39 replies to this topic

[ckoch]

Good day fellow Casino fans

Much like you, I have already been out to see Casino Royale in theatres (twice on the first day in fact) and did enjoy many of the aspects of the film. It was quite a departure from the Brosnan films of reliance on CGI and over the top villians and schemes of world domination.

Those feelings aside though, I was confused about one scene in particular in Casino. After the elevator submerges underwater in the sinking house in Venice and Bond dives in to try and rescue Vesper, he can be seen trying to unlock (?) or unhook (?) a latch to open up the steel elevator doors and free a trapped Vesper. Immediately after this shot, I think we see a shot of Vesper, removing a key sitting in the lock (if I am not mistaken).

My question is why did she do this? Was it to ensure that Bond could not rescue her? Did Vesper not believe that by handing over the money to Gettler, that she and her Algerian lover would be both spared (contrary to what M says in her final phone call to Bond aboard the boat in Venice following Vesper's death)? If so, then why would she purposely remove this key or whatever it was from the lock and ensure that Bond could not save her and ultimately sumbit to her impending death?

Any thoughts on this one? I would love to hear your feelings regarding this scene.

Enjoy the film on 2nd, 3rd, 4th and repeat viewings all!

[deth]

well.... I don't know if you've read the book, but she commits suicide essentially because she can't handle the mental burden of what she's done. (if memory serves me correctly)

[bond_girl_double07]

Correct.. in the novel, she leaves a note for Bond saying she's a double agent and can't handle the guilt and shoots herself. I think this is one aspect of the film that suffers from the lack of SMERSH.. the reason for her suicide is so much more clear in the novel, it's really difficult to get a grasp on what's going on in that scene if you haven't read the book (especially since she didn't leave a note in the film).

Was anybody else really disturbed by her death btw? That whole bit where she's reaching out and screaming underwater was terrifying to me really horrible way to die...

[deth]

the death in this film was portrayed SO well.... the desperation and sadness was magnificently portrayed. Just great... the look on Bond's face as he's trying to open the elevator is amazing.... he finally can't make it in time...

I rather see this as the opposite of the Jinx drowning scene in DAD...

[ckoch]

Thank you deth & bond_girl_double07 for your thougths.

I have read the book and your memory does serve you correctly deth. I just thought that if she was going to commit suicide anyways, why would should not at least let James save her and then (like the book) take her own life later following this and leave him a letter?

I didn't like the motivation for her character drowning in the eleveator in Venice. I thought that this whole scene was just filler or an add on by the writers to give us one last action scene before the end of the film. I personally thought that they could have used this time to show Bond and Vepser spending happy time together in Venice in several different locations and over several days and have Gettler mysteriously pop in and out of Vesper's line of sight. That way the audience would believe that he was coming to remind her about the potential fate of her Algergian lover. Then to be more dramatic and in line with Fleming's narrative, they could have had Vesper commit suicide in their hotel room with the note being left for James. This scene would end and we could cut to the scene of Mr. White arriving at the beautiful villa on the lake and Bond gunning him down.

The other omission from the book that would have really driven the plot would have been Mathis and Bond's conversation during 007's recovery regarding the whole good guys and bad guys and something about killing those who would do you personal harm or something to that effect (for those of you who have read the novel).

[deth]

personally I wish the last line would still have been "the bitch is dead"... but that would never happen after OHMSS...

A hotel room death would have been better, but would have needed a lot more time to lead into it

[Mathis05]

Umm..in the book Vesper didn't shoot herself. She poisoned herself i believe.

[ckoch]

Mathis05 - you are right it was a drug overdose and not a gunshot suicide.

While you are right in that a hotel death would have been more suitable but required more lead time, perhaps some of the whole back story in Florida and the Bahamas could have been cut. I don't know.

A hotel suicide to me anyways would have seen as much more tragic and painful to Bond then Vesper's drowning in the elevator. The problem lies in the audience not knowing Vesper's motives for removing the key from the lock while underwater. At least with a drug overdose and a letter, it would be clearer to those who are not familiar with the book, that Vesper is a torn soul who is clearly struggling with her actions and feelings for both Bond and her former lover who is being held captive.

