8 replies to this topic

[MystikTK]

Well, OK, maybe some of the effect is lost in several of Gardner's weaker lines at the end, but there are certainly some comparisons which could be made.

It's certainly Gardner's heaviest ending and is similar to OHMSS in the fact that it

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features Bond losing a woman whom he had become emotionally attatched to in a great way. Also, like Tracy, her death was unnecessary, but in a different way - Harriet's demise was more ironic, rather than Tracy's who was simply a casualty of Bond's job.


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So, am I alone in thinking this or is just a case of grasping at straws?

[dee-bee-five]

Well, OK, maybe some of the effect is lost in several of Gardner's weaker lines at the end, but there are certainly some comparisons which could be made.

It's certainly Gardner's heaviest ending and is similar to OHMSS in the fact that it

SPOILERS (highlisght to read)
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features Bond losing a woman whom he had become emotionally attatched to in a great way. Also, like Tracy, her death was unnecessary, but in a different way - Harriet's demise was more ironic, rather than Tracy's who was simply a casualty of Bond's job.


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SPOILERS

So, am I alone in thinking this or is just a case of grasping at straws?

Fraid it's the latter for me. Personally, I'd rather have needles stuck in my eyes than read a Gardner again, but even by his low standards I remember Scorpius as a low water mark. And to mention it in the same breath as my favourite Fleming...!!!

Edited by dee-bee-five, 08 November 2006 - 11:12 PM.

[dinovelvet]

Nah I don't see it. Its a standard middle-of-the-road Gardner book with one plot similarity to OHMSS. If an OHMSS comparison has to be made, I'd say Seafire or COLD are better candidates, with much more personal tragedy for Bond than the events of Scorpius.

[MystikTK]

Yeah, I somewhat figured that mentioning OHMSS in the same breath as any Gardner might be considered blasphemous by some. I just simply hadn't read Scorpius in several years and after taking a look at it sitting over on my book shelf collecting dust, I figured I might as well toss the comparison out there.

I didn't know Seafire featured any personal tragedy for Bond? Don't ruin it for me, though, as I can't remember ever reading it, to be perfectly honest. For that matter, I'm drawing a blank with COLD, as well, although I know I own that one as I'm looking at it right now. Are both worth the read?

Personally, my favourite Gardner's have always been Icebreaker, Never Send Flowers, Nobody Lives Forever, Role of Honour and For Special Services, but I recall liking Scorpius a great deal. Win, Lose or Die was also quite good, although I admittedly put it down about 75% of the way through it (during the Steward's Meeting finale) and haven't picked it up in about 8 motnhs or so.

[Qwerty]

Interesting way of looking at it, MystikTK. I consider Scorpius to be another one of the middle-of-the-road Gardner Bond novels that was somewhat common in the latter half of his era.

Personally, I consider SeaFire to be one of his best (some will agree, others will naturally disagree) and Cold to be one of his worst.

That said, SeaFire (1994) should most definitely be read before Cold (1996). There is a plot element carried between both novels.

If interested: CBn's Looking Back At John Gardner series.

[dinovelvet]

Yeah, I somewhat figured that mentioning OHMSS in the same breath as any Gardner might be considered blasphemous by some. I just simply hadn't read Scorpius in several years and after taking a look at it sitting over on my book shelf collecting dust, I figured I might as well toss the comparison out there.

I didn't know Seafire featured any personal tragedy for Bond? Don't ruin it for me, though, as I can't remember ever reading it, to be perfectly honest. For that matter, I'm drawing a blank with COLD, as well, although I know I own that one as I'm looking at it right now. Are both worth the read

Erm, well, neither of them are particularly great, or among the best of what Gardner has to offer, even, but Seafire sees Bond in a relationship (with the same girl from Never Send Flowers which you mention you have read), and this arc continues into Cold, so its a continuous story of sorts. Kind of odd that at the end of his Bond run, Gardner starts putting some continuity into his stories...

Personally, my favourite Gardner's have always been Icebreaker, Never Send Flowers, Nobody Lives Forever, Role of Honour and For Special Services, but I recall liking Scorpius a great deal. Win, Lose or Die was also quite good, although I admittedly put it down about 75% of the way through it (during the Steward's Meeting finale) and haven't picked it up in about 8 motnhs or so.

