-going deception despite her feelings for him. She appeared unware that Bond had MI6 grab Mathis from the hospital.

2. Vesper refused Bond the re-buy. In doing so she effectively eliminated Bond as LeChiffre's primary competitor, at least until Leiter provided CIA backing for the re-buy. On the balcony, after Bond loses the original 10 million, he tells her he'll need the additional 5 million but she tells him she can't. It's only after Bond calls her an idiot that she gives her reason for refusal as Bond's ego. Bond's ego = imprudent investment to an uncorrupted Treasury official = valid reason for refusal, though frustrating as heck for Bond.

3. Vesper revealed that Bond had a tracking device. It makes no sense that Mathis told anyone because he had no way of knowing about it! Vesper did, however, because she found out about it when she saved Bond. Vesper may be many things but she's not a killer.

When Bond won the game, both LeChiffre and Vesper had failed Mr. White and the Organization. Recovering the money was the least of the Organization's worries. LeChiffre was about to be taken by the CIA and was, therefore, a liability. LeChiffre's last ditched effort to recover the money, by torturing Bond and Vesper, was too little too late. Vesper, on the other hand, convinces Mr. White of her continued value by pointing out the money need not be lost. This is when she makes her deal: Bond's life for the money.

I find the scene at the hospital when Vesper tells Bond he can have her and Bond replies with something like (very badly paraphrased), "I'm trying to think of a word to describe how you've felt for me up until now other than loathing" really interesting. My impression is that Vesper is playing Bond here, and only really caves in to feeling something real for him AFTER he reveals the password and says he's hers (the "I have no armour left" line). I believe it's at that moment she decides not to turn the money over to Mr. White and the Organization (though she does nothing to get herself out of her dilemna either), and try to live a life with Bond. OF course, that's shattered when Gettler arrives in Venice to remind her she will never be free.

Great post!!! I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Gri007]

Not to sure where to put this, but after seeing Casino Royale, the third time I noticed that when Mandles comes and see's Bond and Vesper at lake Como. Vespers fingers are in splynth and bandaged up. Could this be a result to the torture scene. Perhaps she had a little finger broke?

[Melanie]

I'm not 100% certain, but I think I've finally figured this out. I saw the movie again this weekend and these were my thoughts afterwards.

I saw the film again and came on here, because there were still some unanswered questions. What totally went over my head the first time was the removing of the tracking device and how they could have possibly known? It also wasn't clear to me how Mr. White knows the location of the torture chamber and that it is the place were Vesper made the deal, though that must have happened in a matter of seconds, after or before the two shots can be heard?

Also Vesper enters a holding account number, before Bond reveals the password yes? Both times I got the impression, that she knew fully well that she would meet Gettler. Just not that particular day, their arrival, as this would explain her shattered look. But Gettler and Mr. White would have had no way of knowing they were sailing to Venice, if Vesper hadn't told them post the beach, were they made plans to sail around the world. Or was The Organization trailing them? And how did she know were Gettler wanted to meet her, if it was her intention not to give the money back? His text message only ordered her to meet him in thirty minutes, so that indicates to me, that she was in contact with either White (his phone number on her mobile) or Gettler between the beach scenes and Venice.


Otherwise your thoughts make the most sense to me and these theories are going to be what I'll go with the third time I intend to watch the film. It's wonderful that the story has a lot of layers and that the audience needs to think.

Edited by Melanie, 05 December 2006 - 01:16 PM.

[skewered lamb]

I saw the film again and came on here, because there were still some unanswered questions. What totally went over my head the first time was the removing of the tracking device and how they could have possibly known? It also wasn't clear to me how Mr. White knows the location of the torture chamber and that it is the place were Vesper made the deal, though that must have happened in a matter of seconds, after or before the two shots can be heard?

When I saw it the first time I couldn't figure out how LeChiffre knew about the tracking device either, and Bond's explanation that Mathis told LeChiffre made no sense (especially knowing Mathis is Bond's friend in the book). On second viewing, I realized Vesper hears Bond talking to MI6 after she connects the defibrillator lead, and sees the probe inserted in Bond's arm. She's a smart cookie and puts two and two together.

When LeChiffre's Skyfleet plan blew up in his face, Mr. White would have impressed upon LeChiffre how short a leash he was now operating on. Don't forget, Mr. White's Organization, while not guaranteeing LeChiffre's trustworthiness to Obanno, does have a reputation to uphold. I'm certain Mr. White was never far away in Montenegro and knew pretty much everything that was going on. As soon as LeChiffre lost the game he became expendable, not just because he'd sullied Mr. White and the Organization's reputation, but because he was being taken by the CIA the next morning. It was contingent upon Mr. White to eliminate the liability ASAP, so he followed LeChiffre.

Vesper had also failed Mr. White: she was unable to remove Bond as a competitor from the game, but worse, she actually saved him when she could have just let him die (from Mr. White's point of view). Vesper's clever; when LeChiffre lost the game she'd have worked out quickly that her value to Mr. White was non-existant unless she could get the money from Bond. She knew her moment of reckoning was coming; Mr. White's arrival at the barge set the time and place. It's unclear when Vesper and Mr. White made their deal but if LeChiffre's killing is any indication, she may have had a moment when he first arrived to say, "Bond trusts me, I can get the money from him" before Mr. White killed Valenka and the henchman. Or, possibly, Mr. White simply eliminated those he considered immediate threats (Bond, and we assume Vesper, were both tied up for torture) before dealing with Vesper and Bond afterwards. Either way, I think it works.

Also Vesper enters a holding account number, before Bond reveals the password yes?.

Yes.