[deth]

yup... some or all of the scene of Bond winning the DB5 could have been cut... it seemed the audience didn't appreciate the DB5 anyway... maybe it didn't have the intended effect. Conversely the DBS got a huge "oooohhh" reaction.

[bond_girl_double07]

Oooo snap, you guys got me! I need to reread this book, poison it is! It's funny, in my brain I remembered gunshot but no blood.. which doesn't make any sense hehe

regardless, I still prefer the hotel death.. I think the fact that she was accidentally trapped in the elevator in the middle of an ambiguous set of actions (is she stealing the money? is she leaving bond or leaving the organization?) makes her death less powerful.. yes, she does decide to throw away the key, but it seems like a last minute decision.. still a powerful scene though..

[ComplimentsOfSharky]

Umm..in the book Vesper didn't shoot herself. She poisoned herself i believe.

Overdose on sleeping pills.

I liked the scene...but a few people I was with didn't understand why she did it either. I think you either get it or you don't...it's easy to explain, but hard to explain the magnitude of it I guess.

[K1Bond007]

Umm..in the book Vesper didn't shoot herself. She poisoned herself i believe.

I thought she overdosed.

[ckoch]

Don't get me wrong. I did think it was a truly powerful scene despite the departure from the book and it was much better played then the Bond/Jinx drowning scene in DAD or even the Way Lin/Bond drowning scene in TND (do you see a similiar reoccuring pattern here?), but as you said ComplimentsOfSharky, not too many people understood what was going on here and it made it a little more muddled for the audience to perhaps appreciate and really feel even more for the tortured mental state of Vesper at this point in the film.

Well acted by both Craig and Green though. Cudos to them!

[blueman]

I thought it was actually more dramatic for Vesper to be facing Bond and making the choice she did. Then underwater, when she grabbed his hands and stopped him from saving her...a priceless moment.

There's just something about a building falling down around the characters' heads, very cinematic IMO. Love the way Fleming handles it in the novel, but don't have a problem with how the filmmakers changed things around. Worked for me I guess.

[bond_girl_double07]

I thought it was actually more dramatic for Vesper to be facing Bond and making the choice she did. Then underwater, when she grabbed his hands and stopped him from saving her...a priceless moment.

There's just something about a building falling down around the characters' heads, very cinematic IMO. Love the way Fleming handles it in the novel, but don't have a problem with how the filmmakers changed things around. Worked for me I guess.

Well said..

[Publius]

Aside from being unable to cope with the guilt, she was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either hand the money over to the bad guys and face the British government hunting her down, or not do so and have the bad guys try to kill her wherever she might hide. She also knew that Bond would not be forgiving in any case, so their talk of resigning and running around the world together was a hopeless fantasy.

[Bonita]

Not that it matters, but there is something very wrong with Vesper's death in the film. While well-acted, we have no clue what's really going on with her. And having seen the movie twice, I still don't. "I'm a complicated woman" she says. Indeed.

Vesper refuses Bond the funds to continue to play. Is this because Mr. White or Le Chiffre or she doesn't want Bond to buy back in? Hard to tell. It seems like it is up to her and her character does this. But if so, then it undercuts the love story tremendously. Actually, scratch that last "if". When Vesper refuses Bond the 2nd "buy-in" it severly hurts the potential for the love story.

So answer me this? Is Vesper in league with Le Chiffre when the kidnapping happens? That's what happens in the novel. But it is very unclear in the film (and I've seen it twice). M says Vesper made a deal to save Bond's life. With whom did she make the deal? Mr. White? Must be, because Le Chiffre is killed. But when? While Le Chiffre's men were torturing her? Because Le Chiffre and Mr. White are not on the same page.

Or did she make the deal with Le Chiffre? Give Le Chiffre Bond and the account number if he promised not to kill Bond?