I quite liked Win, Lose, or Die, which surprised me because I expected to hate it, I heard the whole thing took place on a ship and that immediately put me off, but I found it to be one of the more gripping reads from Gardner. My favorites of his would be Licence Renewed, Brokenclaw, and Nobody Lives Forever

[MystikTK]

Yeah, I somewhat figured that mentioning OHMSS in the same breath as any Gardner might be considered blasphemous by some. I just simply hadn't read Scorpius in several years and after taking a look at it sitting over on my book shelf collecting dust, I figured I might as well toss the comparison out there.

I didn't know Seafire featured any personal tragedy for Bond? Don't ruin it for me, though, as I can't remember ever reading it, to be perfectly honest. For that matter, I'm drawing a blank with COLD, as well, although I know I own that one as I'm looking at it right now. Are both worth the read

Erm, well, neither of them are particularly great, or among the best of what Gardner has to offer, even, but Seafire sees Bond in a relationship (with the same girl from Never Send Flowers which you mention you have read), and this arc continues into Cold, so its a continuous story of sorts. Kind of odd that at the end of his Bond run, Gardner starts putting some continuity into his stories...

Yes, it's certainly a shame that his heart really wasn't in it by that point.

Personally, my favourite Gardner's have always been Icebreaker, Never Send Flowers, Nobody Lives Forever, Role of Honour and For Special Services, but I recall liking Scorpius a great deal. Win, Lose or Die was also quite good, although I admittedly put it down about 75% of the way through it (during the Steward's Meeting finale) and haven't picked it up in about 8 motnhs or so.

I quite liked Win, Lose, or Die, which surprised me because I expected to hate it, I heard the whole thing took place on a ship and that immediately put me off, but I found it to be one of the more gripping reads from Gardner. My favorites of his would be Licence Renewed, Brokenclaw, and Nobody Lives Forever

I didn't even get through LR, to be honest. I just found it so dull. For Special Services, on the other hand, I thought was a complete turnaround from its predecessor. It still ranks highly for me to this day.

I've never read Brokenclaw (it's one of the only Garder's I can say that about besides LR, Seafire, COLD and TMFB) and that's mainly due all the negative reviews I've heard (the same goes for TMFB).

It's been said a million times that Garder's output was a roller-coaster ride, but it couldn't be more true when you compare him to Benson. I've read all of Benson's material (with the exception of his short stories and I really do owe it to myself to find a copy of BFTP) and I thought they were all fantasic. Actually, I think I've read most of RB's books multiple times, which is something that I can only say about Fleming at this point, although I probably will be re-reading some Gardner's in the near future. That said, like with the actors of the films, I never choose favourites as I believe that each has something different to offer. For me, I can enjoy a good Gardner or a good Benson just as much as a good Fleming, all depending on what I'm in the mood for.

[dinovelvet]

I didn't even get through LR, to be honest. I just found it so dull. For Special Services, on the other hand, I thought was a complete turnaround from its predecessor. It still ranks highly for me to this day.

I've never read Brokenclaw (it's one of the only Garder's I can say that about besides LR, Seafire, COLD and TMFB) and that's mainly due all the negative reviews I've heard (the same goes for TMFB).

It's been said a million times that Garder's output was a roller-coaster ride, but it couldn't be more true when you compare him to Benson. I've read all of Benson's material (with the exception of his short stories and I really do owe it to myself to find a copy of BFTP) and I thought they were all fantasic. Actually, I think I've read most of RB's books multiple times, which is something that I can only say about Fleming at this point, although I probably will be re-reading some Gardner's in the near future. That said, like with the actors of the films, I never choose favourites as I believe that each has something different to offer. For me, I can enjoy a good Gardner or a good Benson just as much as a good Fleming, all depending on what I'm in the mood for.

I agree with you on Benson, his novels were so much more Bond-like to me whereas even the best Gardners were pretty mundane by comparison. Anyway, yes it seems BROKENCLAW is something of an acquired taste (I think its just me, zencat, and marmaduke who give it the thumbs up), but it does have the one villain Gardner wrote who wouldn't be out of place in the Fleming freakshow lineup of villains, which makes it stand out

[AMC Hornet]

Sure, Bond seems to experience the same kind of loss in Scorpius as he does at the end of OHMSS, but there the similarity ends.

Personally, I consider Win, Lose or Die to be Gardner's OHMSS. It is an epic tale that also happens to take place around Christmas time, and Bond seems to be genuinely in love with Beatrice da Ricci. It's a huge story with an audacious plot that dwarfed anything that came after. As it says on the back of the Pan paperbacks of OHMSS, "Ian Fleming has never written anything better." The same could be said of Gardner and WLoD.

Tuppence contributed.