Both times I got the impression, that she knew fully well that she would meet Gettler. Just not that particular day, their arrival, as this would explain her shattered look. But Gettler and Mr. White would have had no way of knowing they were sailing to Venice, if Vesper hadn't told them post the beach, were they made plans to sail around the world. Or was The Organization trailing them? And how did she know were Gettler wanted to meet her, if it was her intention not to give the money back? His text message only ordered her to meet him in thirty minutes, so that indicates to me, that she was in contact with either White (his phone number on her mobile) or Gettler between the beach scenes and Venice.

I think Vesper always knew that the Organization would catch up to her and she'd have to turn the money over, but I think she also hoped she'd have more time with Bond before they did. She acted through her inaction - she didn't voluntarily contact them to turn the money over as soon as she had access to it. From the moment Bond reveals the password to her, Vesper is a tragic character exploring her unexpected feelings for Bond knowing she's living on borrowed time. She ignores her ever-approaching doom for one last chance at love.

To this end, I don't believe she kept Mr. White up to date on their travel plans. Vesper certainly recognizes Gettler in Venice and I think her shattered look stems from knowing the end is near (including Bond's discovery of her deceit). Mr. White/Gettler/the Organization, at the very least, tracked them down after they left the hospital, if they weren't actually following them. As for how Vesper knew where to meet Gettler, I simply assumed she understood to go to the bank so they could access the funds.


Gri007, I've never noticed the splints on Vesper's fingers at the hospital. I'll have to keep an eye out for that next viewing. Great catch!

Edited by skewered lamb, 05 December 2006 - 04:19 PM.

[Melanie]

As for how Vesper knew where to meet Gettler, I simply assumed she understood to go to the bank so they could access the funds.

Doesn't she go to the bank alone and withdraws the funds? I thought so, as she is walking alone with attach

[Odyssey]

Short selling is effectively betting that the price of the securities or shares involved will fall. The way it works is roughly thus:

The investor (Le Chiffre) does not actually own the shares concerned.
Instead, Le Chiffre borrows the shares from a third party, then immediately sells them on for a substantial sum, as the price will be high at this point.
When the price of the shares falls, Le Chiffre must buy them back at a lower price, then return them to the original lender of the shares.

The difference in price between the sale of the shares at a high price and the repurchase at a lower one is then Le Chiffre's to keep.
The shares are then returned to the lender. (Depending on the loan agreement, the lender may take a percentage of the gain, or require payments of interest on account of the loan).

The problem for Le Chiffre in CR was that the share price did not fall, as the Skyfleet plane was not destroyed. As a term of the original loan agreement, he would be bound to buy back the shares he sold, whether or not the price fell. Therefore, he not only made no profit on the deal, but also had to fork out for the higher share price at the time of repurchase.

My understanding is that Obanno would have had no input whatsoever into the short-selling scam, as it merely seemed to be Le Chiffre's way of maximizing returns on the investments he was holding.

Hope this is clear enough!

Edited by Odyssey, 06 December 2006 - 10:50 AM.

[Mr_Wint]

Short selling is effectively betting that the price of the securities or shares involved will fall. The way it works is roughly thus:

The investor (Le Chiffre) does not actually own the shares concerned.
Instead, Le Chiffre borrows the shares from a third party, then immediately sells them on for a substantial sum, as the price will be high at this point.
When the price of the shares falls, Le Chiffre must buy them back at a lower price, then return them to the original lender of the shares.

The difference in price between the sale of the shares at a high price and the repurchase at a lower one is then Le Chiffre's to keep.
The shares are then returned to the lender. (Depending on the loan agreement, the lender may take a percentage of the gain, or require payments of interest on account of the loan).

The problem for Le Chiffre in CR was that the share price did not fall, as the Skyfleet plane was not destroyed. As a term of the original loan agreement, he would be bound to buy back the shares he sold, whether or not the price fell. Therefore, he not only made no profit on the deal, but also had to fork out for the higher share price at the time of repurchase.

My understanding is that Obanno would have had no input whatsoever into the short-selling scam, as it merely seemed to be Le Chiffre's way of maximizing returns on the investments he was holding.

Hope this is clear enough!

Thanks for explaining!

But one thing I dont understand. What happens if the sale price doesn't change at all? This means no profit, but how can Le Chiffre still lose so much money? Why is the share price so much higher at the time of repurchase?

[Odyssey]

If the share price does not alter, then the repurchase should be at the original price the shares were sold - as you say, on a no-gain, no-loss basis. However, Le Chiffre would then also have to service the loan, that is, pay up interest or a fee to whomever he borrowed the securities from, most likely a broker.

My understanding of what happened in the film is that the stock actually increased in value after the unveiling of the Skyfleet plane (there's a scene with LC's broker, isn't there, where he says something along the lines of "this stock isn't going to go anywhere but up"...) If the stock price rose, as I think it must have done for the loss to be so massive, then LC would be doubly out of pocket, firstly with servicing the loan agreement, and secondly with having to pay handsomely to buy back the shares he sold.

[skewered lamb]

[quote name='Melanie' post='663924' date='6 December 2006 - 05:14']
Doesn't she go to the bank alone and withdraws the funds? I thought so, as she is walking alone with attach

[Melanie]

My understanding is that Obanno would have had no input whatsoever into the short-selling scam, as it merely seemed to be Le Chiffre's way of maximizing returns on the investments he was holding.

So Le Chiffre was to invest Obanno's money, but did not use it for the short-selling scam? After my third viewing I thought LC might have used the money to buy back the SkyFleet shares at the higher price to return them to the original owner right away as per agreement, as he couldn't pay it out of his own pocket. So Obanno's money hasn't been invested to generate a profit, but used for the scam. Obanno somehow got wind of this and tracks him down in Montenegro to get his money back. It's pretty embarrasing still not to have a clear understanding of the situation. Also can anybody tell me if they deliberately removed the airbag to move the story along after the crash?