Who is holding Vesper's Algerian boyfriend? They? Who is they? How did she know she was signing her own death warrent, as M claims? Even her cavalier leaving for the bank to deliver Mr. White the money is not clear. She leaves her mobile for Bond, which means she does not plan to return. Okay. But what is her plan? It's not to drown herself. Is it to kill herself? Is it to run away? And if she has given up on her Algerian lover and decided to fall in love with Bond, does she ever find out, as she does in the novel that he has supposedly been killed? Now I know in the CR script M claims that the lover may have been betraying her. She may have betrayed Bond for a lie.

Even Bond's motivation is clouded. He discovers Vesper's betrayal. When the man with the two-toned glasses yells, "I'll kill her." Bond replies, "Allow me." Now we can decide he has a change of heart. We can say he was speaking in momentary anger. But after this, Bond nearly drowns himself to save her.

All of these leaps and problems occure because the writers and filmmakers got a little too clever. As we know, in the novel, it is clear from Vesper's note what happens. The problem is how you reveal this to the audience. Do you let them know she is leading a double life earlier on and let Bond potentially seem like a fool for falling in love with her? Do you reveal all at the end as Fleming did? I don't know. But what is in the film does not quite work.

ALL that said, I LOVED THE MOVIE! And this ending works because Craig works so amazingly well as Bond. And these plot issues are only the result of seeing the film twice and thinking about it probably a little too much. It probably makes just as much sense as Goldfinger gathering the hoods, explaining his plot and killing them.

Keep dancing,
Bonita

[bond_girl_double07]

It probably makes just as much sense as Goldfinger gathering the hoods, explaining his plot and killing them.

Those hoods had it coming!!!

That's how cool Goldfinger is.. he's like "check out my plan.. see how good it is... wanna join? Too bad, now you die!!!" hehe


Very well thought-out review Bonita! Part of the ambiguity I enjoy because we're not being spoon-fed, we don't need to know every single detail, and the viewer has the ability to speculate (like we are now). I do agree that Vesper's motives when she leaves the bank are really bizarre, and I hadn't though about the extra money she refuses to give Bond.. very interesting.. is she tortured in the book as well as bond?

[Evil Doctor Cheese Returns]

personally I wish the last line would still have been "the bitch is dead"... but that would never happen after OHMSS...

A hotel room death would have been better, but would have needed a lot more time to lead into it

I think Bond should've revived her then Vesper pull his gun and shoot her self. So Bond and the audience new that she couldn't bear the guilt. That would've been great/better. I don't think everybody got that she killed herself - my parents certainly didn't.

That's probably my only criticism - that and the fact that making Mathis a possible baddie really muddied your handle on Vesper's motives. I think they tried to "nice" Vesper up too much. She's a cold hearted double agent trying to save her boyfriend then accidentally falls for Bond. She's not a victim of the organisation...she's a victim of herself and how she loves.

G x

[Craig'sGIrl]

I do believe Vesper really started falling for Bond when he gave her the password for the money. That action showed a level of trust that could only lead to love, a love she feel she didn't deserve but it also showed her how James Bond truly was: a man of honor.

I sincerely think she was trying to play both sides; to help Bond and keep the bad guys at bay. The thing with that is eventually a choice has to be made. She delayed the inevitable till Venice and in the end, she made the ultimate choice.

And I think the reason Bond tried to save her was not only out of some remenant of love but also to interrogate her, to find out who was pulling her strings.

It'll be intersting to see how this continues to reveberate in the next movie.

[ckoch]

Well done Bonita. Great post. At the end when you ask whether we should let the audience know she is leading a double life earlier on and let Bond potentially seem like a fool for falling in love with her? Do you reveal all at the end as Fleming did?

I think that not letting the audience onto her earlier in the film like you put forward (and how it played out on screen and in the novel) is the correct way to portray it. That being said, I think we should be able to see Craig's Bond both saddened at the loss of his love but also feel like he was played and much like a fool as you suggested. This is part of the learning curve that he undergoes throughout this film to become the 007 we all know later on in the series.

It should have been better communicated to the audience who do not have the background of the novel or the rest of the series perhaps for that matter that Vesper was struggling with her allegiance throughout the film and particularly in the last 1/3 or it. The book does a wonderful job of showing Vesper slipping in and out mentally of her and Bond's little vacation together following his recovery. She is absolutely distanced and lost it seems in another world at times in the book contemplating her lover's fate as well as the choice of double crossing James but at the same time, she does seem incredibly passionate and truly in love with our hero as well. This internal struggle for Vesper (a so called mental prision I suppose) should have been built up and explored to a greater degree than was reflected in the film./

[Frostyak]

Is it just me, or was the scene immediately before her death, when she reaches out toward Bond right before she dies, one of the most haunting things you've seen in a "action movie" franchise? I guess I felt this way for two reasons. One, they did a great job at developing so that you really felt for them. Secondly, Eva Green's expressions, in every scene, were so memorable.

- Chris

[MarcAngeDraco]

All of these leaps and problems occure because the writers and filmmakers got a little too clever.

I don't think these are 'problems' at all.

Rather I think they've purposely left things that are unclear and questions that are unanswered to lead into the next film...

[wendy54]

I get that in the movie Vesper supposedly made a deal to save James' life, but wouldn't they have had to keep him alive in order to get the password for the account? Or was the organization less concerned about the money at this point? Before LeChiffre is killed he tells Mr. White that he will get him the money...and White replies that "sometimes it's better to know who you can trust.." and shoots him. And what was Vesper's official role? I gathered that she was working for Mr. White in some capacity (to save her lover), but was she there just to keep an eye on Bond? To prevent him from leaving with the money? To actively help Lechiffre win the tournament? And if she knew she had betrayed Bond, did she spend the vacation time hoping that it would all just go away and she wouldn't have to hold her end of the bargain with White? None of that was very clear to me. Any thoughts?

That said, I really enjoyed the movie.

[Tiin007]

I saw the movie twice and there's still something I don't get. Vesper locks herself in the elevator, and Bond struggles and struggles but can't open it. Then, immediately after she drowns, he is magically able to open the door and pull her out?! How was he suddenly able to open it? Didn't she lock herself in?

[iexpectu2die]

I saw the movie twice and there's still something I don't get. Vesper locks herself in the elevator, and Bond struggles and struggles but can't open it. Then, immediately after she drowns, he is magically able to open the door and pull her out?! How was he suddenly able to open it? Didn't she lock herself in?

When, immediately after her death, Bond managed to kick the door open somewhat, I though "oh no", but then he could only fit his arm through, and his desperate reach for her body made the scene even sadder.

I found it really haunting, this scene.

[Odyssey]

LOTS OF SPOILERS - PLEASE TAKE CARE

This may be slightly off topic, but it is still on the subject of Vesper

[Joyce Carrington]

Yes, I believe that could be true.

Learning that Le Chiffre had failed, Mr. White came to do two things: kill Le Chiffre, and get the money back. He promised Vesper he would let the tortured Bond live if she would give him the money.

I'll need to see the movie again, though.

[Odyssey]

Thanks, Joyce! It did seem slightly clearer on the second viewing - and I am fortunate in that I have younger siblings who have to be taken to the movie, so I may have to go at least twice more...

And hopefully some of these strands may be tied up in 22.

[David Schofield]

A few more thoughts to add to the confusions:

1. Why does Le Chiffre tie Vesper in the road knowing full well she could be run over and killed? Why cause Bond to crash, knowing he could be killed and therefore the secret of the money irretrieveable (the novel suffers from the same problem here)?

2. I CAN accept that Vesper is not really being tortured (she shows know physical or psycholical damage later) but merely making appropriate sounds to effect Bond. That being the case, why risk her potential death as described above?

3. But of course, as has been pointed out, why didn't she just wait for Bond to enter his password and have the money trasnfered? The ONLY answer I can come up with here is that Le Chiffre didn't have the time to wait until Bond got round to transfering the cash.

4. Finally, we know Vesper transfered the money to a "holding" account rather than directly to Mr White (M confirms the Treasury have not received it, she goes to collect it from the bank). But WHY do this, why not simply transfer the money straight to Mr White electronically, therefore fulfilling his demands and enabling her Algerian boyfried to be released. She can leave Bond and head back to her boyfriend.